Perry

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Posts by Perry

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  18

  Misleading explanation for the fulfillment of the Prophecy against Tyre

  by opusdei1972 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as we know, nebuchadnezzar could not conquer the island of tyre, so he could not fulfill what was predicted in ezekiel chapter 26. many years later, ezekiel admitted that the prediction failed in chapter 29:.

  17 and it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the lord came to me, saying, 18 son of man, nebuchadnezzar king of babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.

  19 therefore thus says the lord god: surely i will give the land of egypt to nebuchadnezzar king of babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army.

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  Perry

  Were you aware that there were essentially two Tyres?

  Tyre was originally an island “surrounded by the sea” (Ez 27:32). “Today, ” Aubet says, “Tyre is a peninsula joined to the mainland.” The peninsula was created by the silting up of a mole or causeway built by Alexander the Great in 332 BC (Aubet 1993: 27). Aubet notes that there was a city on the mainland known as “ancient Tyre” to Roman historians, also referred to as “Palaeo-Tyre.” The Egyptian and Assyrian texts call it Uzu/Ushu. The scribe in Papyrus Anastasi I (1290–1186 BC), for example, says,

  What is Uzu like? They say another town is in the sea named Tyre-the-Port. Water is taken to it by boats (Wilson 1969: 477). Aubet adds:

  It was considered to be a second Tyre on the mainland and lasted as a satellite city until it was conquered by Nebuchadnezzar (1993: 30, emphasis added).

  

  Nineteenth-century map of Tyre, showing the present-day causeway between the mainland and the island city. When Alexander the Great besieged the island in 332 BC he built a narrow mole from the rubble of the destroyed mainland city of Tyre. It spanned the 1/3 mi (600 m) between the mainland and the island. In time, the causeway became enlarged by sand deposits washed in by the waves. Today the causeway and the island form a peninsula stretching out into the Mediterranean. Evidence of Tyre’s ancient ports can still be seen on the north and south sides of the former island.

  After his defeat of Jerusalem in 587 BC, Nebuchadnezzar turned his attention to Tyre. Although he defeated mainland Tyre, a 13-year siege of the island city proved fruitless. The historian Diodorus attested that Alexander used the stones from the Old Tyre destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar to build his mole (Diodorus, 17.40; Wells 1936). The causeway was a half-mile (0.8 km) long and 200 ft (60 m) wide, and was built so Alexander could move his siege equipment over to the island. The rubble from Old Tyre was so thoroughly cleaned out by Alexander’s engineers that no trace of the ancient city can be found today. Thus, according to H. J. Katzenstein, the precise location of mainland Tyre is a point of controversy. According to this specialist on the history of Tyre, it was “totally dismantled by Alexander the Great in his famous siege…and disappeared totally” (1997: 15).
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  22

  How Did A Proven "Fake," "Phony" Arrangement ["governing body"] ...Become The "Faithful & Discreet Slave" Arrangement???

  by Littleleslie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  question:.

  how did a proven "fake," "phony" arrangement [like "governing body" arrangement]...become the "faithful & discreet slave" arrangement???.

  so then if it can be proven, the "governing body" term and arrangement is a farce, a fake, a made-up nonscriptural arrangement itself, (made up and concocted by nathan knorr & frederick franz in 1944) then how can this fake arrangement now suddenly become the "faithful & discreet slave" that jesus spoke of?

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  Perry

  Perry, is the Watchtower a Christian religion in your view or a cult following the rules of men? If a cult, does that mean they are doomed because they had the Bible to read but failed to show the qualities Jesus Christ said his followers would display?

  BSB,

  Not a cult for following the "rules of men", but a cult because of the reason why they do it. It is OK to follow the rules of men if you want to, for your own various resaons to suit you. That is biblical Christian Freedom. It is NOT OK to follow rules of men for Salvation from judgment. That is idolatry. Your reasons are everything to God and reveal the nature or quality of your faith.

  However, on your second question: Jehovah's Witnesses aren't doomed because they failed to show Christ's qualities. They are doomed because they fail to have faith in Christ Alone; which failure nullifies the contractural obligation of God to pay the sin debt on your behalf through the blood of his only Son. Personal efforts at righteousness are offensive to God, and only serve to pile up more debt for a person on Judgment Day.

  Romans 4

  4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

  5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

  6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

  7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

  8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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  23

  Torah keepers,

  by Mikado in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

  i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

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  Perry

  Mikado,

  Here are two websites that I have found to answer much of pop-cultures' criticism of God and the bible.

  CARM

  Christian Think Tank

  The bible will never make sense unless a few things are established:

  1. We are born enemies of God, in a state of condemnation (John 3:18), being children of Adam

  2. God owes his enemies nothing (except judgment). He is not in our debt, but we are in his the moment we are born. Our good works create more debt, not leniency. (Romans 4:4)

  3. God has chosen to deal with the problem of evil, not by the immediate elimination of it - but through the agency of Judgment (either your own judgement, or vicarious judgment through faith ....ultimately in Jesus' substitutionary death in your place)
• 
  23

  Torah keepers,

  by Mikado in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

  i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

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  Perry

  I meant to read and understand the Bible in a plain or straightforward manner, as opposed to "spiritualizing" like the WT does. After reading the bible for years through a WT lens, it was refreshing to read it in a straight forward manner.

  What books have you found contradictory?
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  18

  JW.ORG has competition!!

  by sparky1 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  even the mennonites won't be left behind in having an out of date and hard to use website!

  this announcement was 2 months ago but still is rather interesting.

  "we are pleased to announce that a new mennonite church usa website will be launched over the weekend of july 5-6!

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  Perry

  The Mennonites have an interesting history being descendants of European believers who did not need the 'services' of the oppressive and apostate Papacy.

  There were many, many groups that were consulted by politically connected individuals that helped spawn what we now refer to as the Reformation.

  Anabaptists

  Albigenses

  Hussites (John Huss)

  Waldenses

  Donatists, etc.

  Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone has a very long history. It is a history that could have saved us all a lot of trouble and kept us out of a cult had we been aware of it.
• 
  104

  How to Avoid the Faithless Spirit of most here-

  by DocHouse in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1- pray to god (whomever you may imagine him to be) asking for understanding.

  2- study the background about the bible (from non-religious sources) to see where it came from.

  3- discard (or at least set aside) chuyrch claims and dogma.. 4- read it, looking up archaeological/historical sources about the places and peoples referred to.

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  Perry

  When I left the WT I told my Presiding Overseer brother that I was going this ALONE with only God having my back. I told him I was rowing my own boat from here on out and God could be the rudder.

  Jesus has not let me down, once I put him fully in charge of my life. It did take a while before I figured out that Jesus was the one that I needed to do business with. Once I got that straight, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING fell into place for me in many different ways.
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  22

  How Did A Proven "Fake," "Phony" Arrangement ["governing body"] ...Become The "Faithful & Discreet Slave" Arrangement???

  by Littleleslie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  question:.

  how did a proven "fake," "phony" arrangement [like "governing body" arrangement]...become the "faithful & discreet slave" arrangement???.

  so then if it can be proven, the "governing body" term and arrangement is a farce, a fake, a made-up nonscriptural arrangement itself, (made up and concocted by nathan knorr & frederick franz in 1944) then how can this fake arrangement now suddenly become the "faithful & discreet slave" that jesus spoke of?

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  Perry

  Most Christian Denominations have the equivalent of the Governing Body.

  This is not true. Most protestant denominations "protested" (hence the term PROTESTANT)this kind of heresy where someone or some group, like the Papacy positioned itself as co-mediator or as an exclusive moutpiece for God to all men on earth. This is a unique characteristic of a cult.
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  2

  Symposium: Those Who Will Inherit God's Kingdom

  by 88JM in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  it's been said before that once you know ttatt, then you listen with very different ears to talks at conventions.

  i thought the second symposium this year on saturday morning of the convention was particularly terrible - here's what i had as the summary of the four parts:.

  those "who are poor".

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  Perry

  The "Christ's brothers" schtick of the WT always bothered me.

  Christ's brothers are primarily his Israeli countrymen. Others were later "grafted in", but that doesn't change the most literal meaning.

  Jesus once said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
• 
  18

  Misleading explanation for the fulfillment of the Prophecy against Tyre

  by opusdei1972 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as we know, nebuchadnezzar could not conquer the island of tyre, so he could not fulfill what was predicted in ezekiel chapter 26. many years later, ezekiel admitted that the prediction failed in chapter 29:.

  17 and it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the lord came to me, saying, 18 son of man, nebuchadnezzar king of babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.

  19 therefore thus says the lord god: surely i will give the land of egypt to nebuchadnezzar king of babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army.

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  Perry

  Here are some other thoughts:

  After a closer look at the text, however, such an interpretation is misguided. Ezekiel began his prophecy by stating that “many nations” would come against Tyre (26:3). Then he proceeded to name Nebuchadnezzar, and stated that “he” would build a siege mound, “he” would slay with the sword, and “he” would do numerous other things (26:7-11). However, in 26:12, the pronoun shifts from the singular “he” to the plural “they.” It is in verse 12 and following that Ezekiel predicts that “they” will lay the stones and building material of Tyre in the “midst of the waters.” The shift in pronouns is of vast significance, since it shifts the subject of the action from Nebuchadnezzar (he) back to the many nations (they). Till and others fail to see this shift and mistakenly apply the utter destruction of Tyre to the efforts of Nebuchadnezzar.

  Furthermore, Ezekiel was well aware of Nebuchadnezzar’s failure to destroy the city. Sixteen years after his initial prediction, in the 27th year of Johoiachin’s captivity (circa 570 B.C. ), he wrote: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it” (29:18). Therefore, in regard to the prophecy of Tyre as it relates to Nebuchadnezzar’s activity, at least two of the elements were fulfilled (i.e., the siege mound and the slaying of the inhabitants in the field).

  Regarding the prediction that “many nations” would come against Tyre, the historical records surrounding the illustrious city report such turmoil and war that Ezekiel’s prophecy looks like a mild understatement of the facts. After Nebuchadnezzar’s attack of the city “a period of great depression” plagued the city which was assimilated into the Persian Empire around 538 B.C. (Fleming, p. 47). In 392 B.C. , “Tyre was involved in the war which arose between the Persians and Evagorus of Cyprus” in which the king of Egypt “took Tyre by assault” (p. 52). Sixty years later, in 332, Alexander the Great besieged Tyre and crushed it (see below for further elaboration). Soon after this defeat, Ptolemy of Egypt conquered and subjugated Tyre until about 315 B.C. when Atigonus of Syria besieged Tyre for 15 months and captured it (Fleming, p. 65). In fact, Tyre was contested by so many foreign forces that Fleming wrote: “It seemed ever the fate of the Phoenician cities to be between an upper and a nether millstone” (p. 66). Babylon, Syria, Egypt, Rome, Greece, Armenia, and Persia are but a sampling of the “many nations” that had a part in the ultimate destruction of Tyre. Thus, Ezekiel’s prophecy about “many nations” remains as a historical reality that cannot be successfully gainsaid.
• 
  23

  Torah keepers,

  by Mikado in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

  i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  Literal should be the mindset when reading the bible.

  Someone once said: "If the plain sense makes sense, do try to change it because you might end up with non-sense"