well known norway elder and watchtower doctrine apologist, (rolf furuli) was disfellowshipped a few days ago for the crime of expressing opinions contrary to some watchtower dictates.. like wt leadership in the past, they have no problem eating their own..
"Another one freed from the clutches of the WatchTower.". If you read the Thread he is far from "freed", he still believes in over 90% of JW teaching.
As the saying goes, in his case, sadly," You can take the boy out of the Religion, but not the Religion out of the boy".
other threads recently touched upon the temple description in the ot.
i've made comments to the effect that the temple designs mirrors that of other cults of the region.
additionally i wondered if the temple ever existed in the 8th-9th century at all, given the lack of archaeological evidence for it and the mythical characters and obvious embellishments in the story of it's construction.
Solomon's Temple as described in the Bible is thought to be mainly Myth, so maybe Hiram is too, great Pun by the way Slim !
Apparently the structure must have been smaller than the Bible describes, as was indeed the "Empire" of David and Solomon, not nearly as big as the Bible says !
It is interesting that the design of the Temple describes the design of a number of known "pagan " Temples of the time, so if Hiram was real, maybe he designed and built along those lines, again, the design not really coming from "god" as the Bible implies.
in the scope of this site, it’s not possible to go too deeply into historical research in a single post but we can give the flavour of things formerly hidden from us when we were jws.. like most things, christianity evolved.. it has unseen roots but many visible branches, 40,000 is the often quoted number!
there never was a moment when it arrived fully formed in the middle of the first century.
its roots in folk mysteries were deliberately concealed by fourth and fifth century christian leaders.
Thank you Half banana for your Post, most informative ! I have "The Shepherd of Hermas " in my Library, and read it many years ago, but never noticed the absence of Jesus and Christ in the Text ! of course, back in those days I was an active J.W, and we were mind controlled to "read things in to" whatever texts we were reading.
I fully endorse your comment on the very early period of Christianity : "There never was a moment when it arrived fully formed in the middle of the first century". And I would add , it was far from "fully formed" at the end of that Century, when the Apostles and nearly all eye-witnesses of Jesus were surely dead ! And as you say, controversy raged on, and continues ! Of course we see various theological ideas emerging in the New Testament Books, these being written against a background of the existence of a number of groups claiming to be followers of Jesus, all with varying theologies.
Our very own Poster, Doug Mason touches on this in a number of his Papers, and maybe more so in his latest Paper, still a work in progress.
Gnosticism of course is fairly well known, and probably affected the writer of the Gospel of John. The Nestorians I think were very early, and other nebulous groups who fizzled out, and we have scant knowledge of, unless they were condemned as Heretics by the Church that came to call itself Orthodox, itself several removes from proto Christian Theology.
All of this is a very different picture from the one drawn by the J.W Org ! The evolution of Christianity is quite as messy as the Evolution of Life on earth !
other threads recently touched upon the temple description in the ot.
i've made comments to the effect that the temple designs mirrors that of other cults of the region.
additionally i wondered if the temple ever existed in the 8th-9th century at all, given the lack of archaeological evidence for it and the mythical characters and obvious embellishments in the story of it's construction.
I agree peacfulpete,I think it is impossible to unravel, to separate Legend and Myth from History, and to extract who may have ben a real figure in History.
Certainly the Hebrew Bible is a mish-mash of stories and myths that the Scribes of the 6th century B.C and later made in to a " History" for their own purposes. The main purpose being to have a "History" for Israel that gave them National Pride.
They followed in a tradition, started by those who wrote the Epic of Gilgamesh, ( which they plagiarise of course) and other similar works. But I have been surprised that the Myths and Legends of old more often than not have a foundation in real history, from that early stuff, through the Greek Myths and likely up to the persons of King Arthur, and later Robin hood, all those stories were more than likely based upon people who actually lived, embellished for entertainment value obviously, but some basis in fact.
" That is one thing that is properly consigned to history.". The Bag is, the attitude is still around I bet. I remember years ago when one of our Elders was on the RBC, and a few of the guys on there had just started using Laptops, they were needed for their "Worldly" jobs, so they brought them along and knew how to use them.
Our guy rushed out, bought himself a top of the range Laptop and took it along to the next RBC Meeting, I am 95% sure he didn't know how to use it back then !
Big Bag Syndrome.
interestingly, just this week—on monday 29 june, 2020—the british house of commons amended their pending domestic abuse bill to include parental alienation as a form of child abuse, even calling it “psychological manipulation.”.
the bill is very much in the process and will no doubt go through more revisions before it reaches its final form.
you can read more about that process in relation to this bill here: .
This , if it comes in to Law, will make it legally wrong for J.W's to treat badly there minor children who are disfellowshipped.
Sadly, we already know of cases where minor children in this position have been allowed to live at home, and were "alienated" within the home, and then told to leave once they became adult.
J.W's find ways to ignore the law, and to ignore the "spirit" of such laws, thinking their way is above the Law of the Land.
But I hope this may help some poor kids who become DF'd, if their parents are the more reasonable, and more loving type of J.W.
I was never an Elder, out of choice, but never had a big bag, sometimes I just had a rolled up WT mag. in my jacket, because I had scribbled notes in it on research I had done.
Wanna be Elders had those big bags, so obvious and pathetic !
i have lost a couple of fb friends.
i have had conversations with many of my friends regarding politics and since we generally view politics in the same way, there is little dissension.
however i do have some friends that don’t see things properly, my way, and i still like them.🤗lol....i know of some families that have stopped talking to each other because of something as stupid as political differences..
I don't think I have, maybe the odd person on F.B or similar, but they are not real friends. I generally try to argue in such a way that I still show respect for the person, though I may quite strongly show where their opinion is wrong, and give them the facts.
I never insult the person, I think that helps.
If people have gone because of my Political, or in fact any other ,views, then good riddance ! they have done so, in a cowardly way, skulking off, not giving any good reason for their opinions, which shows they have no good argument.
A bit like when J.W's run off rather than defend their views and their faith, cowards, who know deep down they have no valid argument to offer.
spotted this article this morning.
i will try to post a link.. jtg.. australia.. institutions refusing to join the national redress scheme are "doubling down" on the crime of child sexual abuse, prime minister scott morrison says.. mr morrison and social services minister anne ruston have warned institutions they may lose funding and tax concessions if they fail to sign up by tuesday's deadline and will be named and shamed.. "all institutions are doing in not joining is doubling down on the crime and doubling down on the hurt," they said in a letter to 25 institutions.. "we consider it to be reprehensible that you have failed to sign up to the scheme.".
the jehovah's witnesses is among the organisations that has refused to sign up, arguing it does not have the institutional settings of other faith-based institutions that the redress scheme is designed to cover.. senator ruston is set to name the non-participating institutions on wednesday, when she will announce what action the federal government will take against them.. "we urge you to join the scheme not because of concerns about being identified, but because it is the right thing to do," the minister and mr morrison said.. "it is the right thing to do by survivors and their families and it is what every, decent, honest, australian demands.".
Cofty, you read too fast ! I actually said " paying up to $150 Million AUD." Which of course is an overestimate, as probably not all would receive the maximum.
I agree 100% with fade above, that this situation is continuing abuse, simply because the $$$$, are more important to the org than people, and making reparation for the damage they have done to their lives. just Evil.
spotted this article this morning.
i will try to post a link.. jtg.. australia.. institutions refusing to join the national redress scheme are "doubling down" on the crime of child sexual abuse, prime minister scott morrison says.. mr morrison and social services minister anne ruston have warned institutions they may lose funding and tax concessions if they fail to sign up by tuesday's deadline and will be named and shamed.. "all institutions are doing in not joining is doubling down on the crime and doubling down on the hurt," they said in a letter to 25 institutions.. "we consider it to be reprehensible that you have failed to sign up to the scheme.".
the jehovah's witnesses is among the organisations that has refused to sign up, arguing it does not have the institutional settings of other faith-based institutions that the redress scheme is designed to cover.. senator ruston is set to name the non-participating institutions on wednesday, when she will announce what action the federal government will take against them.. "we urge you to join the scheme not because of concerns about being identified, but because it is the right thing to do," the minister and mr morrison said.. "it is the right thing to do by survivors and their families and it is what every, decent, honest, australian demands.".
The JW Org has done its usual callous calculation, no thought, let alone love, for the victims. It is calculating that to lose Tax Exemption would cost them far less over the years than paying up to $150 Million AUD. in compensation, which is rightfully owed to those poor victims, whose lives have been altered forever, and often youth been totally lost.
Added to their disgusting non-reporting, their total lack of a proper Protection Programme for the vulnerable, this move should make them the worst Pariah among the religions in Australia. May they wither away and die there as a "religion".
It may come down to a Class Action by the Victims ? Then let us hope the Courts award even more Compensation, the Courts must have some discretion in this.
