Vidqun

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Posts by Vidqun

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  9

  Are the rocks and mountains in Revelation 6:16 symbolic?

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  on a recent jw.org video update joel dellinger makes thr case that the phrase " they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “fall over us" in revelation 6:16 is a reference to symbolic mountain like organisation at the time of the end.what do you think?.

  https://youtu.be/y7gzbkcbl8c.

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  Vidqun

  Raymond, I have a different take on the passage. I believe Babylon will be destroyed at the end of the Tribulation according to Revelation chronology. I am definitely closer to your method of exegesis. Here goes, for what it's worth:

  What would be the reaction of the leaders of the nations? Would they rally in support of their people? No, cowardly national leaders and the rich and famous will be fleeing to their well-equipped underground cities and bunkers, leaving the masses to fend for themselves:

  15 Then the kings of the earth, the very important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves [Gr. εἰς τὰ σπήλαια. Lit. into the caves] and among the rocks [Gr. εἰς τὰς πέτρας. Lit. into the bedrock] of the mountains.

  16 They said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,

  17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”[1] (Rev. 6:15-17 NET)

  Most modern translations prefer “among the rocks.” As will be seen, because of John’s Semitic background, he was greatly influenced by the OT prophets.

  εἰς,a preposition governing the accusative: central meaning with focus on entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among .(Danker and Thayer).
  

  εἰς, preposition with accusative, into, in; spatially, denoting motion toward a place, after verbs of going, sending, moving to, toward, into (Matt. 9:7). πέτρα, ας, ἡ literally, living rock, bedrock (Matt. 7:24), in contrast to πέτρος (isolated stone). Friberg.

  World leaders and their following will not only hide among the rocks, they will be sheltering inside them. This is confirmed by the prophet Isaiah.
  

  [1] God’s wrath is directed at all the inhabitants of the earth, especially the proud and the arrogant (Is. 2:10-12, 17, 19-22; cf. Luke 21:35 NET). The question: “Who is able to stand?” is answered in the intercalation of the next chapter (Rev. 7:9, 14).
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  21

  The senseless ''non partakers'' Jesus Memorial

  by RULES & REGULATIONS in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  matthew 26: 18-20 .

  18 he said: “go into the city to so-and-so and say to him, ‘the teacher says: “my appointed time is near; i will celebrate the passover with my disciples at your home.19 so the disciples did as jesus instructed them and prepared for the passover.20 when evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples.. only jesus and his 12 disciples were present at the passover .if jesus wanted observers, he would of had some sit down at his last meal and requested that they be present that day and future passovers.

  why does the wts feel that observers ( non partakers ) need to attend the yearly memorial?

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  Vidqun

  JWs do not like John 6. They insist that the symbolism he uses here, "eating his flesh" and "drinking his blood," differs from that mentioned by Matthew and Paul. But in my mind, it's the same thing. In this instance he was addressing a great crowd, including Pharisees. At the end of the chapter, according to John's recollection, Jesus prophesied about Judas Iscariot, who would betray him, putting the chapter in context. In his Gospel, John did not refer to the memorial again.

  Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Thus, the partaking of the memorial emblems is an identifying feature of true Christianity (cf. John 6:48-54 ESV). I think the above is bad news for those that do not partake.
  
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  32

  Who are the 144,000? Considering the immediate context of Revelation chapter 7

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  who are the 144,000?

  a critical examination of the teaching of the 144,000 from the perspective of an ex jx considering context and other references .this is from a series of videos called new light where i scrutinise all the major teachings of the watchtower.. https://youtu.be/aaseuzr-sxs.

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  Vidqun

  Raymond, I enjoyed your explanation. Like you, I have done a reconstruction of JW Theology. I agree with you, this passage is literal. The number is also important, because John "saw" the number and "heard" the number (Rev. 7:4; 14:1).

  Here's something that you will find interesting. If this is the case and the chapters follow each other in chronological order, then the sealing is to be a future event and the interpretation of JWs is wrong.

  "The transition between aforementioned chapters of Revelation [6 & 7] is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters (Rev. 6:15-17)."

  And as you remarked, the Israel of God must come first. The 144000 is taken out of the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16). That means the Israel of God must come together before the great tribulation, or am I wrong to assume that?
  
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  22

  Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ezekiel 9:4.

  “go throughout the city of jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

  in the script used during old testament times it was either in x shape or a + shape.

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  Vidqun

  Hi Blondie, good to hear from you. According to context, first and foremost application should belong to those earmarked to survive the Babylonian occupation, especially the destruction of Jerusalem. The chapter before discusses the disgusting things being done in the temple. The chapter after describes how God and throne accompaniment abandon Jerusalem. To add to this, there is no reference of this occurrence in the NT. So, to apply this to the individual's survival of this system is a long shot. In my mind it's a case of going beyond the things that were written (cf. 1 Cor. 4:6b). Peter did connect the survival of a person with baptism though, but connecting it to the survival of Noah and family (1 Pet. 3:20, 21).
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  50

  WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

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  https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

  this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

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  Vidqun

  In the past, as today, few engage in critical thinking. The majority prefer to be sheeples, following their leaders, usually to their detriment. However, somebody remarked that those without a strong spiritual grounding (whatever that means) are more liable to follow their leaders for guidance (instead of their conscience). I think if you are born in a situation, it is difficult rising out from it and following a different course in life. One just doesn't know what motivates people, and I'm glad I'm not the judge, deciding a person's fate. I will not know where to start. Most ex-JWs do exercise critical thinking, so we are "more experienced" in it, but we are the exception to the rule and a very small percentage of the whole. That's why I believe Jesus is a good choice as judge, because he has experience being human and will be able to sympathize with our plight.
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  WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

  this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

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  Vidqun

  That's what the quest for truth is all about. Unfortunately we are far removed from the actual events, so one has to rely on the written records. To assess a persons true motive from those is next to impossible. What I do know from Early Church history is that many Christians lost their lives, especially during the rule of Nero, Domitian and Diocletian.

  A great deal of our vocabulary comes from Latin and Greek, so feel free to include them. I believe in the value of word studies and make frequent use of Dictionaries and Lexicons.
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  50

  WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

  this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

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  Vidqun

  Yes, well, it's called politics. Pity that it infiltrated the church. However, this was predicted by Paul (2 Thes. 2:1-12). Till this day the Catholic Church claims the succession of the Popes, from Peter to the current Pope. So each must decide to what extent current teachings and traditions influenced historians, writers and commentators, where to draw the line and what to believe. Opinions will differ, from those that are total sceptics (modern scholarship) to those that believe all the handed down traditions (e.g., Catholics). I find myself in the middle, leaning towards the conservative side. I believe two sayings: 1) "Where there is smoke there is fire." 2) Allow for the benefit of the doubt if at all possible. This is closer to history, so scientific method will not necessarily work. Nevertheless, some of the principles could be applied. In my mind one could elevate one's beliefs up to the "theory" stage.

  Scientific method starts with the postulation of a theory (the word theorem; theory being derived from Greek theoureou ‘I look at, behold.’ See also Greek ‘’ide ‘See! Behold!’ and Latin video ‘I see’) or hypothesis (from Greek hypotithenai to put under, suppose). The process would include astute observation and careful accumulation of available evidence. From these a theory or hypothesis could either be proved or rejected. [To the contrary, preconceived ideas would pose a threat to scientific method. These could prevent objective reasoning to take place, entice one to tamper with the evidence, cause one to adapt one’s data to suit the occasion or to ignore that which contradicts.]

  hypothesis, theory, law mean a formula derived by inference from scientific data that explains a principle operating in nature. hypothesis implies insufficient evidence to provide more than a tentative explanation (a hypothesis explaining the extinction of the dinosaurs). theory implies a greater range of evidence and greater likelihood of truth (the theory of evolution). law implies a statement of order and relation in nature that has been found to be invariable under the same conditions (the law of gravitation). See Webster.
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  WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

  this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

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  Vidqun

  No,Jeffro, not circular reasoning. It's called personal opinion, showing respect to the departed.

  Peacefulpete, actually it has to do with us, and not with God. How often do you read: "Let the reader use discernment," "this is where wisdom comes in" or "here is where intelligence that has wisdom comes in ["This requires a mind that has wisdom," NET], etc. (Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Rev. 13:18; 17:9 NW). Must admit, God doesn't make it easy. A miner has to dig to find hidden gems (cf. Prov. 2:3, 4). These are just two of many examples that I found when I started digging:

  Dan. 12:11, 12 mentions a timeline. 1290 days +1335 days = 2625 days (2520 days + 105 days). This covers a period of 7 years + 3 1/2 months. Dan. 12:1 indicates the context, "the time of distress," later referred to as the "great tribulation." Only at the end of that period will one be happy.

  "Their corpses will lie in the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified." (Rev. 11:8 NET)

  What "great city" is he referring to? Many commentators believe he is here talking about Jerusalem "where their Lord was also crucified." But actually it's more than that. Here he mentioned a symbolic city, called Sodom an Egypt, code for a world alienated from God. This city is mentioned later, where it is completely destroyed (cf. Rev. 16:19). So now when you read about the judgments against Egypt, these are very revealing when applying them to conditions in the world (cf. Is. 19; Ezek. 31, 32).
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  WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

  this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

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  Vidqun

  Polycarp was tortured and burnt at the stake. I can respect a person that takes a stand for what he believes and willing to pay with his life for the privilege. Of course those that came after him, for different reasons, might have added their own tail/tale to the story. There is enough evidence there for me to believe the kernel. For the rest, I have to allow for the "benefit of the doubt," because I was not there to verify such statements.

  May I remind you, that is exactly the type of accusations that the Jews and now modern scholarship sling against Jesus and Christianity as a whole. Jesus was a prophet. His followers concocted the stories of the NT in order to deify him and rally the troops. If you follow that type of reasoning, then not much will remain of your faith.

  I read through the Bible multiple times and can vouch for its veracity. Through study and prophecy I could confirm my findings. As a scientist, I had a problem with the theory of evolution. This forum helped me to work it out. I now know where I stand and what I believe. A appreciate reasonable and constructive criticism. What others say or do beyond that does not concern me in the least.
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  WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.

  this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.

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  Vidqun

  No, in my view MS and factual evidence would be wholly unrelated to interpretation. What I read today and my interpretation would be far removed from the interpretation of, for example, the Church Fathers. Each interprets the Bible in his/her own way, depending on personality, background, schooling and internal/external influences. Polycarp was killed for his faith, one of many. I would never dishonor a martyr by questioning his existence. This according to one of my sources:

  The martyrdom of Polycarp, in 155 or 156, was an example of mob violence, to which Hadrian had been opposed. The occasion was the festival of the Commune Asiae, a notable anniversary of Caesar - worship of which Smyrna was a chief centre. There is good reason to suppose that the crowd, stirred by the ceremonies turned against the Christians as known opponents of the imperial cult, and the Asiarch, Philip, having tried in vain to induce the bishop to acknowledge Caesar as Lord, condoned the action of the mob by ordering Polycarp's execution.

  The account according to Eusebius, a solid and reliable Church historian: The Early Christian Church by J. G. Davies. A lot of information there to write off as mere legend. In a court of law that would have gone down as a "reliable witness," with time, place and an accurate description of events.