Posts by Pathofthorns

44

"Apostolic succession"?

by Jokemyster in

jw
friends

since the wt organization claims "apostolic succession" who was it that passed the torch of gods spirit to c.t.russel when he founded the.

organization?

what denomination or faith?

While I'm sure definitions of "double-speak" will vary, I don't think you will find many thinking Witnesses who will deny that how we portray ourselves can often times differ from what actually is taking place in the real world.

Terms like "spiritual paradise" and "we are the happiest people in the world" are used, and yet any honest Witness realizes the abundance of "weeds" in the "spiritual paradise" and the amount of depression etc.

We all know too, while the Society may say one thing, and quite often very reasonably so, yet elders on the local level can hold to "old school" ways of doing things, completely disregarding aspects of the Society's present policies.

Many past statements regarding the conduct of churgoers, or how "people are leaving the churches" can be applied to ourselves. Since when have you read in a magazine that "Many of our fine youths are frequenting raves, engaging in illicit drug use, fornication, a great many are smoking, going to strip clubs and "massage" parlours." Of course they would never print such, even though I know personally that this is what is going on. Yet they would not hessitate to print such statements revealing the hypocrisy of Christendom.

We are quick to point out how "people are leaving the churches" yet when people are leaving us in large numbers, it is "a sifting work". Why can't other religions have a "sifting work".

We claim not to be perfect, thus justifying our mistakes throughout history. When the catholic church lays bare thier mistakes, and apologizes, it is stated such apologies are not genuine.

Why do we claim to fight for religious freedom, yet teach all other religion will be destroyed? Why do we denounce religious intolerance, yet impose heavy penalties on those who choose to leave or cannot accept things on grounds of conscience?

While we encourage others to be open minded and examine their religion, are we really free to examine all written materials on our religion? Does not a baptized Witness have to walk on eggshells when examining his own religion? What if he comes to a different conclusion than that which he is supposed to arrive at?

How can we say we are not inspired, admittedly fallible, yet demand 100% acceptance of all present teachings as though they were inspired?

One could go on and on and on with things that should be a certain way, but in reality are not as presented. Or their is one standard for God's people and another for false religion.

At least from my limited perspective, there is at least a measure of concern that there are some inconsistencies and possibly some double standards.

Pathofthorns

I

100

Preacher Jimmy Swaggart and JW Lawyers

by waiting in

in the supreme court of the united states, october tenth, 1988, case no.

88-1374, filed on june 22, 1988, clerk joseph f. spanol, jr.. on that date and file number, the attoreny james m. mccabe,and donald t. ridley, 25 colombia heights, brooklyn, ny 11251 (718)606-4993, attorneys for amicus curiae, watchtower bible and tract society of new york, inc. filed a "friends of the court" brief on the behalf of the famous preacher, jimmy swaggart and his ministries.. why would the watchtower society, direct channel for jehovah's holy spirt, which also godly hates babylon the great, which also christiandom is the largest part, go into the supreme court of the united states and file a legal brief to help jimmy swaggart's ministries in his trial which was case no.

88-1374: jimmy swaggart ministries, appelant vs. board of equalization of california, appeller?.

Pathofthorns

Sometimes we can be so correct, logical, that we forget that many times emotion and feeling don't always have their basis in fact and logic. It is that which makes us human, and it is for this reason God created woman to compliment man.

Such compassion and feeling Christ displayed balanced perfectly his logic and reason and wisdom. It is perhaps these qualities that attracted such a large following of women, who were drawn to a person who stood out in a culture where men lacked such feeling.

It appears that people today have the same needs. Not to be judged right or wrong, but to be listened to and be comforted.

In the end, it won't be so much what is in our minds as it will be what is in our hearts. Knowledge and wisdom are very important and will get us far in life. Faith and feeling will carry us the rest of the way.

Just my thoughts.

Pathofthorns

45

My Journey

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

i suppose we all think of ourselves as unique and we are in so many ways.

what i fail to realize, i guess, is that we are far more alike than unique.

every now and then i will reveal some little fear or quirk or dream that i have only to find out that someone else has experienced the same thing!

Pathofthorns

The path to freedom is indeed a path of thorns is it not? And they said we were looking for an easy way out :)

I wish you the best as well Frenchy. Thank you.

33

What Has Happened To Us?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

a few months ago during the elders' meeting with the c.o.

i could not help but express myself to him when the subject of meeting attendance came up.

now this is a nice guy as far as c.o.

Pathofthorns

I enjoyed your comments Frenchy. I do think many of us have lost faith and love as compelling reasons for doing the things we do. Faith and love appear to be replaced by fear and guilt. Most are in a rut, a routine of simply "treading water" until the "end" comes and saves us from what has become a dull routine.

Many are doing what they do because "they are supposed to". Few actually understand why. It could be why we have to have a good reason (excuse?) to miss a meetings or turn in a low hour report. Many of the so-called "witness illnesses" such as CFS, Fibromialgia, Burnout, Depression appear to be great reasons to limit activity and make it difficult for elders to say much to you. I don't mean this in any way to offend those that genuinely do suffer from such illnesses, and can see how those highly involved can easily develope them.

As for the quality of meeting parts, quality takes time to think about your talks and time is not something many have these days. If there were fewer meetings, but better prepared content, perhaps more would attend.

Good speakers never mattered so much to me as did speakers who spoke from the heart. A poor speaker who was genuine and speaking from the heart and cared and believed what he was saying was the best speaker in my book.

I don't believe meeting attendance will improve until the number of meetings is reduced. Length of conventions have been shortened, Pioneer hours have been reduced. Time and necessity dictate that at some point there will be less meetings per week. Will this help meeting attendance? Perhaps in the short term. Long term probably not. The future of the organization is our young people, and from what I see they have no use for meetings, and many really have only a basic concept of what they even believe.

(Sorry to ramble on) Lastly I think the poor meeting attendance is in part due to people having to work longer hours these days. Many Witnesses because they didn't get an education earn less than their "worldly" counterparts. Financially Witnesses are set back because thier parents spending all of their money on Kingdom pursuits. While such is not necessarily regretted, a heavy burden has fallen upon this generation. Not only do they have to care for their own families, they also have to financially care for their parents who did not exercise finacial balance. In addition this generation wants to leave something for thier children so they don't face the difficulties they do. In short this generation has way too many things on their plates. It appears many are evaluating just how much confidence they can place in "present truth" when they look at how things have fared for their parents.

Pathofthorns

100

Preacher Jimmy Swaggart and JW Lawyers

by waiting in

in the supreme court of the united states, october tenth, 1988, case no.

88-1374, filed on june 22, 1988, clerk joseph f. spanol, jr.. on that date and file number, the attoreny james m. mccabe,and donald t. ridley, 25 colombia heights, brooklyn, ny 11251 (718)606-4993, attorneys for amicus curiae, watchtower bible and tract society of new york, inc. filed a "friends of the court" brief on the behalf of the famous preacher, jimmy swaggart and his ministries.. why would the watchtower society, direct channel for jehovah's holy spirt, which also godly hates babylon the great, which also christiandom is the largest part, go into the supreme court of the united states and file a legal brief to help jimmy swaggart's ministries in his trial which was case no.

88-1374: jimmy swaggart ministries, appelant vs. board of equalization of california, appeller?.

Pathofthorns

Thanks for the reply Friend.

Just wondering who actually owns the Kindom Hall anyway?

For Calliban:

As far as I recollect, Jesus was not obligated to pay the temple tax, and yet he did, so that people were not stumbled. I'm sure the Society is paying the tax, but are merely trying to recieve fair treatment in this regard, and have the same benefits of the other religions.

The open letter posted in the New York Times did contain comments that were of concern to me though.

They will do this not only to avoid unjust
and oppressive tax but also to help assure that all French people enjoy freedom of religion.

Commments like the above are made which appear to sound like political lobying for other religions. Perhaps that is only my perception though. What is left out in this mention of concern for "freedom of religion" is that Witnesses by their official belief take exactly the opposite stand. We believe that all religion will be destroyed except ours. Within the religion, how much freedom is there to follow one's conscience? It appears that we want all the benefits of organized religion, while at the same time reserve the right to condemn it. Its as if its ok to be part of Babylon the Great when there are legal and tax benefits involved.

I believe that resolving what appears to be an unfair tax in the courts is not unreasonable. On the other hand, using the media and our own publications to slam French authorities seems hardly a good way to seek a favourable judgement.

That we have been unable to convince the French government that we are not a cult is an interesting point to say the least. With the rate of change within the organization these days perhaps it won't be long before we can shed that four letter word from people's minds.

Pathofthorns

45

My Journey

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

i suppose we all think of ourselves as unique and we are in so many ways.

what i fail to realize, i guess, is that we are far more alike than unique.

every now and then i will reveal some little fear or quirk or dream that i have only to find out that someone else has experienced the same thing!

Pathofthorns

I have no comment on "present light", and neither am I "hoping" that we have finally gotten it right. At some point one realizes such hopes continually lead to disappointment.

I re-read my post and see that it could likely be taken 2 ways. How you percieved it, is not how I meant it.

What I meant by learning from the past, as opposed to harping on it, is simply that I have no regrets for my life as a Witness. Disappointments, yes, but not regrets. The religion was the "vehical" that got me to a certain point in life. Lessons were learned that may not have been appreciated otherwise. I thank them for the ride.

Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.

Pathofthorns

100

Preacher Jimmy Swaggart and JW Lawyers

by waiting in

in the supreme court of the united states, october tenth, 1988, case no.

88-1374, filed on june 22, 1988, clerk joseph f. spanol, jr.. on that date and file number, the attoreny james m. mccabe,and donald t. ridley, 25 colombia heights, brooklyn, ny 11251 (718)606-4993, attorneys for amicus curiae, watchtower bible and tract society of new york, inc. filed a "friends of the court" brief on the behalf of the famous preacher, jimmy swaggart and his ministries.. why would the watchtower society, direct channel for jehovah's holy spirt, which also godly hates babylon the great, which also christiandom is the largest part, go into the supreme court of the united states and file a legal brief to help jimmy swaggart's ministries in his trial which was case no.

88-1374: jimmy swaggart ministries, appelant vs. board of equalization of california, appeller?.

Pathofthorns

I can't see any problem with the Society making use of the courts this way.

I guess the perception of the Society scrambling to legally avoid paying taxes (which we all likely do, and only makes good sense) would have been easier for many to follow if it didn't seem to come out of necessity. What I mean is, why would not the "recieved free-give free" principle have been instituted long ago?

Why only this year has the Society stopped charging interest to congregations borrowing money they themselves donated to the Society?

Why is the "donation arrangement" not universal in that some countries still charge for literature?

I remember working with ones years ago who would not give a new magazine to someone if they didn't have the money. They would get a back issue or a tract. I rather like the new arrangements. They make much better sense, and appear to be more inline with Christian principles. I only wonder why things weren't done sooner. So many changes these days appear to be a legal or financial reaction, rather than having come of our own volition.

(P.s. Go easy on me Friend. I realize my post is full of speculations, generalizations, unsubstanciated comments, etc. I'm just asking, and saying how things appear :)

Pathofthorns

45

My Journey

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

i suppose we all think of ourselves as unique and we are in so many ways.

what i fail to realize, i guess, is that we are far more alike than unique.

every now and then i will reveal some little fear or quirk or dream that i have only to find out that someone else has experienced the same thing!

Pathofthorns

Thank you for your kind welcomes.

While I wish "the truth" was true, Frenchy, the TRUTH as Jehovah intended is always true. There are so many benefits to having been wrong. Likely salvation will be for so many more than we may once have thought. The dangers of following men are apparent. Freedom is to be appreciated, guared, used wisely.

Since the Bible is not written in black and white terms, we will all make mistakes. But perhaps the greatest mistake anyone can make is to take away the freedom of another by leading him into captivity to his own interpretations. Possibly the real beauty of Christianity is that we all could arrive at different conclusions, but still respect each other in that we are all united in Christ.

I do know one thing though. There is little value in harping on the past and being bitter. I can learn from the past, and now must concentrate on the future.

Pathofthorns

47

WHY does God fail to...

by Martini in

jw
friends

...attain unanimous support from his creation of free moral agents?

from the majority at least.. apparently according to the wt interpretation of god's own book...a prominent spirit creature who made himself satan became unsatisfied and left god.later untold numbers would join the devil.. now the only solution for the future of these 'rebels' would be for god to destroy them.. then the very first human creatures apparently also felt unsatisfied and withdrew from god.they got destroyed.. later god had to confuse the language of all humans because they were unanimously opposed to god.

those people too are history.. then god had an ark built because all flesh had left god's way except for a handful of people.. evidently god was not expecting any great number to actually join noah, otherwise god would have had noah build several arks!

Pathofthorns

Waiting,

Your experience sounds quite similar to where I am right now. I'm trying to step back and get as much of an unbiased perspective on things, and certain ones are making it quite difficult to do so. Apparently I cannot have God's spirit if I'm not at my meetings.

One has to almost be a lawyer to use the "grounds of conscience" argument while not showing disagreement with the organization. I just need a break or I think I'll lose my sanity.

I can't believe even after explaining all my doubts/concerns they keep assigning me talks and other assignments in the hall. I've got to buy a house and move away I think.

Pathofthorns

45

My Journey

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

i suppose we all think of ourselves as unique and we are in so many ways.

what i fail to realize, i guess, is that we are far more alike than unique.

every now and then i will reveal some little fear or quirk or dream that i have only to find out that someone else has experienced the same thing!

Pathofthorns

I appreciated your comments Frenchy. I too share similar feelings regarding "the truth" and the people in it. I know the people in the truth are not bad. They believe its the truth, but do not know why. They are loyal, but it is misdirected. Most are simply ignorant of all the facts. I do know many have doubts and concerns, but it is much like the story of the Emperor's New Clothes, everyone thinks they are the only one and they are afraid to speak up.

The difficulty with the having to accept "all or nothing" regarding doctrine and teachings makes it difficult for people who have principles, and have a conscience, and who love God, people and truth. I too face the same dilemmas. Most of all I wish "the truth" was true.

Most people want someone to tell them exactly what to do "to get saved". They need someone to tell them everything is going to be alright. What they fail to realize is that the Bible for some reason is not written that way. Quite likely we will search our whole life, and never come to definite conclusions on all things. This is very unsettling for most of us, and certainly for us who have been used to just accepting all answers from "the channel".

Prayer is often difficult when one knows the facts. I have heard this often. It makes people think they have made a mistake in their reasoning. To me, it appears that when one sees that the "emperor" has no "clothes", the "rug" has been pulled out from under us. Our foundation has been shaken. We question who really is God? The "organizational cliches" we used to rhyme off are realized. It seems we need to somehow learn to pray all over again.

I really can't offer you any answers Frenchy, because if I could I could help myself too. I'm 26 years old trying to reconcile all these things. Even though its difficult, I wouldn't trade my progress down the path to freedom for the shackles of ignorance.

Pathofthorns