Vidqun

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Posts by Vidqun

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  63

  Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.

  — luke 21:24 .

  the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.

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  Vidqun

  I go by the immediate context in Luke and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem. Judah was under vassal kingship long before Zedekiah, first under the Egyptians and then under the Babylonians. Similarly, "seven times" is not the same as "Gentile times," again, different context, kingship vs. fate of Jerusalem, which served as capital of the nation (till the Romans destroyed it). From there the emphasis will be on Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem where Jesus will be made king. If you choose the Babylonian destruction, what date will you take, that of the Witnesses or that of historians? The Witnesses insist on 607 BCE, whereas the majority scolars prefer 587/586 BCE? The latter will bring you to 1934 CE, if I am not mistaken.
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  63

  Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.

  — luke 21:24 .

  the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.

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  Vidqun

  Fisherman, here's my five cents worth. I do not view the "seven times" and the "times of the Gentiles" as the same or mutually inclusive. The first has to do with kingship (Nebuchadnezzar vs. Jesus) and the latter with the trampling of Jerusalem.

  Seven times: The “seven times” has to do with kingship and theocracy (Dan. 4:17; cf. 7:13, 14). This is a follow-up dream of Dan. 2. There Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold (cf. 2:38, 44, 45). In Dan. 4 he is depicted as a luxuriant “world tree,” which is chopped down. The remaining stump is bound with bands of copper and iron until “seven times” pass over it (4:13-16). As a primary fulfillment, “seven times” point to seven days, months or years. Nebuchadnezzar would be out of action for seven times (Dan. 4:23-25).

  If seven times = 7 years, it will allow for a secondary fulfillment. And this is a big "if." Seven years is a long time to leave your kingship unattended. Nothing in history to indicate such a long gap in his reign. If seven times = seven years, then a prophetic year is 360 days (3½ times = 42 months = 1,260 days: Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14). The “seven times” (7 times x 360 = 2,520 days > 2,520 years), would then have started in 607 BCE with the subjugation of Judahite king Jehoiakim by Nebuchadnezzar (2 Kings 24:1; 2 Chron. 36:5-8; Jer. 25:11; Dan. 1:1, 2).

  Here it might be noted that an interesting similarity exists between Nebuchadnezzar and Jesus. At that stage in his life, Nebuchadnezzar was the crown prince and king in waiting. His father Nabopolassar only died in 605 BCE.

  Thus, counting from 607/606 BCE, the “seven times” end in the year 1914 CE when the principle “a day for a year” applies (cf. Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6). The fact that God uses a heathen king as a type of His son is not unusual. In Isaiah, Daniel and Revelation the victorious Cyrus is presented as a type of God’s son and heir (Is. 44:28-45:5; cf. Dan. 9:25; 11:44; Rev. 16:12).

  Times of the Gentiles: Has to do with trampling of Jerusalem. Daniel, a contemporary of Ezekiel, would predict a second destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, this time by the Romans: “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate” (Dan. 9:26b, 27b). This fact Jesus would reiterate in his Olivet discourse: “and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“times of the Gentiles,” ESV, NET] are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24). So, the "times of the Gentiles" start in 70 CE. The “appointed times of the nations” are to be fulfilled when Jesus, who has the legal right, receives his kingship, this time in a heavenly setting (cf. Dan. 7:13, 14; cf. Rev. 11:2, 15, 18).
  
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  19

  Ruining the Earth2.0

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  few years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.

  maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.

  secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.

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  Vidqun

  The prophet Elijah called out a drought for three and a half years (1 Kings 17:1; cf. James 5:17, 18). The public ministry of the two witnesses is 1260 days = 3 1/2 years (Rev. 11:3). And seeing that "Elijah" will again be sent before the "day of the LORD," a parallel can be drawn between the two droughts (Rev. 11:5, 6; cf. Mal. 4:5). That's why I view the three and a half year drought called out by the two witnesses as a literal drought. Not sure whether a limited nuclear exchange will cause such a drought. A rain of nuclear fallout perhaps?
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  19

  Ruining the Earth2.0

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  few years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.

  maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.

  secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.

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  Vidqun

  Raymond, I agree, Revelation is a case of fact being stranger than fiction. But forgive me for not following Hollywood suggestions. I don't know whether you saw snatches of the opening of the Grammy Awards, purely satanic. Thus I do not trust that source at all.

  Sum total of man polluting the planet would be detrimental on the long run, by I think the potential use of nuclear and hydrogen bombs is more applicable here. If the first four trumpet blasts are to be literally interpreted, the destruction of harmful human activity is by then well on the way.

  For me an interesting passage is Gen. 11 with the confusion of languages:

  And the LORD said, "If as one people all sharing a common language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be beyond them. (Gen. 11:6 NET)

  So human development had to be slowed down at that stage. But now we have arrived at a "point of no return" and it has again become necessary for God to act, this time decisively.
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  19

  Ruining the Earth2.0

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  few years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.

  maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.

  secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.

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  Vidqun

  Enough, many commentators believe the great tribulation is to be seven years. Different ways to work it out. I personally go for 3 1/2 (trumpet blasts) + 3 1/2 (plagues) = 7 years. This comes from time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years = 42 months, etc. I use the days of Daniel as confirmation. Some derive it from the last week of the seventy weeks (of years) of Daniel (9:24-27), but I disagree with such an interpretation. I view the latter as a unit.

  Raymond, I appreciate your reminder of Rev. 8:9 but disagree with your conclusion. Certainly God’s wrath is directed at Satan and his demons. But in this instance he is referring to people. Man has indeed reached a point where he can bring literal ruin to the earth. And with his genetic manipulation, he can also change (and ruin) life. He is indeed now capable of completely “ruining the earth,” as well as everything on it. As you might have noticed, the clock of the Atomic Scientists is now at 90 seconds to midnight. Unfortunately, that’s where we are heading, unless God puts a stop to it.

  I agree Pete, context is important. I understand it to mean moral degradation as well as physical destruction. As you mentioned, the same word is used in the LXX at Gen. 6:11. The word here points to immorality as well as violence. It reminds one of present conditions. But what about the immediate context of Rev. 11:18? The angel emphasizes the importance of the seventh trumpet blast:

  5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven

  6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,
  

  7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets (Rev. 10:5-7 ESV).
  

  What is the mystery or sacred secret of God all about?

  15And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever (Rev. 11:15).[Cursive script added.]

  Legally, the world has now become the property of God and His Son, to be incorporated in the kingdom. From this point onwards obedience and subservience to the kingdom would be essential for survival. But how do the majority of survivors of the six trumpet blasts respond and with what result? They would take on God and His Christ. We know the end result:

  18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth (Rev. 11:18; cf. Ps. 2:6-9; Rev. 9:20, 21).

  
  
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  9

  While I don`t believe the Bible about GOD or other religions about a GOD ,I do wonder ?

  by smiddy3 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i do wonder about the universe as we know it .

  it does boggle my mind ,and how such a variety of life does exist on this planet ,from the microscopic to the most advanced life forms.. in such an abundance .?.

  and then looking out there in the universe the multitudes of stars like our sun and planets exist that we have no knowledge of boggles my mind .. so ,maybe i am spiritual in some sense..

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  Vidqun

  Occam's razor.
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  11

  JW's: When EXACTLY did Jesus become king?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought it was in 1914. silly me!.

  w78 3/1 p. 18 par.

  15 - when was god’s son made a king-priest like melchizedek?

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  Vidqun

  What the Witnesses are actually saying, Jesus is in charge and he is to blame for this whole mess we find ourselves in.
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  11

  JW's: When EXACTLY did Jesus become king?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought it was in 1914. silly me!.

  w78 3/1 p. 18 par.

  15 - when was god’s son made a king-priest like melchizedek?

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  Vidqun

  Future occurrence. "And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." (Rev. 11:15 NWT)

  Jesus will govern for a thousand years, after Satan had been abyssed.

  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

  2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

  3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

  4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:1-4 NWT)

  Afterwards he gives the kingdom back to his Father.

  For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.

  26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

  27 For [God] subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.

  28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

  (1 Cor. 15:25-28 NWT)
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  34

  Elders are no longer teachers

  by eyeslice in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  back in the day when i was a young witness lad, you very much got the impression that at least the training as theocratic teachers was good.. even the bible reading back then had a short introduction and conclusion.

  you had to research and prepare your own ministry school talks and then perhaps you would graduate to a half of a 55 minute public talk.

  then later if you were a book study conductor, you got to decide which scriptures to read and highlight.

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  Vidqun

  Who remembers the movie "Those Magnifecent Men in their Flying Machines"? This reminds me of the part when a German training pilot was standing in the cockpit, reading the manual. "Step 1: Sit."
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  21

  Face-Masks - don't stop infection OR transmission!

  by BoogerMan in

  1. social
  2. current

  pores in surgical face-masks = 600 microns.

  coronavirus = between 0.125 & 5 microns.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qomrgfyfdie&t=227s.

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  Vidqun

  BoogerMan, you're right. To demonstrate: