Posts by Vidqun

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, let’s rather say, replacement theology emphasizes a few fundamental verses which place all other passages and verses in clear perspective. Those are some of the verses I quoted. E.g., if someone says Enoch and Elijah went to heaven, then there’s just one verse needed to cancel such a statement and that is Jesus’ words at John 3:13. End of story.

I am about to test the generalization of Gal. 6:16 according to your Bible scholars. Let’s first look at the meaning of καί.

ΚΑ´Ι Conjunction, used in two principal senses, either copulative, to join words and sentences, and, Lat. et; or making a single word or clause emphatic, also, even, Lat. etiam.

A. copulative, and, merely joining words or sentences.

B. influencing single words or clauses, also, even, Lat. etiam, ἔπειτά με καὶ λίποι αἰών then let life also forsake me, i.e. life as well as all other goods, Il.; καὶ αὐτοί they also, they likewise, Xen.; εἴπερ τισκαὶ ἄλλος Plat., etc. Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon (abridged).

3169 καί conj. and, also, but, even; that is, namely; καὶ . . . καί both . . . and, not only . . . but also; frequently used merely to mark the beginning of a sentence (UBS Lex).

How does the majority of scholars and editors interpret the “Israel” of Gal. 6:16?

Ἰσραήλ, ο: figuratively, of Christians as the new covenant people of God Israel (Gal. 6.16). See ANLEX.

ὁ Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ (genitive of possession), i. e. Christians, Gal. 6:16 (See Thayer).

of Christians as participants in the privileges of Israel Ro 9:6b; Gal 6:16. [pg 95] (See Gingrich Lex).

believers within God’s promise system as authentic Israelites Ro 9:6b; Gal 6:16. (See Danker Lex).

After Deutero-Isaiah and Ezra, many attempts were made to define the true Israel. Paul speaks of Christians as the true “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). See Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible.

And here’s an interesting and balanced discussion of “Israel” of Gal. 6:16:

There is widespread agreement that the Pauline reference to the Israel of God (Gal 6:16) refers to Christians, either to Jewish Christians as distinguished from other Christians by the copula καί (Schrenk) or — by means of the epexegetical function of καί — to all Christians, as in the preceding discussion. Neither explanation is, however, totally satisfactory, for, on the one hand, nothing indicates a limitation of the saying to Jewish Christians (Dahl, et al., against Schrenk); on the other hand, it is evident that "addition of καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ . . . (widens) the circle of addressees" (F. Mussner, Gal [HTKNT] 417). A possible explanation is offered in the extension of the greeting of peace (cf. H. Lietzmann and W. G. Kümmel, 1-2 Cor [HNT, 51969] on 1 Cor 1:2b!) to "the total Israel of God, wherever they may be" (H. Schlier, Gal [KEK] 283). But one may not exclude the possibility that here the original Israel comes into view (D. Lührmann, Gal [ZBK] 102), either in its portion which does not yet believe, but will come to faith in the future — "an Israel (of God) within (all) Israel" (Richardson 82; similarly: E. D. Burton, Gal [ICC] 357f.) — or (more probably) the same as the πᾶς Ἰσραήλ of Rom 11:26 (Mussner, Gal 417n.61). See EDNT.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, I believe you answered those questions yourself.

Your definition of Israel: The Republic of Israel, member of the United Nations, etc. God's covenant with them annulled (Zech. 11:10). Jesus said: "Your house has been abandoned to you," and "The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matt. 21:43; 23:38)

My definition of Israel: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female– for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:28-29 NET)

So, it's not a question of literal or symbolic. It has to to do with obedience and doing God's will.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, according to your timetable the rapture is imminent. Therefore we do not have to wait too long to see whether it materializes. As for the grafting in, yes, individual Israelites will be grafted in after the full number of the nations had come in. The Bible calls these the remnant.

As explained, the first resurrection will not be simultaneous but will take place in stages (Matt. 24:31; Rev. 11:11, 12, 15, 18).

That is not exactly what scripture says. It says we are not appointed to wrath (period). Jesus is not a wife-beater.

Not sure where the wife-beater part fits in. But here is what the Scriptures do say. First of all, the sealed ones will not be harmed by God’s judgments of trumpet blasts or plagues (e.g., Rev. 9:4; cf. 16:2). Secondly, they will be persecuted by the powers that be:

42 month trampling of temple courtyard: The outer courtyard of the temple sanctuary i.e., a part of the Israel of God, is to be trampled by the nations for 42 months (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 11:2; cf. Dan. 7:25; 12:7; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 2:21, 22).

1,260 day ministry and death of the two prophets: The two prophets will be prophesying for 1,260 days. As seen, their public ministry will start immediately after the sixth trumpet blast (Rev. 9:13; 11:3). 1,260 days will then overlap with the 42 months of trampling, which starts in the middle of the Tribulation period.

Time, times and half a time: Under the auspices of the eleventh horn of Daniel’s fourth beast, God’s holy ones will be harassed or worn down for three and a half years. These will actually be under the control of the horn for the duration of this time (cf. Rev. 11:2). The horn follows in the footsteps of the beast with one of its heads having received a death-stroke that healed. Its authority to act was also to be 42 months (13:2, 5, 7). However, Daniel’s “time, and times and half a time” covers the second half of the Tribulation because at the end of it the horn is destroyed.

Last, but not least, is Daniel 8. I believe it points to the near future. The angel Gabriel informs Daniel: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end” [“the end time,” NAB] (Dan. 8:17b). Gabriel continues: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part [’acharith] of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.” Note, the sanctuary will only be restored at the end of the 2,300 evening-morning time period.

10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.

11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.

12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state." (Dan. 8:10-14 ESV)

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

I'm with Duran in this instance. All believers on earth at the time will have to go through the GT:

1) Fleshly Israel has been replaced by the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16).

2) God’s people are destined to escape His wrath, but not the persecution heaped upon them by the beasts and their followers.

3) Those caught up in the air will have no advantage over those involved in the first resurrection. Although the time frame for their ascent will differ, they will have the same reward. First group will be part of the first resurrection, after the seventh trumpet blast (Rev. 11:15, 18). The two witnesses, part of the first group, will be publically resurrected after the pouring out of the fifth plague (Rev. 9:11; 11:3, 11, 12; 16:10, 11). Second group will be taken up after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31). In the same way they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:15-17 CSBO). The natural sequence of Matt. 24 also places the rapture after the tribulation (Matt. 24:30, 40, 41).

4) Luke exempts no one alive on earth from the Tribulation. To escape it, you had to be part of it (Luke 21:34-36). Paul reasons: “Moreover, if anyone contends even in the games, he is not crowned unless he has contended according to the rules” (2 Tim. 2:5; cf. 1 Cor. 9:24, 25).

5) Relief for Christians will only come after the Tribulation. This Paul confirms: “This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels” (2 Thes. 1:6, 7).

6) Only the Philadelphian Christians are allowed to escape “the hour of test.” This does not refer to the Great Tribulation, but a unique test they had to endure (Rev. 3:10; cf. Matt. 24:21).

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Duran, I agree with PetrW. Question is: When is the sealing to take place? Here's a few interesting facts about the sealing process. Jesus as God’s firstborn, would have been personally sealed by his Father during his ministry on earth (John 6:27; Col. 1:15). Afterwards his intimate disciples, including Paul, would have been sealed (2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

As to the actual sealing of the 144,000, I believe it is still future. The transition between chapters 6&7 of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰτοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters. This must still take place. It would be presumpteous to claim that you are one of the 144,000, like those in the Society do.

What helped me to establish a foundation to build my faith is a study of the prophecies. Peter said: "Pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet. 1:19-21 ESV)

All are interested in the future. The angel told Daniel one of the reasons of prophecy is "to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come." (Dan. 10:14 ESV). John in Revelation was invited to view future visions: "After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." (Rev. 4:1 ESV)

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Thanks for the explanation, Sea Breeze. I notice you did not touch on the Scriptures I quoted. I stick to what Jesus said. All Israel will be saved in the sense of the nations as well as individual Israelites (Gal. 3:28, 29). You put your money on the nation of Israel. You will be sorely disappointed, that is if you follow Jesus' words. Israel is lumped among the nations. She will share in their fate. The emphasis has shifted from earthly Jerusalem to Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem. The temple will be built on earth with living stones (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). There's no temple in heaven (Rev. 21:22). So, who will make up the earthly temple?

A remnant of the nations: Hasel, an editor of TDOT, discusses a unique phrase “survivors of the nations” (pelîṭêhaggôyim, Isa. 45:20), which does not refer to Israelites who have escaped from the nations but to an eschatological remnant of pagan nations, who have escaped Yahweh’s judgment. “These survivors of the nations are offered salvation. The historical remnant of the nations is called to become a faithful remnant. They are to turn to Yahweh, the only God (v. 22), for only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength (v. 24). Here the remnant concept becomes universalistic, transcending nationalistic particularism.”

Hasel continues with Joel’s theme of salvation of a remnant: “On the eschatological day of Yahweh, “everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved (mlṭpiel); for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be escape (pelēṭâ), as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors (serîḏîm) shall be those whom Yahweh calls” (3:5[2:32]).

“All who call on God single-heartedly and turn to him will be saved. This passage does not say that Jerusalem/Zion will be saved as one nation among others; it speaks of the deliverance of a remnant, those who are called by Yahweh and are faithful to him. Obadiah also speaks of the day of Yahweh that is near against all nations (v. 15), a day on which the whole world will be judged. Like Joel, Obadiah proclaims: “On Mount Zion there shall be escape (pelēṭâ)” (v. 17).

“The purpose of the actions (judgment and word of revelation) and of the actors (escapees and the prophet) is to bring the people to knowledge of Yahweh. Those who know and acknowledge Yahweh have a future. In Yahweh is salvation.” TDOT, volume XI, pp. 564, 565.

A Jewish remnant: Hasel continues his discussion of the remnant: “Isa. 10:20–23 is the theological locus classicus of the remnant concept. The “survivors (pelēṭâ) of the house of Jacob” and the “remnant (šeʾār) of Israel” (v. 20) are those who rely on Yahweh and do not seek refuge in political powers. They return to their mighty God and trust faithfully in him (vv. 21, 22). The juxtaposition of the deliverance of the faithful remnant and the imminent judgment that spells the end of the nation (vv. 22, 23) means that Israel will cease to exist as a nation, but God will continue to carry out his plan with a faithful remnant.

“The promise of salvation in 37:31, 32 (= 2 Kings 19:30, 31) stresses the growth of the remnant: “The surviving remnant (pelēṭâhannišʾārâ) of the house of Judah shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward. For from Jerusalem a remnant (šeʾērîṯ) shall go out, and a band of survivors (pelēṭâ) from Mount Zion.” This historical remnant provides the basis for the eschatological remnant, which comprises those yet to come who are truly faithful to God. Yahweh will send these “survivors” to the nations, and “they shall declare my glory among the nations” (66:19, 20).” TDOT, vol. XI, p. 563.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, I checked my assumptions. Fleshly Israel, as a nation, is rejected:

Jesus demonstrated it with a parable (Matt. 21:33-45). Jesus ended the parable by saying: “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” (Matt. 21:43)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. (Matt. 23:37, 38; Luke 13:34, 35; ESV)

God’s covenant with them has been annulled. He gives the reason:

10 And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples.
11 So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-- the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter.
14 Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zech. 11:10-14 ESV)

As for Israel, a remnant will be saved, after the full number of the nations had come in:

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 9:27; 11:25 ESV)

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, let’s look at the book of Revelation. It starts off by saying: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,” (Rev. 1:1 NET) He will be showing it by means of visions, containing a lot of symbolism, e.g., the beasts. Here we are reminded: “This calls for wisdom,” i.e., applied knowledge (Rev. 13:18 NET).

Let’s look at the passage under discussion.

Then I looked, and here was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were one hundred and forty-four thousand, who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads (v. 1).

Will they literally have the Father and Lamb’s names on their foreheads? You decide. Where will they be standing? The writer of Hebrews has the answer: “But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-23)

2 I also heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. Now the sound I heard was like that made by harpists playing their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one was able to learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,
5 and no lie was found on their lips; they are blameless. (Rev. 14:1-5 NET)

The song and harps, literal or figurative? You decide. Who are they? These are the ones “redeemed from the earth.” And these “follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” So their qualifications, 1) “they are redeemed from humanity as firstfruits,” 2) “they follow the Lamb wherever he goes” and 3) “no lie was found on their lips, they are blameless.”

That’s why I have a problem with your literal application of 144k male Jewish virgins. Doesn’t fit the Biblical context (e.g., Gal. 6:15, 16), or the book of Revelation (Rev. 5:9,10) or the rest of the passage as demonstrated.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

Vidqun

Sea Breeze, for a non-literal interpretation of Rev. 14:4:

Often in the OT Israel is referred to God’s wife. When Israel’s leadership runs after false gods or make alliances with enemies, Jerusalem is referred to as a prostitute (Is. 54:5-7; cf. Ezek. 16:15-17, 28).

In this sense, “These are those who did not defile themselves with women [e.g., Babylon the Great], for they remained virgins.” In what sense would they remain virgins. James explains: “You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” (James 4:4) So, if one cultivates a friendship with the world, one becomes an adulterous, enemy of God. Those who remain faithful to God are “virgins” as to world affairs.

As for Israel, referring to all of God’s followers: “Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule-- to the Israel of God.” (Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. Romans 10:12 NIV)

60

Sign of the Last Days

by Fisherman in

in the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?

using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?

how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.

Vidqun

Here's one for you, Syd. Not bad for a 2,000 year old prophecy. It's one you can look out for.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up from the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but was speaking like a dragon.

13 He performed momentous signs, even making fire come down from heaven in front of people (Rev. 13:11, 13 NET)

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/capabilities/directed-energy.html