Posts by Londo111

54

What happened to Rolf Furuli?

by Vidqun in

rolf seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth.

he is not active on b-hebrew or other message boards anymore.

i wrote to him with a query, and has not heard a thing.

Londo111

BTW--I will apologize for the many typos in my posting above. I do not multitask well!

54

What happened to Rolf Furuli?

by Vidqun in

rolf seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth.

he is not active on b-hebrew or other message boards anymore.

i wrote to him with a query, and has not heard a thing.

Londo111

Ah, ex-JWs being ravens was the missing piece I didn't get! One would hope for a JW reformation movement, but based on what Jesus said about new wine in old wineskins, I wonder if it is possible.

Teachers, as James said, will bear Greater Responsibility. And from the time of Russel, who claimed to be God's mouthpiece, to those who followed, claiming to be God's channel of communication, they have sent themselves in the Seat of the Greater Moses. In essense, they believe themselves to be a collective Vicar of Christ. In claiming to speak for God and Christ, they the ultimate responsibility.

Of course, one of the first steps for being accountable for one's actions is asking for forgiveness, admitting fault, and not shifting it. In regards 1925 and 1975, the first thing they did was try to be quiet about it until the masses would forget. Then they shifted the blame on the flock. At least with 1975, the Governing Body did have Ray Franz write something a bit more of a slight admission--five years later. Even so the admission was not an apology.

Has the WTS ever apologized for wrong teaching (in print)? Perhaps they have on some matter and I'm not aware of it. If so, it would be a rarity. It would be refreshing to read these words, "We are sorry. We were wrong." Even Daniel apologized and asked forgiveness on behalf of his wayward nation--even though he personally had not been guilty. If Daniel can do it...why not the WTS?

54

What happened to Rolf Furuli?

by Vidqun in

rolf seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth.

he is not active on b-hebrew or other message boards anymore.

i wrote to him with a query, and has not heard a thing.

Londo111

Vidqun,

Under the Law, a raven would be unclean to _eat_ or _sacrifice_, being that it is not on the kosher menu, but for "general use", it was okay. For instance, seals were 'unclean' but thier skins were used for the Tabernacle covering. Of course--this is all my WTS upbringing, I might be wrong about all this. It could well be, if the Documentary hypothesis has credibility, that writers of the Elijah story came from Jawhist folklore, and the Law for the Priestly source. That might explain why, in Judges, Samson eats honey from the carcas of a dead lion.

But alas, even so, I didn't follow the illustration. If you could clarify I would most appreciate it! :)

85

What is the stupidest comment you ever heard at a meeting?

by 3rdgen in

a very reliable friend told me this: the bro was commenting on what was "unacceptable" conduct in the bedroom between married persons.

needless to say, he had everyone's attention.

he went on to say "we must avoid perversions such as oral and annual sex.

Londo111

I remember the conductor who was giving his personal commentary on the verse that says, "Let the stealer steal no more, but let him do hard work with his hands." Then he mimed the motion of a person using a computer mouse. Then he said, "THIS is not working with your hands."

Even the Society in their artcles implied that most people in the office are goofing off and a YPA article on Work quoted a young person as saying, "I'd rather be playing on my computer." And by thier terms, I am "unskilled". I think it stems from the "blue-collar" snobbery that the organization encouraged. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being blue collar, but no matter what your profession is, be it anything from brick laying to web development, exuding a spirit of superiority does not become one.

Sometimes when I'm stressed at work, I think about that. If I'm not working, if I'm "playing around" here, why am I so stressed?

54

What happened to Rolf Furuli?

by Vidqun in

rolf seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth.

he is not active on b-hebrew or other message boards anymore.

i wrote to him with a query, and has not heard a thing.

Londo111

I am guessing the Governing Body commissioned the Writing Committee to do these articles on 607 (as in, 'Write us an article as to why 607 IS correct'), but I wonder if any on Governing Body understand what is in them, any more than Joe Publisher. After reading CoC, it shows that most of them even in Ray Franz's day really didn't have the capacity for anything deep, much less scholarly. And there is probably no one in the current 7 who can do such 'heavy lifting'.

If as has been suggested the Writing Committee wrote this in conjunction with Rolf Furuli, or based on his material, I am wondering if there is any feedback coming back to the Writing Committee...or the Governing Body. And if they've said anything to him.

I would love to be a fly on the wall!

30

What is the WT's current stance on the age of the earth?

by popcorn_eater in

the reason i ask is i remember reading quite recently, in i think an "awake" mag about creation, that other churches confuse people by insisting on young earth creationism, which causes people to lose their faith.

the magazine was going off on groups and churches who insist on teaching science that conflicts with the bible (....).

i thought the wt was a proponent of this young earth creationism as well.

Londo111

I mean to say "older than 49000" years...not 4000 years! D'oh!

30

What is the WT's current stance on the age of the earth?

by popcorn_eater in

the reason i ask is i remember reading quite recently, in i think an "awake" mag about creation, that other churches confuse people by insisting on young earth creationism, which causes people to lose their faith.

the magazine was going off on groups and churches who insist on teaching science that conflicts with the bible (....).

i thought the wt was a proponent of this young earth creationism as well.

Londo111

Even when the Russel-based teaching of 49000 years...it was taught that the earth was much older than 4000 years, but that the six 7000-year days started about 48000 years ago (as of 1874--which later was readjusted became 1975). I think sometime during the 80's they basically decided to quietly shelve the idea by not mentioning it...that is a common strategy for some "old light".

I remember this was a point of contention between my father and I growing up. I was going through Earth Science and everything they said made perfect sense to me. But my father was adamant about the 49000 years which I found utterly ridiculous. When I explained about the layers, my mother spoke up said that the Flood "mixed all the layers up." Everything I said fell on deaf ears. Of course, my father was also against playing chess because of an old Awake article, but he at least let me play it on my computer.

If there is a God and if Genesis Chapter One is inspired, even partly, I see no conflict between it and Evolution. Of course, it's Chapter 2 onward that seem too much to swallow. The other night I sat down and watched a special on human evolution on Netflix...for so many years I was too scared to view things like that. Now I find it fascinating. There is never a need to hide from knowledge!

83

What was your most DISTURBING event as an elder ? (Per T.O.S. no full names please).

by Balaamsass in

i'll start the ball rolling.

dealing with kids in any type of judicial manner.

i would do everything i could to get parents to "deal with it-kindly" at home.

Londo111

I find it amazing that if an elder or a minsterial servant confesses to a 'serious sin', as long as it occured before their appointment, and as long as it was a 'few years ago', they can keep their position.

Yet a publisher who might confess to something they did a year ago easily get disfellowshipped and letting so much time go by without coming forward counts against them. And coming forward is stressed so much...it said that if you don't confess, as strongly implied by one CO, that like Achan, you can bring God withdrawing his spirit and favor from the congergation. Yet a elder or a minsterial servant is appointed by holy spirit?

Does not compute!

13

The Prodigal son...rejected.

by Londo111 in

i was a third generation witness, a ministerial servant twice in my life, a failed pioneer (i only made it six months).

when the article about higher education come out, my family finally decided it was okay for me to get a two year degree.

and that enabled me to provide for myself--before that is was impossible.

Londo111

Thank you all.

As regards the friends and family, the problem is not them, but that they are captives of the concept, followers of followers. Like the blind man's parents who trembled at the Pharisees, they are held in place by a very BIG stick...if they associate with me, as you know, they would end up in the same boat as me.

My best friend and I parted with many tears...it was a sad, not angry parting. We had many 'heretical' discussions about the Bible, evolution, and so forth, combing the spectrum of possibility. For instance, I saw no conflict between Genesis Chapter 1 and Evolution...I couldn't understand why the Society did. Of course, we kept such discussions hush-hush. He saw many problems...fanatics who went even to extremes, a Bethel congergation with 20 elders, where the average person was starving for loving shepherding. I believe he is a person of great Potential and I feel an imperitive to talk about the 607 articles with him, for he has the intellectual capacity to do the research himself independently.

I don't think my parents would ever listen. It would be over my mother's head. My father is loyalist and for his Myers-Briggs type ISFJ, tradition authority structures are very important. But I would still have to try. As a side not, I remember a pioneer family friend around 1990, ask in a frightened voice (because she wanted Paradise to come, like we all did), "What if the Society has a new understanding on the generation?" My father said in a confident tone, "Even if the end doesn't come, this is still the truth." So I might not get anywhere with him.

But why try? Friends and family don't want to shun me, they are conflicted about it inside I'm sure. But they want to do what they feel is the right thing and fear the consequences if they don't. True love acts on behalf of others, even on behalf of one's 'enemies'. I'm not really sure if there is a God or not, or if the historical Jesus was in any way like what we read in the Bible, but I do feel that the Gospels are fulls of truths to live by.

Of course, to those who were on the judical committee and those those men who came up with such an arrangement, I say, "May God see to it and ask back."

13

The Prodigal son...rejected.

by Londo111 in

i was a third generation witness, a ministerial servant twice in my life, a failed pioneer (i only made it six months).

when the article about higher education come out, my family finally decided it was okay for me to get a two year degree.

and that enabled me to provide for myself--before that is was impossible.

Londo111

I was a third generation witness, a ministerial servant twice in my life, a failed pioneer (I only made it six months). When the article about higher education come out, my family finally decided it was okay for me to get a two year degree. And that enabled me to provide for myself--before that is was impossible.

Toward the end, I was inactive for a year and, in retrospect, I could have easily faded had I been wise. But sometimes I thought I felt the presence of God in a congregation or two, while the vast majority felt dead to me. Of course, maybe a Divine force is at work through individuals of many religions, and that is what I sensed. Maybe this sense is nothing more than a collective super-consciousness formed by a gathering of like-minded believers. Or maybe I was an idiot.

I wanted to repent and make things right. I wanted spiritual help. I wanted to the experience of the prodigal son, and the various Gospel parables and stories where a repentant sinner returns and is accepted back. I felt confident that God and Christ were merciful and that certainly the elders were in the right hand of Christ. All I needed to do was come forward, confess, and they would give me spiritual help.

I quickly discovered that whatever I imagined was in that congregation did not stem the elders on the judicial committee. Still, I felt a confidence, though, however waved, that if I prayed that God would hear me and move the brothers on the appeal committee. After all, the merciful are shown mercy are they not? That's what we sung. They felt mercy was shown once…and apparently that was the limit, despite Jehovah being a God "full of mercy".

I begged them. I cried…and as a male, I do not cry often. I told them I couldn't get spiritually better without support of friends and family. I needed them to rally around me more than ever. I needed encouragement from the brothers and sisters and to work with them. After all, I thought to myself, it was not good for a perfect man to be alone, and prayer wasn't sufficient for his companionship needs, how much more so a sinner like me! I was willing to be clay in the hands of the elders, if they would only work with me on a regular basis. I had changed. I was determined not to repeat my mistakes which were committed during a period of dark depression after my wife left. The last thing I needed is to be abandoned again…this time, by EVERYONE I knew!

But that whole experience showed me what was in the heart of the organization. Thick headed, hard-hearted men that are not qualified to help anyone spiritually. Unyielding bureaucracy and blind, one-size-fits-all procedure. They did not prove to be a "hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm, like streams of water in a waterless country, like the shadow of a heavy crag in an exhausted land." They were the very ones throwing me out into the storm, abandoning me in wilderness and robbing me of any refreshment.

I attended one meeting after the final decision…before the announcement. But it was difficult. I have severe social anxiety. It made field service very difficult and because of this, I always thought I was going to be destroyed no matter what. Like many here, I have very low self esteem. One part came from having an alcoholic father, who was an elder for up until he stepped down a few years ago. It is strange how many times they look the other way on drunkenness.

But back to my social anxiety after the Decision. I was having a panic attack in the back row--and they hadn't even made the announcement yet. Afterward, I did manage to attend the Memorial because it was so ingrained in me that I could not miss that, but that was held at an assembly hall. And my ex-wife, who was disfellowshipped by then too, came with me. It helped having somebody with me.

After that, I never returned. With my social anxiety, and due to them blocking out the back rows, it was very hard to attend. It was hard to begin with, but after being proclaimed an 'unrepentant sinner', and having to be scrutinized week after week before a multitude, it was just too painful. Those without social anxiety could never understand. Also--to hear the elders who were on the judicial committee act all lubby dubby during their talks, when I've seen underneath their mask, it was too much.

To part from my best friend, it was a heartwretching experience, even more than my own family. To not have any sort of reprieve, from friends or family, it has been unbearable at times. I would not wish disfellowshipping on anyone, not even on Adolph Hitler. Truly if they had executed me, it would have been kinder.

But the experience finally enabled me to take a realistic look at things, past the myth of Spiritual Paradise that had been ingrained in me all my life. The myth was, either implied or said outright, that God's Kingdom was reigning, and that the Organization and its preaching work was an earthly manifestation of that Kingdom. Some even said that not much would change after Armageddon--the earthly arrangement would still be in place and Christ would rule through the organization. This was to be the nucleus of an earthly administration. The only difference was during the thousand years, there would be physical blessings. But for now the Kingdom was confined to only spiritual blessings and in creating a spiritual paradise that was a foregleam of the physical one.

When my father was overseeing something in regard the convention, a few members of the Governing Body came to town, and my parents had dinner with them. When my parents called upon their hotel room, one said something like, "Welcome to the King's Chambers." I remember being in awe upon hearing that. Wow--my parents ate with Sons of God, Christ's Brothers, future King-Priests! Really, in the back of many Witnesses minds, whether they admit it or not, the Governing Body is basically one step away from Christ himself. Like the Catholics, we had our own Vicar of Christ.

But the problem had been in the back of my mind for a while, that if Christ was now reigning through this earthly administration, why wasn't the King doing a better job? For instance, I was stunned by the layoffs of some who had been in Bethel for many years, and now they were struggling. I knew of some and I felt for them. Likewise, there were many organizational blunders that would never have been allowed if a superhuman Kingdom reign held firm sway over it--otherwise what was it doing in regards the Earth? It became plain to see that the Kingdom had no clothes. After reading Crisis of Conscience, it plainly showed that the Organization was another instance of man dominating man to his injury.

The articles on 607 have really been an eye-opener. For the first time, I am able to read them with unveiled eyes, and this site has provided much fact checking, especially with unbiased sources that show how erroneous they are. It is stunning. It is one thing to teach something you believe, which is what I thought they were doing. It is quite another to misrepresent the facts so utterly. These articles feel like a shell game. I really need more of this to give me intellectual capital.

I feel a need now to be reinstated, because I've a burning need to talk to loved ones, so that I can get a window of opportunity to share these things with them (at least with those who have the mental capacity). The more unbiased sources, the better. To say, this footnote references this, this historian is quoted to say that, but look at the reference in full detail…see what was actually said. Now, look at how it was presented. Now look at the astronomical fingerprint. Now look at what the Bible actually said about what would happen AFTER the 70 years are FULLFILLED--Babylon would be called into account, in 539! The 70 years would start when? In 609. What happened then? Babylon defeated Assyria and became the dominant power over the lands of that region. It makes so much sense! Like Cinderella 's foot sliding into the glass slipper, it agrees 100% with the historical evidence, while 607 is like trying to force the slippers onto a Sasquatch! If I had only known these things before attempting to 'do the right thing'!

Also, seeing what Ray Franz had said about the Flood, which is something I had suspected, that the flood covered, not "all the earth" but "all the land". The flood therefore was not global. And the chronology might be about 3500 BCE about the time the evidence of such a flood occurring. This makes much more sense!

I only hope that if I get that chance, it won't be too late for my best friend, who is the most conscientious person I know, who really tries his best to do what is right, and has seen the missteps of overseers of varying degrees. He has sacrificed much, he has endured much. He has a good heart. I have brotherly love toward him like no other person on the earth.

I did try to join a local meetup group of Ex-JWs, but I don't think I was ever accepted. Maybe the group is now defunt…I don't know. Despite my shyness, I do feel a need for fellowship at times, by people who understand where I am coming from. But for now, I will be happy to pass the time here.