Yes, I have invested in Bibleworks and Logos. They come in very handy. Yes, I agree. Doesn't help being dogmatic on a shaky foundation. They are still unearthing valuable stuff. You never know, one of these days we might have the answer.
Posts by Vidqun
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30Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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30
Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
Bobcat, some scholars view Darius the Mede as the uncle of Cyrus. As uncle and viceroy and/or vassal of Cyrus the Great, he would have been sidelined in the honor stakes by historians. Nevertheless, as you say, the question of his identity must remain open for the time being. Interestingly, Keil & Delitzsch in their Commentary had the following to say on Dan. 9:1:
Darius given kingship. In the word hâmelake the Hophal is to be noticed: rex constitutus, factus est. It shows that Darius did not become king over the Chaldean kingdom by virtue of a hereditary right to it, nor that he gained the kingdom by means of conquest, but that he received it, (qabeil, Dan. 6:1) from the conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus, the general of the army.
Goldingay mentions that it could refer to a title or throne name: “ Although Zech 1 links Jeremiah’s seventy-years prophecy with the events of 519, which are close to seventy years after the fall of Jerusalem in 587 b.c. , the Darius by whose reign chap. 9 is dated must be not Darius I (Porphyry) but the Darius of Median birth introduced in 6:1 [5:31]. His “being made king” of Babylon here may reflect his “acquiring/receiving” the kingship of Babylon there (and see Setting above). Ahashweros is the regular Biblical Hebrew equivalent of Old Persian Khshayarsha, Greek Ξ ερξης (Xerxes: so Old Greek here; Theodotion transliterates—cf. Revised Version); see Esther; Ezra 4:6. Historically, Darius I was the father of Xerxes I; the order of events in Ezra 4 might have suggested that Xerxes (v 6) preceded Darius (v 24). Khshayarsha, like Darayavaush itself, is probably a throne name, meaning “hero among rulers” (Frye, Heritage, 97), and Wiseman infers that it could thus have been borne by an earlier figure such as Darius the Mede’s father, though it seems a problem with this suggestion that Khshayarsha is a Persian name. In Esther, a Greek translation takes ahhswrws to refer to Artaxerxes, while in Tob 14:15, Ασυηρος (Asueros) denotes Uvakhshtra or Cyaxares the Median conqueror of Nineveh in 612 B.C. (Frye, Heritage, 72–73). He might be seen as Darius the Mede’s predecessor/ancestor/father, and ahhswrws is actually as close a transliteration of Uvakhshtra (Akkadian U-aksa-tar) as it is of Khshayarsha (see W. S. Auchincloss, “Darius the Median,” Biblioteca Sacra 66 [1909] 536–38; Torrey, Journal of the American Oriental Society 66 [1946] 7–8).” [1]
[1] Goldingay, J. E. (1998). Vol. 30: Daniel. Word Biblical Commentary (239). Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 239.
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
I should amend my statement to: “you cannot use words or a language to [accurately] date a document.” Here’s a few problems one needs to look out for in connection with language use in a MS. Few would argue against the fact that many editors were involved with the production of the finished product of the book of Daniel. The Jewish Talmud implies that "men of the Great Synagogue" edited parts of Daniel (also cf. MT with Greek versions). If you do not have an earlier MSS to compare it with, you’ve got a problem with those editorial changes and insertions.
E.g., the complete Isaiah scroll (1QIsa a) from Qumran, is viewed by scholars as a vulgar modernization of the Proto-Masoretic Text. The scribe of 1QIsa a was not interested in a faithful reproduction of the Proto-Masoretic Text. He tried to adapt the material in such a way that the common person would understand. Unfortunately the average person could barely read the Proto-Masoretic Text, let alone interpret it.
In this regard Encyclopaedia Judaica says: “As has been noted above, the average reader was scarcely able to understand the MT properly, and often unable to read it correctly. Therefore, copyists often substituted contemporaneous forms for the original ones even in the case of proper nouns. For example, the form ys`yh, `thyh, representing the type that became common mainly after 586 B.C.E. (the destruction of the First Temple), is used instead of the original ys`yhw, `thyhw which represents the dominant type during the previous period. w'th khl 'lh ydhy `sthh wyhyw khl 'lh(“All these (things) my hand has made”) of Is. 66:2 became w'th khl 'lh ydhy `sthh whyw khl 'lh(“and so all these things came to be (mine)”), etc.
More examples can be found in the efforts of the LXX-translators to make the Old Testament intelligible to their compatriots. This led them to use terms native to their Egyptian and Alexandrian environment, words that had no equivalents in Hebrew. E.g.,, ngshym (“slave drivers”) of Ex. 5:6, 10, 13 became ergodiouktai (“overseers, foremen”), a term familiar to us from the papyri of Hellenistic Egypt.
For the particularly difficult list of fashion novelties in Is. 31:18 - 24, which were strange to the translator, he simply supplied a list of comparable items from his own age and environment. “We cannot call his work here ‘translation’; most of the expressions are substitutes rather than equivalents. Thus the Greek translation often refers to completely different objects, and is useless for determining the meaning of the Hebrew word.”
“Finally we should note the attempt to make ancient words relevant to contemporary circumstances in Egyptian life. In Deut. 23:18 we read: “There shall be no cult prostitute (qdhsh, Greek pornei) of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a cult prostitute (qdhs, Greek porneuoun) of the sons of Israel”. The choice of terms pornei and porneuoun for qdhs instead of hierodoulos already alters the meaning of the passage. Nevertheless, even more significant is the addition: ouk estai telesphoros apo thugateroun Israeil, kai ouk estai teliskomenos apo uioun Israel. The term’s telesphoros and teliskomenos refer to the participation in the Mysteries. As cultic prostitution was a temptation in Hellenistic Egypt. The Egyptian translators felt as justified as the Targumists in linking the text to their time.” [i]
[i] E. Würthwein, The Text Of The Old Testament An Introduction to the Biblia Hebraica, pp. 67, 77.
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
View "Official Aramaic" as a diplomatic language, similar to English and French today. The Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian Empire incorporated different nations and a standard communication medium was needed. Because of the wide spread of the empires, different vassals would also have been appointed to rule the different city states, e.g., Darius the Mede. As was brought out by Bobcat, he could have been any of a number of historical personages, even Cyrus himself. If appointed by Cyrus, he would have ruled under him, and secondary rulers received secondary honors.
Bottom line is, you cannot use words or a language to date a document. Many scholars have tried (and failed). As seen, Official Aramaic existed from 700 - 200 BCE, so the Aramaic or loanwords of Daniel are not good indications of provenance or time of writing. I like Doug's suggestion of chiasms. That would explain a lot of conradictions in the Bible. Also, as was mentioned, many editors were involved in the construction of Daniel, the end product might have been compiled much later.
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Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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Vidqun
I agree with you. That makes me an apostate too! Even when Jesus died he "delivered up [his] spirit" (NW). Funny how JWs squirm when you mention these scriptures.
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Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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Vidqun
Datadog, what gives you the impression that "it" is not in heaven? Don't believe everything you hear at a Kingdom Hall. The following scriptures tell a different story:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, the city31 of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly
23 and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator32 of a new covenant (Heb 12:22-24 NET)
Here the writer of Hebrews mention God, the angels, the congregation of the firstborn [according to the WT, this is the 144000], and Jesus. Now who are "the spirits of the righteous made perfect?" They can't be the 144000. Why would these be repeated? So this is another group. We know Ecc. 12:7 says the spirit returns to God who gave it. Now look at the following passage. Where are these? I believe they are in heaven where the altar is.
9 Now when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?"
11 Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been. (Rev 6:9-11 NET)
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
Official Aramaic, an international language, was spoken in the Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian Court. When the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, few Jews could converse in Hebrew. It was necessary for Jewish leaders to translate their holy writings in Aramaic, from there the Aramaic Targums (cf. Neh. 8:8).
I subscribe to the five-fold scheme for the phases of the Aramaic language as proposed by J. A. Fitzmyer: (1) Old Aramaic, ca. 925–700 BCE; (2) Official Aramaic, ca. 700–200 BCE; (3) Middle Aramaic, ca. 200 BCE–200 CE; (4) Late Aramaic, ca. 200–700 CE; (5) Modern Aramaic, 700 CE-present.
A language shift occurs in chapter two of the Book of Daniel. Dan 2:4b–7:28 is written in Aramaic, whereas the remainder of the book is written in Hebrew. [1] The language of the Aramaic portion of Daniel has certain affinities with that of extra-biblical Aramaic documents of the fourth and fifth centuries BCE and may be thought of as generally belonging to the phase of Aramaic history sometimes called Reichsaramäisch or Official Aramaic.
[1] On possible correlations between BA (Daniel) and the corpus of early Aramaic inscriptional material see the following discussion: Z. Stefanovic, The Aramaic of Daniel in the Light of Old Aramaic (JSOTSup 129; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1992).
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Who left or got stumbled over the 1995 generation thing?
by Julia Orwell inor the 2000's generation thing?.
how did you feel?
how did it help you wake up?
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Vidqun
I allowed the GB to think for me and dictate my conscience. If the GB says so, it must be true. And then I woke up....
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Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
This is what HALOT has to say about "satraps." Although being an Old Persian loanword, it is also found in cuneiform writings and Late Babylonian. So it does not constitute proof of second century writing for the book of Daniel. To the contrary, it rather points to an earlier date of authorship. These administrative terms are predominently Persian and not Greek. One would have expected Greek terms to dominate in a second century MS, while Persian loanwords are well attested in Aramaic papyri of the fifth century.
*’ähhasheddarepan, Or. ’a?š`sub’ea: → Heb. *’athashäda-rpan (Ellenbogen Foreign Words 23 :: HAL 36a; HALOT 37a); loanword < Old Persian Xša<grc>qrapaµvan “protector of the empire” (Kent Grammar §78); also in cuneiform (AHw. 21a); Middle Persian s’trp (Herzfeld Paikuli 706), ?Ìštrp “in monumento Andabani V Susae invento”, see<spa> Parola del Passato </spa>31 (1953), 307); Late Babylonian a?šad(a)rapanu (AHw. 21a; CAD A/1: 195a); > Syr. ?tÌrp’ and ?tÌrpys (Brockelmann Lexicon 469a), corresponding to KBL s?trapa; Greek ( ? ) ξετρ?πη? σατρ?πη? (e.g. Liddell-Scott 1585; Hübschmann Armenische Gramm. 208; Montgomery Daniel 199); Palm. divine name, σατραπη? (for the divine name, cf. Haussig Wb. 1: 287f; J.G. Février La religion des Palmyréniens (1931), 139nd.147; Pauly-Wissowa (Kl.) 4:1566f): pl. det.: satrap Da 3 2f . 27 6 2nd.5 . 7f . †
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Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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Vidqun
JWs are anti-spirit, especially when it is mentioned in connection with a human. See how they translate (and interpret) the following scriptures:
7 Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7 NWT)
30 When, now, he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, It has been accomplished! and, bowing his head, [he stopped breathing, footnote “delivered up the breath (spirit) NWT1950] he delivered up [his] spirit. (Joh 19:30 NWT)
22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,
23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and [to the spirits of the righteous, NET] the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, (Heb 12:22, 23 NWT)
6 And he said to me, These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets [God of the spirits of the prophets, NET] sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. (Rev 22:6 NWT)