Posts by Onetruesource

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

These are words of Jesus:
“This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because , looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them’.”
“However, happy are your eyes because they behold, and your ears because they hear. For I truly say to, Many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things you are beholding and did not see them, and to hear the things you are hearing and did not hear them.” Matt. 13:13-17.

WFTW

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

Zep,
I Completely misread you. I thought you were one of JW's. That changes everything. That shows you never really new the truth. You never had the faith. You should have because Jehovah used them as a dragnet to find his sheep. Sorry you never responded. But about your assertions of their teaching are not head and shoulder above the rest, I asked you to list any others that could qualify. I'm awaiting................... Jehovah wanted us to have faith. Have you read any of the scriptures that I listed?

WFTW

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

Fenchy,
thanks for your incite. No, we do not believe God's words are useless. Many people, because of not seeing God for them, doubt whether he even exist. The fact is prophecy is revealed by Jehovah, not man. And I quote,

"Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts. For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

So, if you are trying to discredit the scriptures, I believe you should take that up with Jehovah. But, be careful, the scriptures warn to be quick about listening and slow about speaking.
When one's spiritual sences are dulled, they have a hard time hearing. That is why I said, "Read it carefully, prayerfully and humbly." Don't be so quick to speak. Examine these scriptue for yourself. READ the scriptures listed!! Granted, not all will hear, but God’s sheep will. That is why Jesus said,
"Everyone on the side of truth listens to my voice." John 18:37
Don't be so quick to condemn. You might find yourself actually a fighter against God.
"but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, you may perhaps be found fighters actually against God." Act.5:39

WFTW

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

Hi Dubby,
I am a student of God’s word myself and in no way am the author of this information.
Like you, have been a JW for years. I began to study a publication called the ““ REPORT”- Jehovah’s Witnesses as Modern-Day Israel- Destined to “fall” and be “restored” according to Bible prophecy “. The name is based on a prophecy at Ezekiel 21:6,7. And I quote,

“And as for you, O son of man, sigh with shaking hips. Even with bitterness you should sigh before their eyes. And it must occur that, in case they say to you, ‘On account of what are you sighing?’ you must say, “At a report”. ‘For it will certainly come, and every heart must melt and all hands must drop down and every spirit must become dejected and all knees themselves will drip with water. Look! It will certainly come and be brought to occur,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

I have been told that C.O. Johnson has read the “Report” and wrote a letter saying it was very interesting.
I do believe that Jehovah is revealing new truths at this time for a reason. The long awaited promises from the bible are finally at hand. The WTBTS have the framework of truth, but they never could explain prophecies or understand them. That is why they have had to change them over and or again. That is because much of the prophecies are talking about them unfavorably. The scriptures says,
“ For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.”- 1 Cor, 13:9,10.
Also, Jesus said ,
“ I have many things yet to say to you, but you are not able to bear them at present. However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things coming.” – John 16:12-13.

Knowledge has been incomplete until now. Now we have the big picture and as the Ezekiel says, “every heart must melt and all hands must drop down and every spirit must become dejected and all knees themselves will drip with water.” What Jehovah is doing is almost unbelievable. But it is in his own words. If you and anyone else would like to look at the “Report”, it can be order through :

“TWMC Publishing
P.O.Box 11229
Montgomery AL. 36111”

The cost is $16.95(shipping included)

WFTW

Edited by - Onetruesource on 12 August 2000 21:28:16

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

Okay Zep,
Let's see what kind of proof you want. When you became one of Jehovah's Witnesses, what convinced you of the truth? I ask because I need to know how you think. Different things convinced all of us differently. For me,learning of the paridise from the bible was a start, but it was the prophetic books that impressed me and caused me to make a conviction. Even though much of it was not fully understood, just seeing that Jehovah was telling us what would happen impressed me. We all need different proofs. We all have to realize that JW's do have more of the truth than any other Christian religion. I guest, but I would think that 95% of Christians believe in the Trinity,burning hell, and no paradise. What do you think?
Zep you said, “VERY generalistic lines of evidence are simply not enough to prove to me that Dubs are the "Truth". First all, you have just belittle a few very important things to Jehovah. Centurys ago Jehovah said, “And they must place my name upon the sons of Israel, that I myself may bless them.” It was the placing of this particular name upon the Jewish nation that brought special blessings upon them. In fact, it was the placing of the name upon ancient Israel , in itself, that made them a special people for his possession. The placing of God’s personal name upon the Jewish nation proved to be the single most outstanding characteristic that identified them as “His people,” “His inheritance,”- it identified them as being “Israel.” Some today, do not fill the his name is that important. Not even the Jews saw the full appreciation for it. They thought they knew Jehovah, but did not. That is why Jesus in the midst of the Jews said, “ I have made your name known to them and will make it known”.(John 17:26) The Jews did not really know Jehovah. If they did, his name would have been put on high and they would have identified Jesus. You obviously do not see the significance of Jehovah’s name. For Jehovah’s name to be called upon anyone is a great honor and responsibility. But you have belittled that significance. You obviously don’t know Jehovah the way you should. He is fear inspiring and a Jealous God. For someone to carry that name carries a blessing or a curse, depending on how they display it. It was said of the Jews, “The Name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” (Romans 2:24) Carrying Jehovah’s name is no small matter.

None the less here are my three lines of evidence: coupled with what has already been said. This is only a small attempt to explain.

1) process of elimination
2) comparison with what made the nation of Israel God's people
3) Prophecy that describe his people in the last days.

1)
We can all see that the bible does talk about Israel in the last days right? We also know the natural nation has been abandoned by Jehovah, right?(Matt 23:37,38) Okay, who is, who could it be, and how can we identify them? If you look throughout the world in search of Israel according to the scriptures, who would you find. THEY must believe in Jehovah as the ONLY true God and carry that name upon themselves(Isaiah 43:6,7). As the natural Jews were called by that name. They were distinguished by their affiliation with that name. Right? THEY cannot use idols in worship, for Jehovah hates that. Right? Okay, that’s our starting point. Let’s narrow our choices down. Who could be on this list? Name them.

2)
The nation of Israel became officially God’s people when? 1512BCE. When they made a vow to take that name and live up to the laws of Jehovah. With the mediation of Moses, they all took that vow.(EX. 24:7) That is when they became his special possesion. Sad to say, they failed miserably to remain in Jehovah’s favor. But, by them taking that name upon themselves, they took on that responsibility. But it is that public vow that made the difference. When Jesus died he mediate the covenant that brought the christian congregation into the same relationship. When the apostles died the Christian congregation was dispersed. But prophecies were not filled yet. These things had to come about through spiritual Israel. But who would spiritual Israel be? First of all, a people that believed according to the truth.(the same belief the the original Christians had). They did not understand everything(1 Cor. 13:9). JW’s made a public aknowledgement to except and up hold Jehovah’s standards in 1931. And they have been identified by that name since. They teach the same "basic" framework of truth that Jesus disciples They do not understand everything, but they are God’s name people. They ALSO, have failed miserably to honor Jehovah’s name. That does not change the fact that they are God’s people any less than the natural Jews were.

3)
Isaiah 2:1-4 shows what will happen when persons begin to flock to the mountain of the house of Jehovah, but the verses following tells who is else being discussed(Isa.2:5-9). There are two houses being discussed. The mountain of the house of Jehovah(verse 2,3) and the house of Jacob(verse 5,6). The men in the house of Jacob leave their house because of corruption.(Isa.2:5-9) These ones flock to the mountain of the house of Jehovah to be instructed about his ways(They should have already known, but didn’t). But notice that they flock from the house of Jacob!!. What is the house of Jacob? This is ISRAELl !!!!! in the last days!!! Yes Israel in the last days is being abandoned. Why? They have become corrupt.(Isa.2:5-9) Yes. Again!!! The nation of Israel has become just like the natural nation , CORRUPT!!!!. JW’s leadership is becoming more and more like the soiled worldly religions, Corrupt!! Other prophecies show how bad it WILL get!! This is one scriptural prophecy about Israel in the last days. Read it carefully, prayerfully, and humbly. These are Jehovah’s own words.

WFTW

Edited by - Onetruesource on 11 August 2000 21:57:24

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

To All:

In the Hebrew scriptures it mentions that God values his name(Psalm 83:18)
It also tells us he wants a people to carry that name. Acts 15:14-17 tells us how Jehovah
For the first time took gentiles out of the nation to make a people for his name.

“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them apeople for his Name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David , which is fallen down;
and I will build again the ruins thereof , and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.”

So, the gentiles or the Christian congregation or “ spiritual Israelites” were a people for his name.(Tim 6:1). Those gentiles were the bases of a new nation, “Spiritaul Israel”.
The apostle Paul and others read the prophecies and saw Jesus fulfill some of them, but the majority of the prophecies and illustrations that Jesus told, they did not see fulfillment of.
It is these prophecies that would be fulfilled upon “Spiritual Israel”. Yes, it is these prophecies that tell us that God would use the nation of spiritual Israel to be the nation of Kings and Priest. That was the original purpose of the Jewish nation. They were the inheritors of the Kingdom of God. (Matt. 21:43) They would have served as the administration to Rule the world!!! But they lost this privilege and it now falls on the spiritual nation, “Spiritual Israel”.(Rev. 5:9,10)(Rev. 14:1-6)(Rev. 12:1-5 “ the male child”) What you say!? Yes the Spiritual Israelites would fulfill the responsibility that natural Jews were to fill. It is the Abrahamic covenant that must be fulfilled.

“And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themelves due to the fact that you listened to my voice.”

The Jews were to be a nation of Kings and priest, but they lost the privilege when they rejected Jesus.(Matt. 21:43) This privilege was now to be fulfilled upon the “Israel of God”, spiritual Jews(Ga. 6:15,16). What made a person a “spiritual Israelite”? Was it an anointing? No. Eventhough we learned that to be so, there are no scriptures to support that all first century Christians were anointed or that an anointing was a mark of a true Christian. It was not a reqirement to be a spiritual Israelite.That was a special arrangement for those that Jesus would take to heaven. What made a spiritual Israelite was their “faith” in Jesus and Jehovah to carry out his will. What Jehovah values the most was identified with Abraham. His faith was pleasing to Jehovah. But it is this faith that has also identifies JW’s as Israel. Coupled with the framework of the truth they posses, they are by far the ones that CAN be “Modern-day Israel”. They are the ones that have this faith.(Ga.2:16, Heb. 11:5-40,40 ) It is important that Israel is identified in order to see what Jehovah is doing in the last days. BUT, only those with the proper heart condition and willingness to except Jehovah’s words as is will benefit. It is imperative to humbly and truthfully look at these scriptures and consider the validity of them if you or any one else is to be used by Jehovah. For Jehovah is searching for such ones. Many won’t. That’s find, but Jehovah is revealing things now that has never been revealed. NEVER!! Among them is the identity of the true “BABYLON THE GREAT”. If anyone wants to continue to learn more let me know. Jehovah has taken out a people for his name. Do you recognize who they are??

WFTW

Edited by - Onetruesource on 10 August 2000 12:38:7

Edited by - Onetruesource on 10 August 2000 16:45:48

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

Let’s focus on the identity of “Israel”. It’s first important to identify who “Israel” is before one can understand any of the prophecies. If one does not understand that, we can’t begin to understand the rest of the scriptures. It’s that simple. Can you see the support for JW’s being “ Israel”? If not, let’s discuss that.

WFTW

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

So, that opens a whole can of worms. You see if JW's are Israel, then the majority of the prophecies are talking about THEM. And you'll be suprized as to how they apply to them. In fact the book of Revelation is written about what would happen to the nation in the last days. The book is symbolic and deals with earthly occurrences as they apply to the nation of "Israel", the spiritual nation. No, you won't be suprized, you'll will SHOCKED!!

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

Hi Zep,
It’s interesting that you brought up the natural nation. Even if they could qualify , they they couldn’t. I'll show you why in a minute. But, back to scriptures about Israel’s future. Isaiah 2: 1-4 is one prophecy that has not been fulfilled. ”.The nations have not stopped warring and they have not been reconciled to Jehovah through “Zion”. There are many prophecies about Israel that have to be fulfilled. In fact the Bible is written for and about “Israel”. These things and many others will take place in the near future. But , lets get back to the identity of “Israel” today. Israel in Jehovah’s eyes. The “Israel of God” as the bible mentions.

If I were to ask any JW who has the truth, practically all will say Jehovah’s Witnesses. I would ask why and they would enumerate numerous teachings and doctrines that are head and shoulder above the rest, including teaching of the paridise earth , one God, 144,00 reigning the earth, etc. In other words we have the “Truth”. Right ? Well, compared to other Christain religions, yes! Nobody comes close to worshiping Jehovah the way he wants. All of that is well and good, but I have found scriptural proof to show it. Hold your horses. Here it comes.

ISRAEL TO JEHOVAH:
Modern-Day Israel
There are certain criteria that have to be met in order to qualify as modern-day Israel. These criteria are based on truths that originate from the Mosaic Law presented by Moses. First of all, lets eliminate the natural Jews scripturally. Because of the ancient Israelites hard heartedness in accepting the word of God through the prophets and for killing his son, the Jews were cast off as God’s special possession. As Jesus words verify at Matt. 23:37-38: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and the stoners of those sent forth to her, how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gather chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you. “
Also consider Romans 2:28,29. So, the Jews are no longer in the running. The Christian congregation was formed to replace them. But, in order to qualify as modern-day Israel , this organization must reflect certain characteristics. These characteristics are actually truths that were found in the law code. These fundamental bible truths can be traced from the nation of Israel, down through the first century congregation, and down to our day and time. Upon close examination of historical facts, those truths have been maintained by small Christian groups threw out the centuries. These same characteristics can actually serve in our day to identify Modern-day Israel. See if you can identify an organization that has all of these characteristics:

1) Called by God’s personal name. (Exodus 6:3; Psalms 83:18)
2) Monotheistic- one God concept “non-Trinitarian” (Duet. 6:4)
3) Iconoclastic- does not use ungodly images in worship such as the cross. (Exodus 20:4-6)

So, now not even the natural Jews fit this bill. Jehovah’s Witness ARE a special people. “THEY ARE NOT” the righteous group that they claim to be though. They are in the same predicament as the Jewish nation in Jesus day. In an unapproved state. Why you might ask. Well, a lot of it has to do with some of things that are found on this board, but we will deal with this latter. SO, what do you think???

WFTW

Edited by - Onetruesource on 8 August 2000 14:37:40

Edited by - Onetruesource on 9 August 2000 12:3:12

Edited by - Onetruesource on 9 August 2000 12:5:59

78

Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource in

i would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.

the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.

we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.

Onetruesource

I would like to open this discussion on Israel, because I have come to learn many things about it. The Bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of Israel. We all know that the natural nation has been disowned by Jehovah, because unfaithfulness. The prophets spoke of things that would happen to Israel that never happened to the Jewish nation. That would imply that these things will be fulfilled upon another group of people that Jehovah has chosen. The 1st century christain congregation was formed to replace the Jewish nation. So, I ask. Who is this Israel that is spoken of in the bible prophecies? If it is not the natural Jews, who continued to carry the torch? Who is the true spiritual nation today? And what proof do you have scripturally? I would like to entertain thoughts on it before I share what I have learned.

WFTW

Edited by - Onetruesource on 7 August 2000 15:54:51