Posts by Vidqun

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Thanks for the explanation, Sea Breeze. I notice you did not touch on the Scriptures I quoted. I stick to what Jesus said. All Israel will be saved in the sense of the nations as well as individual Israelites (Gal. 3:28, 29). You put your money on the nation of Israel. You will be sorely disappointed, that is if you follow Jesus' words. Israel is lumped among the nations. She will share in their fate. The emphasis has shifted from earthly Jerusalem to Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem. The temple will be built on earth with living stones (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). There's no temple in heaven (Rev. 21:22). So, who will make up the earthly temple?

A remnant of the nations: Hasel, an editor of TDOT, discusses a unique phrase “survivors of the nations” (pelîṭêhaggôyim, Isa. 45:20), which does not refer to Israelites who have escaped from the nations but to an eschatological remnant of pagan nations, who have escaped Yahweh’s judgment. “These survivors of the nations are offered salvation. The historical remnant of the nations is called to become a faithful remnant. They are to turn to Yahweh, the only God (v. 22), for only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength (v. 24). Here the remnant concept becomes universalistic, transcending nationalistic particularism.”

Hasel continues with Joel’s theme of salvation of a remnant: “On the eschatological day of Yahweh, “everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved (mlṭpiel); for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be escape (pelēṭâ), as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors (serîḏîm) shall be those whom Yahweh calls” (3:5[2:32]).

“All who call on God single-heartedly and turn to him will be saved. This passage does not say that Jerusalem/Zion will be saved as one nation among others; it speaks of the deliverance of a remnant, those who are called by Yahweh and are faithful to him. Obadiah also speaks of the day of Yahweh that is near against all nations (v. 15), a day on which the whole world will be judged. Like Joel, Obadiah proclaims: “On Mount Zion there shall be escape (pelēṭâ)” (v. 17).

“The purpose of the actions (judgment and word of revelation) and of the actors (escapees and the prophet) is to bring the people to knowledge of Yahweh. Those who know and acknowledge Yahweh have a future. In Yahweh is salvation.” TDOT, volume XI, pp. 564, 565.

A Jewish remnant: Hasel continues his discussion of the remnant: “Isa. 10:20–23 is the theological locus classicus of the remnant concept. The “survivors (pelēṭâ) of the house of Jacob” and the “remnant (šeʾār) of Israel” (v. 20) are those who rely on Yahweh and do not seek refuge in political powers. They return to their mighty God and trust faithfully in him (vv. 21, 22). The juxtaposition of the deliverance of the faithful remnant and the imminent judgment that spells the end of the nation (vv. 22, 23) means that Israel will cease to exist as a nation, but God will continue to carry out his plan with a faithful remnant.

“The promise of salvation in 37:31, 32 (= 2 Kings 19:30, 31) stresses the growth of the remnant: “The surviving remnant (pelēṭâhannišʾārâ) of the house of Judah shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward. For from Jerusalem a remnant (šeʾērîṯ) shall go out, and a band of survivors (pelēṭâ) from Mount Zion.” This historical remnant provides the basis for the eschatological remnant, which comprises those yet to come who are truly faithful to God. Yahweh will send these “survivors” to the nations, and “they shall declare my glory among the nations” (66:19, 20).” TDOT, vol. XI, p. 563.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, I checked my assumptions. Fleshly Israel, as a nation, is rejected:

Jesus demonstrated it with a parable (Matt. 21:33-45). Jesus ended the parable by saying: “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” (Matt. 21:43)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. (Matt. 23:37, 38; Luke 13:34, 35; ESV)

God’s covenant with them has been annulled. He gives the reason:

10 And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples.
11 So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-- the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter.
14 Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zech. 11:10-14 ESV)

As for Israel, a remnant will be saved, after the full number of the nations had come in:

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 9:27; 11:25 ESV)

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, let’s look at the book of Revelation. It starts off by saying: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,” (Rev. 1:1 NET) He will be showing it by means of visions, containing a lot of symbolism, e.g., the beasts. Here we are reminded: “This calls for wisdom,” i.e., applied knowledge (Rev. 13:18 NET).

Let’s look at the passage under discussion.

Then I looked, and here was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were one hundred and forty-four thousand, who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads (v. 1).

Will they literally have the Father and Lamb’s names on their foreheads? You decide. Where will they be standing? The writer of Hebrews has the answer: “But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-23)

2 I also heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. Now the sound I heard was like that made by harpists playing their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one was able to learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,
5 and no lie was found on their lips; they are blameless. (Rev. 14:1-5 NET)

The song and harps, literal or figurative? You decide. Who are they? These are the ones “redeemed from the earth.” And these “follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” So their qualifications, 1) “they are redeemed from humanity as firstfruits,” 2) “they follow the Lamb wherever he goes” and 3) “no lie was found on their lips, they are blameless.”

That’s why I have a problem with your literal application of 144k male Jewish virgins. Doesn’t fit the Biblical context (e.g., Gal. 6:15, 16), or the book of Revelation (Rev. 5:9,10) or the rest of the passage as demonstrated.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, for a non-literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4:

Often in the OT Israel is referred to God’s wife. When Israel’s leadership runs after false gods or make alliances with enemies, Jerusalem is referred to as a prostitute (Is. 54:5-7; cf. Ezek. 16:15-17, 28).

In this sense, “These are those who did not defile themselves with women [e.g., Babylon the Great], for they remained virgins.” In what sense would they remain virgins. James explains: “You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” (James 4:4) So, if one cultivates a friendship with the world, one becomes an adulterous, enemy of God. Those who remain faithful to God are “virgins” as to world affairs.

As for Israel, referring to all of God’s followers: “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule-- to the Israel of God.” (Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. Romans 10:12 NIV)

60

Sign of the Last Days

by Fisherman in

in the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?

using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?

how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.

Vidqun

Here's one for you, Syd. Not bad for a 2,000 year old prophecy. It's one you can look out for.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up from the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but was speaking like a dragon.

13 He performed momentous signs, even making fire come down from heaven in front of people (Rev. 13:11, 13 NET)

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/capabilities/directed-energy.html

60

Sign of the Last Days

by Fisherman in

in the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?

using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?

how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.

Vidqun

Anony Mous, your definition of worship is too narrow. Greek word for worship extends to deities and kings as well as high officials. I do believe the UN is the best candidate to fill the shoes of the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss). Its mark is a form of totalitarian control and it's plain to see that's what they are working towards. All will be expected to submit to its authority, but not all will comply.

E.g., προσεκύνησα; from a basic sense bow down to kiss someone's feet, garment hem, or the ground in front of him (Friberg).

προσκυνέω (κυνέω ‘to kiss’) impf. προσεκύνουν; fut. προσκυνήσω; 1 aor. προσεκύνησα (trag., Hdt.+. Freq. used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before persons and kissing their feet or the hem of their garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity or someth. holy.) to express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission to a high authority figure (BDAG).

To give one's honour and allegiance to a higher power. To “express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for a higher authority.” See Louw-Nida.

25

What is Self-deception?

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

i googles about self-deception and found many articles about it.

it is a thing reseachers in psychology have studied.. here is a quote from an article that describes it.

and it is interesting because of so many ideas about how to understand the bible.

Vidqun

Here's a few interesting notes on "cognitive dissonance," I believe to be a close cousin of "self-deception":

60

Sign of the Last Days

by Fisherman in

in the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?

using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?

how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.

Vidqun

Anony Mous, there is one interesting exception. All 193 nations are members of the UN. Granted, it is toothless at this stage. But that might not be the case for much longer. As you might have noticed, WHO is interested in a biomedical security setup for the nations. And have you seen the UNESCO guidelines for the training of children in their "International Guidance for Sexuality"? Also most nations have signed the 2030 Development Goals. What will happen to those nations who cannot or will not comply to such "guidelines"?

60

Sign of the Last Days

by Fisherman in

in the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?

using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?

how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.

Vidqun

Perhaps not only look at one aspect of the sign, look at all of them. I would say there is definitely an increase of amount and intensity. Because there's more independent nations, there's more "rebellions." Lots of conflicts over the years, but not world wars as such. Because of the increase in people, millions are facing famine. What is still outstanding is the "terrifying sights and great signs from heaven."

9 And when you hear of wars and rebellions, do not be afraid. For these things must happen first, but the end will not come at once."

10 Then he said to them, "Nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

11 There will be great earthquakes, and famines and plagues in various places, and there will be terrifying sights and great signs from heaven. (Lk. 21:9-11 NET)

32

Sagely advice of a CO

by Vidqun in

“a circuit overseer started out by saying that on this last round of the circuit, the one thing he noticed the most...is that everyone is physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually drained...and that cuts across all barriers and demographics within the truth.

he then said that the one common thread that ran among nearly everyone was this: we feel guilty for feeling bad.

he said because we are told to endure with joy, our minds can cause us to feel enormous guilt over feeling this way...and then, my dear brothers and sisters...he proceeded to blow our collective minds.. he asked us to turn to daniel 8:27….

Vidqun

“A Circuit Overseer started out by saying that on this last round of the circuit, the one thing he noticed the most...is that everyone is physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually drained...and that cuts across all barriers and demographics within the truth.

He then said that the one common thread that ran among nearly everyone was this: We feel GUILTY for feeling bad. He said because we are told to endure with joy, our minds can cause us to feel enormous guilt over feeling this way...and then, my dear brothers and sisters...he proceeded to blow our collective minds.

He asked us to turn to Daniel 8:27…

"As for me, Daniel, I felt exhausted and I was sick for some days. Then I got up and carried out the king’s work; but I was numbed by what I had seen, and no one could understand it."

He asked if we knew what Daniel was referring to, but other than the fact that this was obviously a vision of Daniel's, we had no idea. He then asked one of us to go back to verse 19 and read that verse...and as soon as it was read... suddenly his point came straight into focus…it says:

"Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end."

"Appointed time of the end!" As we all sat there, stunned and awestruck, he told us that here Jehovah had chosen to give Daniel a teeny tiny little sliver of a vision of what WE would have to endure in our day, in the last days...and then he said, "Did anyone notice in verse 27 how it made Daniel FEEL?" We re-read Daniel's words...EXHAUSTED...SICK FOR SOME DAYS...NUMBED...NO ONE COULD UNDERSTAND.

He pointed out that, while it didn't stop Daniel from carrying out the King's work, if that's how that single little TASTE, (in a vision no less), of what we go through every single day was enough to make Daniel feel that way...is it any wonder we feel the way we do LIVING through it?

Jehovah knows what we go through. He knows how hard we struggle.

The loving Circuit Overseer then said that, while we definitely absolutely need joy to serve Jehovah faithfully...we also need balance...and that means acknowledging those negative feelings that we all experience and finding scriptural ways to cope with them.

Jehovah's realistic view on our negative feelings is so encouraging.

And another detail: even after everything Daniel went through, Jehovah, in effect, told him..."Let me give you just a little TASTE of what THEY will have to endure.”

What a way, what a profound method for Jehovah to reach out across time and link his servants together."

***

This encouraging CO talk reached me over WhatsApp, so not sure who gave it or where it's from. The narrator certainly had great admiration/veneration of his CO. Nevertheless, I find the connection between Daniel and the congregation is somewhat of a long shot. Daniel, by then, was very old and he was adversely affected by the visions and not the conditions surrounding him. And such is the depth of their understanding of the prophetic word, they had to compare Daniel's illness with the illness and depression of them "feeling guilty of feeling bad." And please take note, the vaxxes have absolutely nothing to do with the deteriorating health of the brothers. What a cop out!