Disillusioned, I cannot fault your historical account. I do differ with
you as to your interpretation of events. Jerusalem used to be the capital
of unified Israel, later of Judah-Benjamin. It housed Jehovah’s temple on Mount
Moriah (2 Chron. 3:1), and the throne of David on Mount Zion (1 Kings 8:1; 2
Chron. 5:2). Thus, Jerusalem would symbolize theocratic government on earth.
After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, the Davidic line of
kings would be interrupted. After the destruction of the temple by the Romans,
earthly Jerusalem would lose its significance. Since its demise in 70 CE, the
name Jerusalem would take on a figurative meaning. The functions of the city
would be transferred. The writer of Hebrews set Mount Zion, i.e., “heavenly
Jerusalem,” as a goal for anointed Christians to strive for (Hebr. 12:22).
Posts by Vidqun
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63Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Vidqun
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63
Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Vidqun
Very interesting observations, Jeffro. As you have discovered we do differ as to interpretation. Here's why:
Daniel was written in the 2nd century BCE.
The above is easy to refute, but this is not the time or place. Suffice to say, Ezekiel had a high regard for Daniel (cf. Ezek.14:14, 20; 28:3).
[Modern scholars view this Daniel as Ugartitic hero named Dan’el, whose life story is narrated in the legend of Aqḥat (dating from about the fifteenth century B.C.).” However, Dan’el was an idol-worshiper, a drunken party goer, contemplating murderous revenge. Ezekiel, a zealous prophet and the son of a priest, would never have used a Baal-worshiper as a paragon of righteousness and purity.]
The author of Daniel refers to oppression by Antiochus IV.
And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. (Dan. 8:11 NWT)
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (Dan. 9:26 ESV)
Would you be so kind as pointing me to a historical or reference work where Antiochus is responsible for destruction of the city and the sanctuary. If so, then I’ll also apply it to Antiochus. While you’re busy with that, apply the following to Antiochus’ life. As far as I know, such a battle never took place and Antiochus died of illness. Place: Fars Province, Iran, somewhat far removed from Israel (Wiki). That's why I exclude Antiochus here.
40 "At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through.
41 He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites.
42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt, and the Libyans and the Cushites shall follow in his train.
44 But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction.
45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him. (Dan. 11:40-45 ESV)
The ‘times of the gentiles’ began with the Roman response to the Jewish revolt in 66CE and culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. Revelation 11 explicitly gives the duration as 3.5 years.
The temple was destroyed by the Romans. At least we ca agree on that. In the NT interpretation of the the new temple is somewhat different to what many expect. The new temple, as well as courtyard, would consist of living stones, i.e., individuals belonging to the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22).
As a descendant of Jeconiah, Jesus would not have the legal right to be king (Jeremiah 22:28-30)
There are three possible solutions to this difficulty. First, the “offspring” of Jeconiah mentioned in the curse could be a limited reference to the king’s own children—his immediate offspring, in other words. On a related note, the phrase “in his lifetime” could apply to the entire verse. The curse would only be in force while the king lived. This is exactly what happened, as Jeconiah was not successful as a king (he only reigned for three months before he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar’s forces), and none of his sons (he had seven of them, 1 Chron. 3:17, 18) reigned over Judah.
A second solution concerns the virgin birth. Jesus only had one human parent, Mary. His mother was of David’s line, but not through Jeconiah (Luke 3:31). Joseph was Jesus’ legal father, but not His physical one. Thus, Jesus was of royal blood through Mary, but the curse of Jeconiah stopped with Joseph and was not passed on to Jesus.
A third possible solution is that God reversed the curse on Jeconiah’s family. This is hinted at by the prophet Haggai, who told Zerubbabel, Jeconiah’s grandson, that God would make him a “signet ring” on God’s hand (Haggai 2:23). Zerubbabel was blessed by God as the governor of Judea, and he prospered in that role when the Jewish exiles returned to Jerusalem. The “signet ring” imagery of Jeconiah’s curse is repeated in Zerubbabel’s blessing, which must be more than coincidence. Several rabbinic sources teach that Jeconiah repented in Babylon and that God forgave him and lifted the curse.“Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii.30; Pesik., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b): he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140]).” Jewish Encyclopedia –Louis Ginzberg, “Jehoiachin,” vol. 7 p. 84.
The following article discusses the Jewish view and Rabbinical quotes, which I found to be interesting.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Vidqun
Menrov, it's called "prophecy." Some believe in it, some don't. For example, the angel told Daniel: "And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come]." (Dan. 10:14 NW). According to John: "After these things I saw, and, look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard was as of a trumpet, speaking with me, saying, Come on up here, and I shall show you the things that must take place. (Rev. 4:1 NW). Most modern scholars reject the concept. For example, these claim the book of Daniel was written ex eventu, i.e., after-the-fact. I, again, understand Jesus to have predicted what would happen to Israel in the near future with similar happenings characterizing the "end of the age."
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63
Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Vidqun
I go by the immediate context in Luke and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem. Judah was under vassal kingship long before Zedekiah, first under the Egyptians and then under the Babylonians. Similarly, "seven times" is not the same as "Gentile times," again, different context, kingship vs. fate of Jerusalem, which served as capital of the nation (till the Romans destroyed it). From there the emphasis will be on Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem where Jesus will be made king. If you choose the Babylonian destruction, what date will you take, that of the Witnesses or that of historians? The Witnesses insist on 607 BCE, whereas the majority scolars prefer 587/586 BCE? The latter will bring you to 1934 CE, if I am not mistaken.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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Vidqun
Fisherman, here's my five cents worth. I do not view the "seven times" and the "times of the Gentiles" as the same or mutually inclusive. The first has to do with kingship (Nebuchadnezzar vs. Jesus) and the latter with the trampling of Jerusalem.
Seven times: The “seven times” has to do with kingship and theocracy (Dan. 4:17; cf. 7:13, 14). This is a follow-up dream of Dan. 2. There Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold (cf. 2:38, 44, 45). In Dan. 4 he is depicted as a luxuriant “world tree,” which is chopped down. The remaining stump is bound with bands of copper and iron until “seven times” pass over it (4:13-16). As a primary fulfillment, “seven times” point to seven days, months or years. Nebuchadnezzar would be out of action for seven times (Dan. 4:23-25).
If seven times = 7 years, it will allow for a secondary fulfillment. And this is a big "if." Seven years is a long time to leave your kingship unattended. Nothing in history to indicate such a long gap in his reign. If seven times = seven years, then a prophetic year is 360 days (3½ times = 42 months = 1,260 days: Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14). The “seven times” (7 times x 360 = 2,520 days > 2,520 years), would then have started in 607 BCE with the subjugation of Judahite king Jehoiakim by Nebuchadnezzar (2 Kings 24:1; 2 Chron. 36:5-8; Jer. 25:11; Dan. 1:1, 2).
Here it might be noted that an interesting similarity exists between Nebuchadnezzar and Jesus. At that stage in his life, Nebuchadnezzar was the crown prince and king in waiting. His father Nabopolassar only died in 605 BCE.
Thus, counting from 607/606 BCE, the “seven times” end in the year 1914 CE when the principle “a day for a year” applies (cf. Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6). The fact that God uses a heathen king as a type of His son is not unusual. In Isaiah, Daniel and Revelation the victorious Cyrus is presented as a type of God’s son and heir (Is. 44:28-45:5; cf. Dan. 9:25; 11:44; Rev. 16:12).
Times of the Gentiles: Has to do with trampling of Jerusalem. Daniel, a contemporary of Ezekiel, would predict a second destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, this time by the Romans: “And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate” (Dan. 9:26b, 27b). This fact Jesus would reiterate in his Olivet discourse: “and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“times of the Gentiles,” ESV, NET] are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24). So, the "times of the Gentiles" start in 70 CE. The “appointed times of the nations” are to be fulfilled when Jesus, who has the legal right, receives his kingship, this time in a heavenly setting (cf. Dan. 7:13, 14; cf. Rev. 11:2, 15, 18).
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Ruining the Earth2.0
by peacefulpete infew years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.
maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.
secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.
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Vidqun
The prophet Elijah called out a drought for three and a half years (1 Kings 17:1; cf. James 5:17, 18). The public ministry of the two witnesses is 1260 days = 3 1/2 years (Rev. 11:3). And seeing that "Elijah" will again be sent before the "day of the LORD," a parallel can be drawn between the two droughts (Rev. 11:5, 6; cf. Mal. 4:5). That's why I view the three and a half year drought called out by the two witnesses as a literal drought. Not sure whether a limited nuclear exchange will cause such a drought. A rain of nuclear fallout perhaps?
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Ruining the Earth2.0
by peacefulpete infew years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.
maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.
secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.
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Vidqun
Raymond, I agree, Revelation is a case of fact being stranger than fiction. But forgive me for not following Hollywood suggestions. I don't know whether you saw snatches of the opening of the Grammy Awards, purely satanic. Thus I do not trust that source at all.
Sum total of man polluting the planet would be detrimental on the long run, by I think the potential use of nuclear and hydrogen bombs is more applicable here. If the first four trumpet blasts are to be literally interpreted, the destruction of harmful human activity is by then well on the way.
For me an interesting passage is Gen. 11 with the confusion of languages:
And the LORD said, "If as one people all sharing a common language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be beyond them. (Gen. 11:6 NET)
So human development had to be slowed down at that stage. But now we have arrived at a "point of no return" and it has again become necessary for God to act, this time decisively.
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Ruining the Earth2.0
by peacefulpete infew years ago i did a thread that i hope has helped some folks.
maybe it is time to 'recycle' it.. did the writer of rev 11:18 (ruin those who ruin the earth) somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation, or did he intend something more in keeping with the bible's general concerns of morality and sin?.
secondly, how does the context help to interpret it?.
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Vidqun
Enough, many commentators believe the great tribulation is to be seven years. Different ways to work it out. I personally go for 3 1/2 (trumpet blasts) + 3 1/2 (plagues) = 7 years. This comes from time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years = 42 months, etc. I use the days of Daniel as confirmation. Some derive it from the last week of the seventy weeks (of years) of Daniel (9:24-27), but I disagree with such an interpretation. I view the latter as a unit.
Raymond, I appreciate your reminder of Rev. 8:9 but disagree with your conclusion. Certainly God’s wrath is directed at Satan and his demons. But in this instance he is referring to people. Man has indeed reached a point where he can bring literal ruin to the earth. And with his genetic manipulation, he can also change (and ruin) life. He is indeed now capable of completely “ruining the earth,” as well as everything on it. As you might have noticed, the clock of the Atomic Scientists is now at 90 seconds to midnight. Unfortunately, that’s where we are heading, unless God puts a stop to it.
I agree Pete, context is important. I understand it to mean moral degradation as well as physical destruction. As you mentioned, the same word is used in the LXX at Gen. 6:11. The word here points to immorality as well as violence. It reminds one of present conditions. But what about the immediate context of Rev. 11:18? The angel emphasizes the importance of the seventh trumpet blast:
5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,
7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets (Rev. 10:5-7 ESV).
What is the mystery or sacred secret of God all about?
15And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever (Rev. 11:15).[Cursive script added.]
Legally, the world has now become the property of God and His Son, to be incorporated in the kingdom. From this point onwards obedience and subservience to the kingdom would be essential for survival. But how do the majority of survivors of the six trumpet blasts respond and with what result? They would take on God and His Christ. We know the end result:
18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth (Rev. 11:18; cf. Ps. 2:6-9; Rev. 9:20, 21).
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While I don`t believe the Bible about GOD or other religions about a GOD ,I do wonder ?
by smiddy3 ini do wonder about the universe as we know it .
it does boggle my mind ,and how such a variety of life does exist on this planet ,from the microscopic to the most advanced life forms.. in such an abundance .?.
and then looking out there in the universe the multitudes of stars like our sun and planets exist that we have no knowledge of boggles my mind .. so ,maybe i am spiritual in some sense..
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Vidqun
Occam's razor.
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JW's: When EXACTLY did Jesus become king?
by BoogerMan ini thought it was in 1914. silly me!.
w78 3/1 p. 18 par.
15 - when was god’s son made a king-priest like melchizedek?
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Vidqun
What the Witnesses are actually saying, Jesus is in charge and he is to blame for this whole mess we find ourselves in.