the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
If you assume a conscious body then you have not chosen the simplest explanation
WSICM,
If you were walking in the woods and found a large wooden carved artwork in the shape of a peacock with some doodle bugs crawling around on it. What would be the simplest explanation to explain its existence?
A. The unconscious doodle bugs did it?
B. A conscious person did it?
The doodle bugs are far simpler than a man, but are not the simplest explanation.
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
Cornbread,
Once you accept a cause beyond our space/time universe Occams razon doesn't apply. The simplest explanation is that space and time were manipulated as opposed to waiting around for 14 billion years.
Think of when you are looking for a particular scene in a movie that you wish to replay to show someone. You can certainly start from the beginning and make your guest wait an hour until the scene emerges, or you could just hit the Fast Forward button.Which is the simplest course of action, assuming the technology?
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
I don't believe the billions of years characterization of the universe. 17 times God says that he manipulated space and time to "stretch" out the heavens.
This action is consistent with someone with the power and intelligence to create space and time in the first place.
If the master inventor of space and time says he did it in 6 days; I believe him.
I do find it interesting that only since Einstein have we been thinking of space and time as a woven fabric, with waves, ripples and indentations. The bible likened it to a fabric back in the "bronze age":
Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain - Ps. 104:2
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
Perry, the only beginnings you have experience with are beginnings within time and space. You have no experience with beginnings outside of time and space. So I'm not sure that it's logical to assume that beginnings outside of time and space require a cause the same as beginnings within time and space.
Island Man,
I am not suggesting that the Cause of the universe had a beginning of any kind. It would by necessity, be an uncaused Cause. Why? Just connect the dots.
We can clearly ascertain that the universe had a beginning. Everything in our universe had a cause. The cause of the universe must be uncaused, otherwise its own cause would preceed it, placing it back in the space time universe which is impossible, if it caused it in the first place. See what I mean? Pretty simple logic.
Some of the folks here are just having a hard time imagining an existence of any kind without time. I suspect because it is a direct negation of Materialism which has been adopted by some who leave the watchtower. The human mind abhors a vacuum.
This argument (not to mention the science behind it) demonstrates the failure of Materialism to explain our existence.
what are some false reasoning's behind some of the wt rules?.
birthdays:.
why is it forbidden as a jw to celebrate birthdays?
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. - 1 Cor. 7
In the plainest reading (not to mention historical understanding) "In the Lord" refers only to those who accept the New Covenant for the remission of their own personal sins. (For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God - Col. 3:3)
This is not meant to be a burden, but to create happiness and to avoid conflict:
And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you - 1 Cor. 7
what are some false reasoning's behind some of the wt rules?.
birthdays:.
why is it forbidden as a jw to celebrate birthdays?
the WT values the holiness of blood over the Jehovah's gift of life.
The whole idea of blood being holy and sacred was to prepare people for a great deliverance from the death penalty prescribed to free moral agents (unlike animals) such as ourselves. The great millstone around every person's neck was going to be overturned one day - "The Wages of Sin is Death"
Not just any blood is holy, that is the point the Watchtower fails to teach. They seem to teach that just any blood is sacred and holy, in itself.
Jesus' blood is holy because he was without sin, did not posses a sin nature like us and he willingly paid the death penalty for the sins each of us are guilty of, if we accept the payment along with the agreement to have our sin nature taken away. Many people don't want their sin nature taken away. God honors choices. Our choices have eternal consequences.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament [or covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mt. 26: 27, 28
Jesus shows in this scripture that his blood covenant is specifically for the remission of sins. Distinctively, the watchtower teaches that the New Covenant is for government positions in his Kingdom, and that it is only available to the mostly already dead 144K. (In other words, not available. Too bad you missed out)
The whole convoluted blood doctrine(s) that the Watchtower teaches is designed to hide in plain sight the simple teaching that permanent escape from sin and death is available for "whosoever will".
And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17)
my eyes for ttatt opened in 1995 with the generation change and the wt magazine stated "some witness thought that the generation started in 1914".
since 1997, with internet at low speed, i followed h2o hourglass, www.xjw.com and later on www.jehovahs-witness.net.. did a bachelor and post bachelor since then.. now, nearly completed with fading, i feel it's time to go on with my life and do some other things, spending more time with my wife abd children instead of thinking about jw topics in my head.
goal is being a better person and less grumpy at 45.... everything what could be said is already said.
My eyes opened with that November 1995 issue of the WT as well.
Good luck.
i found out this morning that my brother died last night, he was also an ex jw, 73 years old and died of heart disease and kidney failure.
it was not totally unexpected, as he had been in poor health, but it's a blow, especially as i just lost another brother two years ago.
there were six of us, now only four.
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
xainhippe,
As previously discussed, the fact that the universe is expanding, is strong evidence (with much scientific support) that not only did the universe have a beginning, but that an Agent or first cause existing outside of the space time universe must have acted upon our universe.
No it isn't.
Then you are left with only magic - our space time universe beginning from nothing.
And if true, Why don't we see cereal boxes appearing from nothing? Or maybe vanilla ice cream? Since, something from nothing has never been observed, why would you adopt this as something logical?
Believing in Materialism is ultimately belief in nothing more than make-believe.
the universe can be observed to be expanding.. an expanding universe must have had a beginning.
whatever begins to exist had a cause.
therefore the universe had a cause.
But Perry God can't be detected, observed, measured or proved.
xainhippe,
As previously discussed, the fact that the universe is expanding, is strong evidence (with much scientific support) that not only did the universe have a beginning, but that an Agent or first cause existing outside of the space time universe must have acted upon our universe.
Otherwise, we are left with a scenario far worse than magic - Something begins from nothing. At least with magic, you start with a magician. Materialism ignores an assumption WAY worse off than magic.
The quantum vacuum that pop philosophers try to prove that things do indeed pop up out of nothing, is in reality "a seething sea of activity that pervades the entire Universe". If is far from "no thing"
This state (of timelessness) that this First Cause must exist in can be predicted by mathematics, but I can't see how anything in this inferred state could be observed, tested, or measured .... unless something from that realm penetrated ours FIRST. Test tube style devices do not work beyond our space time universe.... for any object, let alone God. But the effects can certainly be measured, tested , etc.
If you seek Him, He will be found by you - 1 Chron. 28: 9
I can say that I have personally found this to be true. Unless God penetrates (or transcends) our space/time universe and manifests himself to us; finding, testing, & observing him is impossible, but not his effects.... those are "clearly seen"... so that "we are without excuse" when positing credit for our existence within our space time universe..... without excuse.
Heb. 11: 6 - he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder
