Sorry to hear of your cat. That's enough to make anyone depressed. I, personally, am better off not associating with Witnesses at all because they are so close-minded, and compartementalized (meetings, field service, conventions). Do not forget the constant judging, the conditions, worldly individuals, as well as their brothers and sisters. This alone is enough to drive anyone round the bend. But here you'll have to decide what's best for you. You are fortunate in not having family in, which simplifies matters. And the question is: Did you have real JW friends? I for one, had none. I am all for continuing the counselling, even if the person is not an expert in cults. Speaking about your problems to a neutral individual is always beneficial. And remember, you and your husband are a team. Going together can only strengthen the bond between you.
Posts by Vidqun
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50My mother says I should just DA already.
by Julia Orwell incut the cord.
sever all ties.
start new.. and she's right.
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23
The Bible's approval of slavery (including Jesus)
by rebel8 inhow can there possibly be a reason for this?
smh.
i can't imagine how this is excusable..
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Vidqun
Don't get me wrong. I don't condone slavery at all. But at the same time, I do enjoy studying history. As I have said before, you cannot compare the situation in the first century with conditions today. We live in a different epoch. Firstly, Jesus was not a social reformer, but a religious reformer (Jewry > inclusive; Christianity > universal). Yes, even a slave could become a Christian, which was unusual at the time. Secondly, if Christianity opposed the slave trade during the Roman period, they would have been wiped out. Thirdly, history tells us that the slave trade was only abolished fairly recently, about three or four hundred years ago, with Abraham Lincoln and Co. Would one now condemn all those before the American Constitution was written because they allowed the slave trade to continue? The slave trade might have been abolished then, but as we all know, discrimination would continue to be rife until the time of Martin Luther King. In fact, in the US the policing and legal systems still discriminate against blacks, as the recent social upheavals indicate. And surprise, surprise, the slave trade is still going strong, even though outlawed by most countries. -
114
What is truth?
by Heisenberg inwell, i have been lurking on this site for several months and i recently decided to join as a member.
i have made several observations and would like to make a few comments.. first, i am perplexed by the attitude of many on this site that are either former or active (but apostate) jws.
they seem to have a strong hatred for the wts and also for rank and file jws.
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Vidqun
By the way, I found this little gem, while looking up those scriptures JWs use to disfellowship people. Have you heard of Hymenaeus and Philetus? Paul ordered these men to be shunned. Why? They have deviated from the truth by saying "the resurrection has already occurred." Now where have we heard that before? I'll give you a clue. It has been asserted that this has been happening since 1919. Here's the quote:
15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.
16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness,
17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number.
18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some. (2Ti 2:15-18 NWT)
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114
What is truth?
by Heisenberg inwell, i have been lurking on this site for several months and i recently decided to join as a member.
i have made several observations and would like to make a few comments.. first, i am perplexed by the attitude of many on this site that are either former or active (but apostate) jws.
they seem to have a strong hatred for the wts and also for rank and file jws.
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Vidqun
Heisenberg, thanks for explaining to us your opinion of JW-UN membership. I wish I can dismiss their little mistakes so easily. I am not as forgiving. I live by the motto: You either practice what you preach, or you shut up. Interestingly, Awake-articles from that era glorified the UN, so they must have made some sort of a deal with the UN. Or is it a case of: You cannot belong to the UN as a NGO if you write bad things about them in your literature.
So much for that little mistake. Perhaps you can explain to us the involvement of the JWs with the OSCE? Go to the OSCE's website and see what type of organization it is. The different JW associations are NGOs of the OSCE. JW representatives give talks at OSCE meetings. All for the good of the brothers, of course. And the theocratic warfare-principle allows them to lie about it without blinking or blushing. What a happifying people!
Just a pity if one of the R&F becomes a member of a political party or an organization (like the Y.M.C.A.) that person is disfellowshipped if unrepentant. I see some double standards here, don't you?
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114
What is truth?
by Heisenberg inwell, i have been lurking on this site for several months and i recently decided to join as a member.
i have made several observations and would like to make a few comments.. first, i am perplexed by the attitude of many on this site that are either former or active (but apostate) jws.
they seem to have a strong hatred for the wts and also for rank and file jws.
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Vidqun
Richard, you're right. The Catholic Church and the Witnesses are notorious for their cover-ups. But as had been mentioned here often, because these things are kept secret, the children of JWs are not safe. If you follow Barbara Anderson on Silent Lambs you will realize the extent of the problem. Why? Because most cases are handled internally, they are never sorted out and the victims do not get the necessary counselling or treatment - thus no closure. When they grow up, they will realize what had happened to them, and they will certainly detest the perpetrator as well as those that protected him/her, and rightly so (cf. Mark 9:42).
Acts 15:28 answers your question. "for the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things..." Amongst the necessary things, they would have included the two-witness rule, if it was that important.
That's the difference between a law and a principle. A law must be kept to the letter, whereas a principle should guide one to do what is right when applicable. Certainly it would be advantageous for a second witness to be present, but in the majority of cases there is no second witness. That's where Forensics come in: physical evidence, DNA testing, evaluation of psychologists and psychiatrists, etc.
Unfortunately, the authorities also make mistakes, but their approach is progressive. They follow and apply the findings of the best in the field. They appoint people with the necessary qualifications to do the job. Contrast that to the doings and teachings of the Witnesses. These are stagnant, like the rotton water of a rancid pond, not fit for drinking at all.
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Is this a discussion forum or a debating forum , which is it ?
by smiddy indo you get confused sometimes whether this site is a discussion forum or a debating forum ?.
just asking.
whats your thoughts.. smiddy.
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Vidqun
Thanks Smiddy for the thread. Quite interesting to read eveyone's take on the subject. Terry, thanks for your contribution. Good manners rule! Not only what you say, but how you say it. I also second Blondie's contribution. Discussion - Dialogue - Debate. In a perfect world that would be the answer, similar to the debates on BBC, sometimes heated, yet civilized. -
114
What is truth?
by Heisenberg inwell, i have been lurking on this site for several months and i recently decided to join as a member.
i have made several observations and would like to make a few comments.. first, i am perplexed by the attitude of many on this site that are either former or active (but apostate) jws.
they seem to have a strong hatred for the wts and also for rank and file jws.
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Vidqun
Richard, why is it that churches in general do not fall back on the two-witness rule? First of all, it is part of the Mosaic Law, which had been cancelled by Jesus (cf. Col. 2:13, 14). Secondly, if you look at the context where it was used by both Jesus and Paul, you will see that it has nothing to do with crime, especially pedophilia. Here’s the scriptures. Note the context:
15 Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
(Mat 18:15-16 NWT)
11 I have become unreasonable. YOU compelled me to, for I ought to have been recommended by YOU. For I did not prove to be inferior to [YOUR] superfine apostles in a single thing, even if I am nothing. (2Co 12:11 NWT)
20 For I am afraid that somehow, when I arrive, I may find YOU not as I could wish and I may prove to be to YOU not as YOU could wish, but, instead, there should somehow be strife, jealousy, cases of anger, contentions, backbitings, whisperings, cases of being puffed up, disorders.
21 Perhaps, when I come again, my God might humiliate me among YOU, and I might mourn over many of those who formerly sinned but have not repented over their uncleanness and fornication and loose conduct that they have practiced.
NWT 2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to YOU. At the mouth of two witnesses or of three every matter must be established.
2 I have said previously and, as if present the second time and yet absent now, I say in advance to those who have sinned before and to all the rest, that if ever I come again I will not spare,
3 since YOU are seeking a proof of Christ speaking in me, [Christ] who is not weak toward YOU but is powerful among YOU. (2Co 12:20-13:3 NWT)
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114
What is truth?
by Heisenberg inwell, i have been lurking on this site for several months and i recently decided to join as a member.
i have made several observations and would like to make a few comments.. first, i am perplexed by the attitude of many on this site that are either former or active (but apostate) jws.
they seem to have a strong hatred for the wts and also for rank and file jws.
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Vidqun
Why is the issue of shunning a problem? If the bible was very clear about who should be shunned and how this should be done, would that be more acceptable to you? Human society has always shunned people that do not conform to the rules. If you commit a crime, you may be punished by being sent to jail and excluded from society until you 'repent' by changing your attitude. Who determines these rules? In many lands, adultery and homosexuality are still punishable by death or jail. It is up to each group of people to decide the rules and the consequences for breaking them. Wasn't the great schism of the Catholic church an act of shunning?
Firstly, Paul did not disfellowship those that criticized him, i.e., the so-called “superfine apostles.” Read 2 Cor. 13:10 to see what he had in mind. Interestingly, Paul asked whether some of them had started ruling prematurely (cf. 1 Cor. 4:8)? Secondly, the GB claims to be “the faithful and discreet slave.” Would you say “judgment” is part of the commission of “the faithful and discreet slave”? By the way, is God not the ultimate judge, and did he not defer judgement to the Son (Acts 17:31)?
Allow me to list the main scriptures the GB of JWs apply to judge, condemn and disfellowship individuals. Judge for yourself whether these are applied correctly. Note the one in 2 John deals with the antichrist. How many of those do you know?
15 Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. (Mat 18:15-17 NWT)
9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators,
10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world.
11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.
(1 Cor 5:9-11 NWT)
7 For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward.
9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him.
11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. (2 John 1:7-11 NWT)
9 I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect.
10 That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.
11 Beloved one, be an imitator, not of what is bad, but of what is good. He that does good originates with God. He that does bad has not seen God.
12 Demetrius has had witness borne to him by them all and by the truth itself. In fact, we, also, are bearing witness, and you know that the witness we give is true.
(3 John 1:9-12 NWT)
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62
Your explanation for a total contradiction in the New World Translation.
by Johnny Brown in"for if you publicly declare with your mouth that jesus is lord,+ and exercise faith in your heart that god raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.
10 for with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.
11 for the scripture says: no one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.+
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Vidqun
Jhine, my guess would be that they used the Greek Septuagint most of the time. In most copies the Tetragrammaton had been replaced by kyrios and theos, which would have been part of the Hellenization program instituted by the Seleucids, which the Maccabees fought against. By then Hebrew was effectively a dead language. Aramaic and Greek were spoken by the man in the street. That's why the Aramaic Targums came into being. Mishnaic Hebrew was still spoken by the rabbis and priests, but not understood by the masses. Very few could read or write Biblical Hebrew. The apostle Paul had a rabbinic background, so he would resort under the few. We know he was interested in "scrolls and (ancient) parchments" (similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls, no doubt), for he tells Timothy to bring them to him (2 Tim. 4:13). -
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Your explanation for a total contradiction in the New World Translation.
by Johnny Brown in"for if you publicly declare with your mouth that jesus is lord,+ and exercise faith in your heart that god raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.
10 for with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.
11 for the scripture says: no one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.+
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Vidqun
For those that are interested is this age-old dispute, you should look into the Arian Controversy. According to the evidence, I, personally, would have sided with Arius, which would make me an Arian, therefore a heretic in the eyes of the Church:
The Arian controversy describes several controversies between the priest and theologian Arius and the Church Father, Bishop Athanasius, related to Christology which divided the Catholic Church from before the Council of Nicea in 325 to after the Council of Constantinople in 381 into two opposing theological factions. There was no formal schism, but instead it remained an internal conflict in the Church. The most important of these controversies concerned the substantial relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ.
The early history of the controversy must be pieced together from about 35 documents found in various sources. The Trinintarian historian Socrates of Constantinople reports that Arius first became controversial under the bishop Athanasius of Alexandria, when Arian made the following syllogism: he said, "If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing".
Bishop Alexander of Alexandria was criticised for his slow reaction against Arius. Like his predecessor Dionysius, he has been charged with vacillation. The question that Arius raised had been left unsettled two generations previously. Therefore Alexander allowed the controversy to continue until he felt that it had become dangerous to the peace of the Church. Then he called a council of bishops and sought their advice. Once they decided against Arius, Alexander delayed no longer. He deposed Arius from his office, and excommunicated both him and his supporters, etc. (See Wikipedia)