when one looks at the garden of eden so many wonderful parallels can be drawn from it... .
in an organization such as wtbts, they have anointed themselves as god and we are all adam and eve.. we provide you with a hope of a paradise here on earth, being associated with us will take care of your needs, come join us.
give to us your devotion and you will prosper, become enriched , live like no other people on earth.
Great story! And don't forget the oft-quoted "to the making of books there is no end, and devotion to them is wearisome . . . blah, blah, blah.
Except of course THEIR books . . . and magazines. . . and brochures. . . videos. . . ad nauseum.
Amen!
Patio
as most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.
therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.
when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.
Dear "Mommy,"
Sorry! But I just have trouble calling anyone mommy at my age!
Variety is the spice of life and everyone contributes to our small village here. I love the exchange of ideas and experiences. This board has been such a help to me in my exit.
There are some persons' posts I always read and yours is one of them. So, don't belittle your large contribution to the group personality.
Another thing I tend to disagree with in this thread is the thought that it's hard to know someone via the net. In some respects, reading what one has written is a very honest way to know a person. Look at all the letters in the past that we know people from, not to mention their books.
A written message is thought about and it is what the author really wants to express. Not some glib "Hi-how-are-you-let's-do-lunch' kind of thing. So there may be an advantage to writing.
"I'd rather go thru life with questions I can't answer than with questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question)."
TTFN
Patio
two observations since leaving the jws:.
1. are the elders really 'teachers'?
in the public talk they have to follow the outline provided by the wt.
Two observations since leaving the jws:
1. Are the elders really 'teachers'? In the public talk they have to follow the outline provided by the WT. Of course, in the book study, they follow the book. At all the meetings the teaching comes from, and only from, the WTS.
These elders are not trained counselors, psychologists, teachers, or even their own learning about theology. They are merely 'readers,' if you will, and make sure the group stays on target.
Plus, when do they have time to read and study anything to do with training as counselors, etc.? They're usually family men with full-time jobs.
They really are volunteer amateurs attempting to do what professionals do.
2. When you are a jw, you believe the 'world is lying in the power of Satan.' When you meet nice, moral people at work or school, you wonder why God is going to destroy such ones. You have a choice: to 'save' them (read make them a jw), or find out why they are really wicked 'in God's eyes.'
This all leads to a very subtle form of judgmental attitude.
Since leaving, I feel so much more respect for people at-large. I don't have to view them as 'wicked' and under the influence of 'Satan' and worthy of everlasting destruction and seeing 'their eyeballs rot out,' etc.
Now, my motto is 'live and let live.' It's so much more pleasant.
"I'd rather have questions I can't answer than questions I can't answer (or answers I can't question)."
I can enjoy people for what they are even if they don't believe the way I do.
Patio
i cant say i sought the jws out.
i had little choice , as my parents did the seeking, i hold them harmless, they did not investigate it beyond the wtbts pubs.. i did however at a point go it on my own, did the water dipping ore 1985 , so i feel, no allegiance to a group i vowed nothing to.. there was a point maybe 2 or 3 months when i felt i had a realtionship with god during my stint with the jws.
unfortuanately for me i lumped , god and them together and dismissed both together for a long time.. my question though to all here is this.
Wellll, once upon a time (28 years ago) there was a lonely homemaker with 3 little children. Her husband worked out of town. It was cold winter. This young mom felt insecure because she was not college-educated and her husband was. She was Catholic and loved to read.
So, enter jws with books and magazines galore. Lots of love and good friends! The lonely housewife was enjoying all the reading and friends.
The rest of the story: the hubby left, the mom raised, now 4, kids alone and moved to new state where the congregations were not nearly so friendly.
The mom quit reading most everything but WTBS because everything else 'weakened her faith.' Oh, she read health books, newspapers, etc., but no science, evolution, history, etc.
She had doubts for years but subdued them because she was a good jdub.
Then one morning she woke up! Wrote a long list of "What being a jw has meant to me" included isolation, no social life, no marriage, no free time hardly, and no joy. But she destroyed the list and felt very guilty.
Then, she watched the Disney movie "Dinasour" and said "Wait a darn minute!" How could those vicious creatures (read carnivorous) fit in with Adam's sin, since they lived before Adam?
Said grandmother (by this time!) decided, once and for all, to investigate her OWN ideas in books NOT written by WTBS. Grannie called her inactive sister, who sent her a box of books and printouts. Grannie read and read and read. Still reading!
What does she believe in now? Ha! She believes it's not wise to believe in anything until one has all the facts. But her new education, sans blinders, is leading her to believe she'll never visit a kingdom hall again!
"I'd rather have questions I can't answer than questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question).
Patio
was it ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other.
or something like that.. man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay.
what sins have animals committed?
The Bible can't be understood correctly without knowing the beliefs of the Sumerian people. They had writings and religion BEFORE the Bible was penned.
The Sumerians had beliefs about a serpent, a woman, a rib, a flood, and even a king who was put into a basket in the river and rescued (King Sargon).
It is reasonable to deduce that the writer of Genesis borrowed these myths from the Sumerians.
Abraham was from UR Genesis tells us. Ur was one of the chief city-states of Sumer. Ergo, Abraham was Sumerian. This gives further weight to the premise that the Hebrews appropriated the beliefs of the Sumerians.
It therefore seems pointless to dissect the Genesis account and would be more to the point to study the Sumerians. But they aren't 'inspired'; so that leaves the Genesis account as non-factual--mythology also.
Another flaw with Genesis is at Gen 1:30--all the animals ate green vegetation. The writer did not know about the existence of dinasours eons before humans. Many of them were 'meat-eaters' or carnivorous, not eaters of green vegetation. SO, the so-called sin of Adam changed nothing about the violence in nature--that had existed from the time of dinasours.
"I'd rather live with questions I can't answer than with questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question)."
Patio
hello again there "focus".. it is certainly a sight for my eyes to see all posts from you, yet .
this particular one wrenched my gut as soon as i read this>.
focus wrote: on each landing, opposite the lift-shaft, the poster with the enormous face gazed from the wall.
SF,
I'm in the same area. Please e-mail me and let me know where you are, eh?
Patio
i encourage people not to either verbally or physically harass jws when they come knocking on the door.. saying this, i recognize that it is ever so tempting to try the following:.
1) answering the door wearing a t-shirt with a logo such as "satan rules", "member of the evil slave class", and "1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, what's next?".
2) answering the door wearing only underwear (or less).. 3) dropping a name of some governing body member and suggesting that you got to know him when he and you were in jail together, and then ask if they know if he's stopped some particular filthy habit.. 4) answering the door while brandishing a pitchfork.. 5) say that you're so glad they came and that it's good for people to have an open mind about their religion and to be willing to change; once you get them excited with this, show them a copy of the wtbts failed prophecy list (backed by quotes from their own literature) and ask if they are open minded as well.. 6) as most jws have never looked at a copy of _studies in the scriptures_, tell them that you've gotten many of your religious beliefs by pyramidology; then show them a copy of _sits_ and point to the wtbts copyright notice.. i have #5 and #6 ready for the next visit.
Hi Hester!
Love your name Hester Pryne--from Scarlet Letter?
I would agree with Skimmer in the item referring to 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975; but 1879 and 1995 (for chaning the generation) to the list.
I don't feel sorry for jws at my door, but not resentful either. But it would be appropriate IMO to reason with them about these dates a bit, as many probably aren't on that wave length.
Oh! The reason kingdom halls don't have windows, or so I was told, is that the insurance on them is cheaper. Less damage can be done to the buildings.
"Id rather live with questions I can't answer than with questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question).
Patio
it's quite amusing to read the self-exaltation contained within.
the watchtower and contrast it with the organization's sterile.
reality.
Yes, the religion will die when their people wake up as many of us have.
So much becomes apparent once one takes off the blinders and really sees.
The WTBS has lost its luster because their main hook was that these are the 'last days.' When the generation died, and their word didn't come true, I believe that was the death knell.
That was the feature that gave excitement to the jws. Do they even write that it's still the 'last days,' now some 87 years later?
Patio
was it ezicle who said the eventuality of man is the same as for the animal, as one dies so does the other.
or something like that.. man has to die because he sinned, that's the price one has to pay.
what sins have animals committed?
Hi Older Tom!
I believe it was in Ecclesiates 9 that that was written about man and animal having the same end. I used to think the same thing--everything dies. It seems 'natural' for humans too.
As for questions: "I'd rather go through life with questions I can't answer than with questions I can't ask (or answers I can't question)."
Patio
in the bizarre world that exist within the watchtower society headquarters in brooklyn you can find all kinds of strange statements.
particularly funny is the use of the expressions indisputable/physical facts.
according to the watchtower from 1922, indisputable facts showed that jesus second presence began in 1874!
Jst2laws,
I hope you keep posting--even tho you say you're new at this--I really enjoy reading your point of view.
Patio
