Posts by Vidqun

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

· Literary Style: Revelation employs symbolic language and imagery. The shift might be a literary device to create a specific effect.

Hiddensevant, you’re right in the first instance. On the other hand, the shift might just be part of normal Koine. I know of no-one making such a distinction or placing special emphasis on the collective singular and plural used in the same passage. I see it was quite frequently used in Hebrew, and with John’s Semitic background, it follows that he would have used it as part of his speech:

Number is a grammatical feature of nouns that does not always correspond to extra-linguistic reality. For example, collective nouns are singular nouns that refer to more than one object, e.g. עוֹף (birds) and הָעָם (the people).

Christo Van der Merwe et al., A Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar, electronic ed. (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1999), 182.

. גְּוִיָּה n.f. body, corpse — 1. living human body (sg., of many persons); of man in Daniel’s vision (body apart from extremites); also of the living creatures in Ezek.’s vision. 2. dead body, corpse, carcass: a. of man (sg. of several persons); collective; b. of lion.

Richard Whitaker et al., The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament: From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver and Charles Briggs, Based on the Lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius (Boston; New York: Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1906).

You stick to AI, I stick to reliable sources. I go for the two witnesses displaying the spirit of Moses and Elijah. They will function as God’s spokesmen, similar to Moses and Aaron (Rev. 11:3-6; cf. Ex. 4:10-16). Based on the miracles they are to perform, they will be like Elijah (commanding fire to devour enemies and shutting up the sky so that it does not rain, Rev. 11:5, 6; cf. 1 Kings 17:1; 2 Kings 1:10–14; James 5:17), and Moses (water turned to blood, the earth smitten with every plague, Rev. 11:6; cf. Exod. 7:20; 9:14; etc.). At this stage we do not know the identity of the two witnesses, so you are allowed the benefit of the doubt. But it’s going to be a hard act to follow with an unpleasant outcome. Time will tell whether you are chosen and have what it takes.

However, I do think your thinking will remain stunted by clinging to the Watchtower as God’s chosen nation. You’ll have to broaden your horizons. At this stage, JWs don’t feature at all. Jesus said: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day” (John 6:53, 54 NWT). This means that the majority of Witnesses 'have no life in themselves.'

As to the sealing of the 144,000, according to the context, it is to be a future occurrence. The transition between chapter 6 and 7 of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰτοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters. Those claiming to be of the anointed are either liars or seriously deluded. If you insist on following their tenets, be my guest, but I see no future in them or their organization.

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

Hiddenservant, nothing unusual with the Greek singular in this case. It's actually called a collective singular:

Rev. 11:8f (τὸ πτῶμα αὐτῶν in vss. 8 and 9a, τὰ πτώματα αὐτῶν 9b). See BDAG. In the NT is confined to its late sense (cf. Rutherford NP p. 472 f.) of “a dead body”: cf. the collective sing., as in Rev 11:8.

The collective singular occurs in many languages, especially Hebrew, but also in English:

A noun in the singular may denote a number of persons or things: ὁ Μῆδος the Medes Thucydides 1. 69, τὸ Ἑλληνικόν the Greeks 1. 1, τὸ βαρβαρικόν the barbarians 7. 29, ἡ πλίνθος the bricks 3. 20, ἵππον ἔχω εἰς χῑλίᾱν I have about a thousand horse Xenophon Cyropaedia 4. 6. 2, μῡρίᾱ ἀσπίς ten thousand heavy armed Xenophon Anabasis 1. 7. 10. On the plural verb with, see 950. Cp. 1024, 1044.

Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges (New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company, 1920), 269.

Furthermore, I think you're reaching with the two olive trees and two lampstands. These should be viewed within the context of Zerubbabel and Joshua. Your argument reminds me of the Trinitarian controversy: 1+1+1 = 1. You: 1 + 1 = 1, totally illogical. If you imagine yourself as one of the two witnesses, I'm afraid you'll have to look for a partner.

Yes, a great deal of Revelation is symbolic. The rest of us need to logically study, compare and view the context. Talking of "city," how do you interpret "the great city" and "the holy city" of Rev. 11? There's an important distinction there.

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

We read of the transfiguration in the Synoptic Gospels, the import of the occasion suggested by the fact that it appears at length in Matthew (16:27-17:13), Mark (9:1-13) as well as Luke (9:27-36). The accounts were confirmed by Peter (2 Peter 1:16-18).Those accounts suggest we are to look out for two persons, and not one. Additional reasons to follow:

Nowhere in Revelation do we have an example of two for the price of one. Not only are these real persons, but also there is no reason to believe that there are more than two or fewer than two. Why? (1) In Jewish law two witnesses were sufficient to establish a fact (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15; cf. Matt. 18:16; John 8:17; Heb. 10:28). Since in the Old Testament context the two witnesses are literal persons, not symbolic of a larger group of people, the same is probably the case in Revelation 11. (2) Other numbers in the immediate context (Rev 11) are best understood as literal, and so these should be also. References are made to forty-two months (v. 2), 1,260 days (v. 3), two olive trees and two lampstands (v. 4), three and one-half days (vv. 9, 11), one-tenth of the city (v. 13), seven thousand people (v. 13), second and third woes (v. 14), a seventh angel (v. 15), and twenty-four elders (v. 16).

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

Hiddenservant, I am sure you, as special representative of Jehovah, is familiar with the two witnesses of Revelation. As witnesses they will be warning the populace of the coming plagues. As prophets they will prophesy against God’s enemies. The scriptures you quoted (Mal. 3:1; Matt. 17:11) actually applies to them. According to the natural progression of the book of Revelation, they are to start their public ministry during the great tribulation, i.e., after the sixth trumpet blast. Interestingly, they will also be temple builders, similar to Zerubbabel and Joshua (Rev. 11:4; cf. Zech. 4:14). They will assist in completing God’s temple with living stones (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). Perhaps we should wait for them to clear the way and not run ahead.

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

First of all, what should be kept in mind, the book of Daniel has been sealed to this day (cf. Dan. 12:4), so one cannot be dogmatic as to one’s interpretation. Regarding the Seventy Weeks Prophecy, there are countless opinions as to its interpretation and calculation. Evangelical Christians see v. 27 as taking place in the great tribulation with the rebuilding of the temple and the False Messiah or antichrist making a covenant with the Jews. An important reason why the seventy weeks of years should not be split up, to counter such overactive and dangerous imaginations.

Recently some scholars assert that Jesus was killed in 30 CE and not 33 CE. However, the earthquake activity, as analyzed by the German Research Center for Geosciences, convinced me to stick to Hoehner’s interpretation (give or take a day or two) until such time when evidence comes to the fore that forces me to change my mind (Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ; Part VI: Daniel’s Seventy Weeks and New Testament Chronology,” pp. 47-65).

To analyze ancient earthquake activity in Palestine, geologist Jefferson Williams of Supersonic Geophysical and colleagues Markus Schwab and Achim Brauer of the German Research Center for Geosciences, studied three cores from the beach of the Ein Gedi Spa adjacent to the Dead Sea. Varves, which are annual layers of deposition in the sediments, reveal that at least two major earthquakes affected the core: a widespread earthquake in 31 BCE, and a seismic event that happened sometime between the years 26 and 36 CE. The latter period occurred during “the years when Pontius Pilate was procurator of Judea and when the earthquake of the Gospel of Matthew is historically constrained,” Williams said. When data about the Jewish calendar and astronomical calculations are factored in, a handful of possible dates result for Jesus’ death, with Friday, April 3, 33 CE, being the best match, according to the researchers.

As to the format of vv. 26, 27, the verses correspond. This is how I see it:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. [Messiah]

And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. [Romans]

27 And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. [Messiah]

And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate. [Romans] (Dan. 9:26, 27 NWT)

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

Hiddenservant, the future of Jerusalem is absolutely part of the prophecy. View it as a case of cause and effect. Jerusalem and the temple would become irrelevant when Jesus presented his superior sacrifice to his Father. He would prolong the covenant for Jew and Samaritan for one week (Dan. 9:27a). At the half of the week he would cause sacrifice and offerings to cease (Dan. 9:27b; Heb. 9:12; 10:12 NET). Thus, from that moment onwards Jerusalem would lose its privilege to be the city of the great king (cf. Matt. 5:35). The temple precint and the sacrifices offered there would also become irrelevant. The emphasis would now fall of Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem (Hebr. 12:22). So whether the demise of Jerusalem and the temple happened within the week or not, these would play no further part in God's purpose.

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

Vidqun

Quite a few scholars suggest that the seventy weeks of Daniel should be split in 69 weeks + 1 week. After 69 weeks of years had elapsed, the Messiah will appear. He will then be cut off with nothing for himself (Dan. 9:24-26a). The final week of seven years, these insist, will only take place during the Great Tribulation, the leader or prince being a false messiah or antichrist (Dan. 9:26b, 27).

A major obstacle, contradicting such a view, is the use of masculine “weeks” in the Hebrew text of Dan. 9:24. This means that the seventy weeks should be viewed as a unit, and not as individual fragments. The Seventy Weeks Prophecy has all to do with the first appearance of the Messiah and the siege of Jerusalem (cf. Luke 21:20-22).

Hebrew "sevens" or "weeks": שָׁבעֻיִם . The noun שָׁבעֻיִם ("weeks") in Daniel 9:24 is masculine plural. Only in Daniel does the masculine plural of this word occur (9:24, 25 [twice], 26; 10:2, 3); elsewhere in the Old Testament the feminine plural is used. As has been documented by major biblical Hebrew grammars, in cases of double-gender plurals the masculine ending ים ◌ִ—stresses totality, fullness, wholeness, and entirety, whereas the feminine plural ending וֹת —stresses constituent parts. Thus, according to Hasel (following Joüon and Muraoka), שׂ דֶָח ("field") with the feminine plural ending means "individual fields, individual farms," whereas with the masculine plural ending it has the more comprehensive sense of "fields, countryside" in a more unitary sense. Likewise, the noun אֲלמֻּ ה ("sheaf") with the masculine plural ending refers to sheaves in general, whereas with the feminine plural ending it refers to individual sheaves. Applying this distinction to Daniel 9:24, one would expect that since the masculine plural ending is used the seventy weeks are viewed as a total unit, stressing completeness and unity. The feminine form, on the other hand, would have emphasized the individual weeks of the period under discussion. This emphasis on totality in turn helps explain why the verb "has been determined" in verse 24 is singular, even though the subject ("weeks") is plural. On the basis of the morphology of the plural ending of the word "weeks" Hasel says, "It is inappropriate from the linguistic and syntactical point of view to separate the sum total of the ‘seventy-week’ period of time into sixty-nine weeks that are continuous and a last week that is separated from them by a ‘gap,’ ‘parenthesis,’ or some other time element which places the seventieth week in the future" (p. 118). Rather, he states, "the masculine plural form šāb̠uʿîm in Dan 9:24 is employed to emphasize the sum total of the ‘seventy weeks’ as a complete and uninterrupted span of time" (p. 117).

Daniel’s Seventy Weeks Prophecy predicts the appearance of the Messiah on earth as Jehovah God’s king designate. It also envisages the destruction of the Jewish system by the Romans, and the levelling of Jerusalem and its temple. It has to do with the suffering of the Jews in 70 CE. Jesus did compare conditions in Jerusalem during the Roman siege to conditions on earth during the Great Tribulation (Luke 21:20-25). The suffering of the Jews trapped in Jerusalem could be viewed as a precedent of what is to come.

"The Hebrew Masculine Plural for ‘Weeks’ in the Expression ‘Seventy Weeks’ in Daniel 9:24," Gerhard F. Hasel, Andrews University Seminary Studies 31 (1993): pp. 105-118.

62

The Vaccine mandate has been lifted, with no explanation or apologies

by redsetter2 in

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Vidqun

Riley, if you are up to date with your vaccine program, you should be on your 9th booster by now, that is according to CDC guidelines. Why do you think that is? That's because you don't get herd immunity by vaccinating people during an endemic. You get herd immunity by not vaccinating. Those with good natural immunity sterilizes the virus. No virus means no transmission. Leaky vaccines cause variants to arise and mRNA producers can never keep up with the new variants. They will always be one step behind.These do not stop transmission either. What did stop the virus was Omicron, a mild but dominating variant with flu symptoms. Nothing to do with mRNA vaccines.

Just throwing it out there for Riley.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Boccur makes an interesting case. But he'll have to do better than that to convince me to substitute an OG reading for a MT reading. There's a reason why Theodotion's version of Daniel supplanted the OG version. And if we get into the identity of Father and Son and the Trinitarian controversy, that would take us into the first few Christian centuries, which is very late in the game. Here's Dan. 7:13, 14 in the Gottingen Septuagint, the phrase in question glaring in its absence. Who am I to question such specialists?

13 om. τῆς νυκτός 62′ | μετά = Marc. 14:62 Apoc. 1:7] επι Q Sa Hippol.Ant.HS Eus.ecl. Chr. (= I828) PsChr. II799 Tht. IV524 = οʹ et Matth. 24:30 26:64 | ὡς Cyr.VIII648] ωσει 62′ 449 C′−87 26 46′ 106 407 590 Cyr. III1048 | ἐρχόμενος B-26-46′-239 Q V 538 LaS Hippol. Eus.dem. p. 440, 10 et ecl. CyrHieros. p. 909 Didym. p. 893 PsAth.IV697 Chr.I828 VII553 PsChr. II799 Cyr. I313 IX933 X309 Hil. Aug.ep. 198, 3] + ην A′’ L’-311 C′ 230′’ 407 534 590 Arab Eus.dem. p. 495, 23 et eccl. theol. et c. Marc. Chr. (= I294) Tht. Cyr. VI284 VIII 648. 1048 Aug. civ. 18, 34 = 𝔐; + αυτος ην 62′; ηρχετο Tht. IV524 = οʹ; venit verss.p Lucif.; veniebat Vig. c. Eut. 1, 14 PsVig. c. Var. 1, 47 | om. καὶ προσήχθη αὐτῷ Aeth Eus.dem. p. 440, 10 CyrHieros. p. 909 Tht.IV524 PsVig.; om. καί A’ | προσήχθη αὐτῷ B-46′ Q* LaS Hippol.Ant.p Didym. Lucif. Hil. PsVig. trin. 3] προσηνεχθη αυτω Qc Hippol. p. 210, 18 et Ant.p Eus.dem. p. 495, 24 et ecl. et eccles. theol. PsAth. IV697 = Sixt.: cf. Is. 53:7 σʹ; αυτω προσηνεχθη 230; ενωπιον (εμπροσθεν Eus.) αυτου προσηνεχθη (+ αυτω 62′ 311-lII Chr. Tht.p) O L′’ C′ 106 233′ 393 407 534 590 Co Arab Arm Eus. c. Marc. Chr. (= I 294. 828) Tht. Cyr. I 313 VI 284 VIII 648. 1048 IX 933 X 309 Aug. civ. 18, 34; ενωπιον αυτου (+ και 584) προσηγαγον αυτον A’ 26 = 𝔐; pr. ενωπιον αυτου 239

14 αὐτῷ ἐδόθη] tr. verss.p Hippol.Ant.p Eus.dem. p. 495 et ecl. Cyr. I 313 Lucif. Hil. = οʹ | ἀρχή … τιμή] tr. 311 CyrHieros. p. 909 Tht.p; αρχη … εξουσια Sa; εξουσια … τιμη Eus.ecl.: cf. οʹ | γλῶσσαι] pr. και B 538 106 verss.p Hippol.p Hil. PsVig. trin. 3 = 𝔐: cf. 3:4 | δουλεύσουσιν αὐτῷ Q-233 46′ 590 Co Aeth Arab Hippol. Eus.ecl. Didym. p. 893 PsAsAth. IV 697 Hil. PsVig. trin. 3] δουλευουσιν αυτω B-239 LaS CyrHieros. p. 909 Lucif.; αυτω δουλευουσιν A’ 538-88 c Eus.dem. Chr. I 294; αυτω δουλευσουσιν (-σωσιν 62′ 230) O L-311-449 C 26 106 230’ 393 (+ και υπακουσονται: ex 27) 407 534 Arm Eus. eccl. theol. et c. Marc. Chr. (= I 828) Cyr. VI 284 VII 656 VIII 648. 1048 IX 933 X 309 Tht. Aug. civ. 18, 34 = 𝔐: cf. 27 | ἡ ἐξουσία] αυτω ουσια 534; pr. και L’-311 LaS Aeth Arab Arm Tht. Ir.lat Lucif. Hil. = οʹ | ἐξουσία1°◠2° 88 | om. καὶ ἡ βας. αὐτοῦ οὐ διαφθ. 230: homoiot.; om. καί LaS | οὐ ult.] pr. η V Aeth = 𝔐

Joseph Ziegler, Olivier Munnich, and Detlef Fraenkel, eds., Susanna, Daniel, Bel et Draco, vol. XVI, 2, Vetus Testamentum Graecum. Auctoritate Academiae Scientiarum Gottingensis Editum (Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1999), 339–341.

In the Foreword to Daniel Pietersma explains: "It is not until 7-12 that one generally finds the common vocabulary in the two Greek versions to run around 50% and portions (e.g., 7.10, 25; 8.11-17, 21-23; 9.3-4, 11-12, 19-20, 27; 10.3-6, 19-20; 11.38) where there is extensive argreement for a verse or more. Some of the places where there is agreement can be demonstrated to be due to textual corruption, while others are incidental agreements that would be expected from two independent translators working from a similar source text. However, the portions of the Greek versions in these chapters where the verbal agreements between the texts are strong give the appearance that the TH text is a revision of the OG."

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

Vidqun

Peacefulpete, in the end much ado about nothing. NETS used the Gottingen Septuagint as basis. Those editors as well as Pietersma and team view it as a transcriptional error [καὶ ὡς παλαιὸς (Dan. 7:13 LXT) > καὶ ἕως τοῦ παλαιου (Dan. 7:13 LXXRH)], therefore the similarity between the Old Greek and Theodotion in their translation. I thought it was a long shot and it is a long shot, but interesting nevertheless.