Tyranny uses this tactic because truth threatens their god-like status. Your mother wouldn't be doing this if her idol didn't say it was necessary for her survival.
Idolatry in some form is usually at the bottom of most evils.
Posts by Perry
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21This Thing That Was My Mother
by TimeBandit inthis thing that was my mother.
this thing that was my mother, so withered and blackened now,.
was once so kind and loving, but things have changed somehow.. remember when you'd hold me, and soothe my childhood fears?.
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Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice
by Perry injesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
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Perry
I noticed that you didn't point out anything in particular that you found false.
Given all the evidence, it is not just overwhelming, but staggering. But, we are free moral creatures. We are perfectly free to interpret the evidence any way we choose. If there wasn't such a divergence of opinion, it would cause me to doubt the existence of free moral agency. Instead, it confirms it.
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Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice
by Perry injesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
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Perry
Doug,
Several extra-biblical books are cited in the Bible in addition to Enoch. I have a copy of the book of Jasher that is also cited. It is an exciting read. These are considered historical works (history books) and as such have value. It is up to each person to decide if they are inspired or not.
I personally view these works as uninspired, not infallible history books.
This link covers a number of objections similar to your own, about 4/5 of the way down.
When Dr. Thiede analyzed the fragments from Matthew’s gospel found in Egypt by what is described above as “comparative paleography,” he analyzed these fragments from the gospel of Matthew and compared them with four other well-known and reliable reference manuscripts from a commensurate and known time periods.
• Document one: 79 A.D., from the Herculaneum
• Document two: 73-74 A.D., from Masada
• Document three: 65-66 A.D., from the Egyptian town of Oxyrynchus
• Document four: 58 A.D., from Masada
The style of handwriting from the first century is substantially different from the style of handwriting, just one hundred years later. In order to date a manuscript correctly, a handwriting style that is similar to the papyrus being analyzed must be found. For this reason, the four samples above—which came from similar areas of Israel, close to the same time period, were used. The conclusions from these careful comparisons revealed that many of the letters in these very early manuscripts bore a striking similarity to the letters in the Gospel of Matthew text that Dr. Thiede analyzed.[47]
Because many of the letters and the style of writing were so close, Dr. Thiede concluded that these three papyrus fragments must have been written between the time of the crucifixion, at about 32 A.D, and the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A. D. This places the date of the writing for Matthew’s gospel at the time that he would have been alive and witnessed the actual events that are recorded in his gospel account.[48]
This means that Matthew is most certainly the true author of the gospel of Matthew.
So, if the gospels are all later additions, where are all the polemics attacking such a revision of events? The documents were in existence at the same time as the proported eyewitnesses and authors. The above mentioned fragments were likely original, or 1 gen copies.
I don't think the evidence points to anything other than the gospels being reliable recordings of actual events. Here are a number of other related links.
The Historical Record of Jesus Life from Secular Sources
Historical Evidence For Jesus Resurrection
The Overwhelming Empirical Evidence for Jesus Death and Resurrection
The New Testament Passes Every Literary Test of History
Empirical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Empirical Integrity of the New Testament -
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Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice
by Perry injesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
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Perry
Did/Does Jesus exist?
Seven Billion People today count time by this mans birth. He and his miraculous works are noted in works such as Josephus, The Koran, Tacitus and many more historical sources. Other evidence exists to establish his existence and resurrection as well.
But, just STOP and consider:
•More books have been written about Jesus than about any other person in history.
•Nations have used his words as the bedrock of their governments. According to Durant, "The triumph of Christ was the beginning of democracy."
•His Sermon on the Mount established a new paradigm in ethics and morals.
•Schools, hospitals, and humanitarian works have been founded in his name. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Oxford are but a few universities that have Christians to thank for their beginning.
•The elevated role of women in Western culture traces its roots back to Jesus. (Women in Jesus' day were considered inferior and virtual nonpersons until his teaching was followed.)
•Slavery was abolished in Britain and America due to Jesus' teaching that each human life is valuable.
•Former drug and alcohol dependents, prostitutes, and others seeking purpose in life claim him as the explanation for their changed lives.
•Two billion people call themselves Christians. While some are Christian in name only, others continue to impact our culture by teaching Jesus' principles that all life is valuable and we are to love one another.
Remarkably, Jesus made all of this impact as a result of just a three-year period of public ministry. If Jesus didn't exist, one must wonder how a myth could so alter history.
When world historian H. G. Wells was asked who has left the greatest legacy on history, he replied, "By this test Jesus stands first."
As for the question of whether or not his teachings were faithfully passed down to us: Fortunately, the early disciples of the Apostles were prolific writers and denounced many heresies. In the process, they inadvertently identified who, where and when those heresies were introduced.
The heretics of the first few centuries served another valuable purpose; because in the process of refuting their errors, all but a few sentences of the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from their writings. This allows us to easily determine not only what is sound doctrine, but also the canonicity of scripture.
An excellent collection of these writings can be found here.
While, I appreciate these alternate views being brought up, this thread is really about the Watchtower, and more specifically Fred Franz altering scripture to fit their particular heresies concerning being born again and judgment after death.
It is widely recognized the Fred Franz was the primary (if not sole) translator of the NWT, even though he was a college drop-out with only 2 college hours of Koine Greek and no Hebrew training at all.
Here are a few more related scripture comparisons:
Is. 26: 19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.- KJV
Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust!
For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life. - NWT
The addition of the adjective "powerless" limits who will be resurrected, when Jesus taught that all will have a bodily resurrection, even though not all will be a pleasant one.
Mt. 25: 46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.- KJV
These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.- NWT
This phrase: "cutting-off" gives the impression that there are no future judicial proceedings as Jesus taught (and previously cited in the OP)
1 John 5: 12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. - KJV
The one who has the Son has this life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this life.- NWT
Again, the addition of the word "this" limits the eternal life that absolutely anyone can have by simply believing Jesus is their Savior.
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Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice
by Perry injesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
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Perry
We can also see how uncomfortable Freddy Franz was with a judgement after death in his textual treatment of Job Chapter 19:
For I well know that my redeemer is alive; He will come later and rise up over the earth. After my skin has thus been destroyed, While yet in my flesh, I will see God.... You should know that there is a judge - NWT
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God....that ye may know there is a judgment - KJV
Here Fred adds the word "while" to the verse to try and insinuate that judgment is before death. However, the verse is clear, even in the NWT, that bodily facing God in judgment occurs after the "skin has been destroyed"; or at a later date after death. -
35
Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice
by Perry injesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.
some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.
this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.
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Perry
Jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the Holy Spirit to take up residence within us. Some people get saved by simply inviting Jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life. This serves as a countering force within the born-again Christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our Lord himself.
Attempting to live the Christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside. Jesus said that he who sought to find his life would lose it, and he that sought to lose it for his sake would find it. Three times Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be "born again" in John Chapter 3.
So most folks would agree that the New Testament teaches the choice of being born twice, one physical & one spiritual. Furthermore, since the resurrection of Jesus is such a well attested fact of history, it proves that he has the power of life at his disposal. Once he takes up residence within you, you live as long s he does - in your glorified body, soul and spirit.
But, just as there are two births, the Bible teaches there are two deaths.
Jesus warned that we are to fear the second death more than the first one.
Revelation 20:14 tells us, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
The second death is mentioned again in Revelation 21:8, which says, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
One commentator wrote, "The second death is the continuance of spiritual death in another and timeless existence."
Another wrote, "Eternity to the godly is a day that has no sunset. Eternity to the wicked is a night that has no sunrise."
Jesus spoke of hell in a very specific way. He warned of the fire of hell (see Matthew 5:22). He warned about our bodies being thrown into hell (see Matthew 5:29). And He spoke of the soul and the body being destroyed in hell (see Matthew 10:28).
The Bible teaches that all Christians, defined as sinners who have been converted by putting their faith in Jesus Christ will avoid condemnation. And, that offer of forgiveness is for everyone.
Your eternal destination is really your choice. Not everyone will be saved in the end - only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ.
The purpose of this thread is to point out that not only has the Watchtower Corporation sought to deny the choice of being born again to their adherents (through the doctrine of the 144k and denial of the new covenant to general members at the Memorial), they also seek to deny the choice of we face concerning the second death.
One of the ways they do this is by altering a scripture in the new Testament to say something it does not say and something that contradicts Jesus. Here it is in the King James and the NWT at Hebrews 9: 27:
it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment - KJV
it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment - NWTCatch the difference? Sometimes the New Word translators add brackets to inserted words so the reader will know this was added to the original text, presumably for clarification. However they chose not to put brackets around the added words "for all time" even though this phrase in not in the original or later manuscripts.
Why doesn't the Watchtower want people to believe that there is a second death as Jesus taught? For the same reason that they don't want people to accept the New Covenant "for forgiveness of sins" as Jesus taught in Mt. 26:27, 28
Just as the Watchtower teaches that the New Covenant isn't possible for us (sorry all the positions were already filled long ago) , they also teach that the second death isn't possible for us either. However, God is clear that the unsaved will be reunited with their physical bodies and face Jesus in Judgment at the Great White Throne - fully alive; body, soul & spirit - after the Millennium Reign.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
This what was meant when Peter stated that there would be a resurrection of both the Righteous and the Unrighteous.
To make all this even more twisted, the Watchtower proudly teaches that the Unrighteous will be resurrected to a paradise earth!! (They take another scripture completely out of context to support this - but that is for another discussion)
The bible is clear that the resurrection of the Unrighteous is not for the purpose of petting lions and cobras during the Millennium Reign as the Watchtower fantasizes about. Rather, it is for the stated purpose of God fulfilling his duty as Judge of moral creatures.
the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just - Jesus
We humans really like most of the differences that we have with all other animals. We readily accept notions of morality, goodness, art, beauty etc. What we don't like is the fact that with great gifts, comes great responsibility. There is a price that must be paid for the creation of free moral creatures such as ourselves. That price is judgment.
God, in his benevolence so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -
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Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong
by purrpurr ini've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.
he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .
then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!
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Perry
Here is a refutation of one of the reasons for doubting that Daniel was a Prophet:
(Full Article Here with other Objections)
First, a technical objection is sometimes made that Daniel was placed in the "Writings" and not the "Prophets." Hamner [Hamn.Dan, 1; see also DilHart.BDan, 25] writes:
The Hebrew canon consists of three divisions, the 'Law', the 'Prophets', and the 'writings', and Daniel is included in the third and last division. This suggests that the book was not known by 200 B.C. , about the time when the collection of prophetic writings was assembled.
And Driver [Driv.BD, xivii-xiviii] said earlier:
...there are strong reasons for thinking that the threefold division represents three stages in the collection and canonization of the sacred books of the O.T.,--the Pent. being canonized first, then the 'Prophets' (in the Jewish sense of the expression), and lastly the Kethubim. The collection of the 'Prophets' could hardly have been completed before the third century B.C.; and had the Book of Daniel existed at the time, and been believed to be the work of a prophet, it is difficult not to think that it would have ranked accordingly, and been included with the writings of the other prophets.
In response to this objection, Archer [Arch.DEx, 7-8] writes:
As for the placement of Daniel in the Masoretic arrangement of the canon, this is completely without evidential force. Writing in the east first century A.D. Josephus made the following statement concerning the Hebrew canon (Contra Apion I, 38-39 [8]): 'We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time.' He then broke these twenty-two books down into three categories: five books of Moses (ie., the Pentateuch), thirteen books of the Prophets, and the remaining four books that 'embrace hymns to God and counsels for men for the conduct of life.' The four books of poetry and wisdom were unquestionably Psalms, Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes. These four constituted the entire third division of the canon---the Writings---in Josephus's day, rather than the thirteen assigned to it by the Masoretes of the late first millennium A.D.
As for the thirteen books of the Prophets, as recognized in the first century A.D., they were apparently the Former Prophets, including Joshua, Judges-Ruth, the two books of Samuel, the two books of Kings, the two books of Chronicles, Isaiah, Jeremiah-Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel (which were classified by the second century B.C. LXXs Major Prophets), the Twelve Minor Prophets as one volume (since they could all be included in one large scroll), Song of Solomon, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Esther. There is no possibility that Josephus could have regarded Daniel as belonging to the Writings. Very clearly he included it among the Prophets, along with Solomon's prophetic parable of love (S of Songs) and the exilic and postexilic books of history, all of which were composed from a prophetic perspective. Therefore, we are forced to conclude that the Masoretic division of the canon, coming as it did six or seven centuries after Flavius Josephus, has no bearing whatever on the date of Daniel's composition or on its status as a truly prophetic work.
And Whitcomb [Whit.BD, 15-6] adds:
Most conservative Old Testament scholars believe that Daniel was not placed among the prophets in our present Hebrew Bible because he served in a foreign court, did not prophesy directly to the people of Israel, and included much historical material in the book. But, significant evidence is available that Daniel was originally counted among the prophets and was only shifted to another category of canonical books of Hebrew scribes in the fourth century A.D.
First, Daniel was listed among the prophets in the Septuagint translation (hence the position of our English Bibles through the medium of the Vulgate). Second, Josephus (first century A.D.) listed Daniel among the prophets. Third, Melito, bishop of Sardis (A.D.70), did the same. Fourth, Origen (d. A.D. 254) listed Daniel before Ezekiel and the twelve prophets. R. Laird Harris thus argues not only for the full canonicity of the book of Daniel but also its inclusion among the prophetic books in the most ancient Hebrew collections.
And Archer says elsewhere [Arch.SOT, 388-9]:
The Masoretes may have been influenced in this reassignment by the consideration that Daniel was not appointed or ordained as a prophet, but remained a civil servant under the prevailing government throughout his entire career. Second, a large percentage of his writings does not bear the character of prophecy, but rather history (Chap.1-6), such as does not appear in any of the books of the canonical prophets. Little of what Daniel wrote is couched in the form of a message from God relayed through the mouth of His spokesman.
These findings are confirmed by Koch [Koch.DanP], who points out that Daniel was regarded as being among the prophets in the NT, in the LXX, and at Qumran. The shift to the Writings, he says, was not until the 5th-8th century AD.
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If Jehovah hates magic, why is it ok to go to Magic theme parks such as Disneyland the Magic Kingdom and not be disfellowshipped for it?
by Greybeard inif jehovah hates magic, why is it ok to go to magic theme parks such as disney land the magic kingdom?
i grew up a jw and we all went to disney land and magic mountain.
if jehovah hates magic then why are these places not forbidden?
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Perry
I don't mind the hot jets, burns the fuel more efficiently than on idle. I'm leaving for Europe shorty, so this will be my last post for a little bit. Just some from-the-hip thoughts to your comments:
Would you say Jesus had access to hidden knowledge?
I say that Jesus was unique. He was flesh and blood like you and me as the son of Mary. But I believe his spirit was the substance of God himself. That is why he could both truthfully say that the Father was greater than he, and at other times equate himself with God. He willingly made his human animal (flesh) subservient to his own Spirit, the essence of God himself. He was fully man and fully God.
With us it is different. We are not the Source, he was.
To be honest with you, I would trust a person who practices Yoga, classified as occult by many, more than I trust most people who claim to be Christian.
God says we are fools and cursed if we put trust in ANY men, that includes ourselves, since we are men.
"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm"
Did he not say, let them become one as we are one?
Yes. Unification with God comes when we abandon our self to him, through Christ and to Christ.
- "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
This is the kind of trust or faith that produces oneness with God. It is also the path to the power source.
As far as the Bible goes, who put those 66 books together? The Roman Catholic Church. ....Can you imagine what must have happened in the first century?
We have a very good record of Pre-Catholic 1st, 2nd & 3rd century writings of Christians.
Highly recommend :
Ancient Church Fathers: What the Disciples of the Apostles Taught by Ken Johnson
Caption:
The Ancient Church Fathers reveals the disciples of the twelve apostles, and what they taught, from their own writings. It documents that the same doctrine was faithfully transmitted to their descendants in the first few centuries. It also describes where, when, and by whom, the doctrines began to change. The ancient church fathers make it very easy to know for sure what the complete teachings of Jesus and the twelve apostles were. You will learn, from their own writings, what the first century disciples taught about the various doctrines that divide our church today. You will learn what was discussed at the Seven General Councils and why. You will learn about the cults and cult leaders who began to change doctrine and spread their heresy. And you will learn how those heresies became the standard teaching in the medieval church.All but a handful of verses in the New Testament are quoted in the writings of the disciples of the apostles, establishing the continuity of what the apostles taught.
The law of Karma taught by Yoga makes more logical since to me then the book of law that says as you quoted, ""if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
The dispensation of Law ended in the utter failure of Man to be good (enough), there was a judgment at that time and a new beginning....just like the prior dispensations. Doing good more and more is important, it is just not good enough for oneness with God and for salvation from sin and death. God didn't do away with our works in the age of Grace, he just cast off the source of that goodness and posited it with himself. This is offensive to our pride, but was demonstrably necessary.
For that to be true, the word "confess" must mean more than simply giving lip service to Jesus. You must act like Jesus and Jesus was all about NOT judging others, he was all about unconditional love. He even prayed for and forgave those who killed him.
And no one can do that without trusting in Jesus, and abandoning themselves to him ALONE....that is the key. Real Christian faith allows for trusting others, just not trusting in them. It also calls for going to a gathering of believers, but not trusting in that particular association.
We didn't do that with the WT. We put trust in them, and true to Gods word that I quoted earlier, we were cursed in many ways because of it.
Time for a new direction.
Peace, Favor & Blessing to you.
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If Jehovah hates magic, why is it ok to go to Magic theme parks such as Disneyland the Magic Kingdom and not be disfellowshipped for it?
by Greybeard inif jehovah hates magic, why is it ok to go to magic theme parks such as disney land the magic kingdom?
i grew up a jw and we all went to disney land and magic mountain.
if jehovah hates magic then why are these places not forbidden?
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Perry
By anyones standards today, Jesus would be considered a healer, magician, wizard, sorcerer and psychic....... Maybe Jehovah hates magic because he wants to be the only one who can do it. Didn't Jesus free them from those old laws of Jehovah?
If Jesus was God incarnate like he presented himself to be, and as the apostles believed him to be, ie.
1. the angels should worship him
2. He created the heavens and the earth
3. Hebrews Ch. 1 & Rev. Ch. 1
4. He had the authority to forgive sins committed against God, something only God can do
Then, the source of his power was not the occult but from THE SOURCE of all energy, knowledge, wisdom. God rightly asks to acknowledge Him as the only legitimate source of power, and as the one that will teach us to wield this power with responsibility consistent with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Your comments on the power of words is interesting. I have given a lot of thought to this in recent years. I have come to the conclusion that There is great power in words, not in an occult kind of way, although it could be. And,not necessarily just from a born again child of God.
God spoke the worlds into existence. We are created in his image. Could he have left a vestige of this spoken creativity in the human design? I sense that our words have some effect on possible realities that are coming our way as we pass through space/time ether.
"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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Evidence for a Young Earth
by Perry infor additional information:.
for additional information:.
for additional information:.
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Perry
You have a long way to go to prove there is Dino tissue in fossils.
No, I do not:
As listed by Dr. Walt Brown…
- allegedly 17 million year old magnolia leaf contains DNA (Scientific American 1993)
- allegedly 18 million year old salamander muscle and vessels filled with blood (Proc. Roy. Soc. 2009)
- allegedly 40 million year old bee fossil contains LIVING bacteria (Science 1995)
- allegedly 120 million year old insect fossil contains DNA (Nature 1993)
- allegedly 200 million year old fish fossil contains DNA (Science. News 1992)
- allegedly 400 million year old fish amino acids (Journal of Applied Genetics 2003).
- allegedly 600 million year old rock contains LIVING bacillus (Nature 2000).Here you will find a comprehensive list of scientific articles representing 20 years of dinosaur soft tissue documentation.
It is a fact. Just take a deep breath and deal with it.