Posts by Perry

102

Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

by kpop in

jw
friends

alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

Perry

The dead experience nothing therefore they don't lose anything. Death doesn't harm the dead.

That is what the WT taught us. But it is not biblical.

Rev. 6 - I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Clearly death doesn't mean annihilation of consciousness like the WT teaches. From the above verse, you can deduce that souls have their original identity (mind), have emotion, & memories.

The definition of death isn't non-existence. It means that the soul and body are separated when the body "sleeps" or stops functioning. That is the biblical definition of death.

The greatest hope of atheists, which they have no empirical data to support: is that when they die, their consciousness will stop. It is a vain, unfounded hope.

Unfortunately, they fail to realize that this was never part of the original design. We were created in the image of an eternal God, that we might fellowship with him forever.

Without Jesus, they will experience eternal separation from God, their second greatest wish.... that is until they actually get what they want. But, then it is too late. Eternal, conscious loneliness (outer darkness.) And, that is a best case scenario. Other scriptures suggest much worse, forever.

Can you definitively prove that:

There is the bible, there are millions of NDE and Terminal Lucidity cases that suggest this. And, I have personal experience that leaves no doubt for me that the soul absolutely can function without the body.

102

Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

by kpop in

jw
friends

alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

Perry

kpop,

Are you sure that when you die - nothing?

After studying this topic for many years, I am convinced that the greatest threat to my well-being isn't death, cults, atheists, political parties, or taxes etc. The greatest threat to me is: unending consciousness after death.

Imagine eternity, alone, bored, separated from anything that might be considered "good". God is good. No heat, no laughter, no human touch, no cool water, no art, no beauty, no love; just barren nothingness... experiencing only yourself for eternity.

My mother recently died. Because I am so brazen as to enter into Christian belief apart from the Watchtower, my father and elder brothers didn't even call me while she was in hospice. (Previously, this wasn't a problem when one needed to borrow some money)

When I found out a month later, by only the sheer power of the Holy Spirit was I able to calmly sit down with my father and get the details of what happened....without so much as feeling the slightest bit of anger with him. (plenty of anger at other times, that's for sure).

Because of this, I was able to hear the bone-chilling story of my mother's demise. My mother's soul was in deep distress before her passing. The doctors had her drugged up with double the amount necessary to knock someone out. Yet, she would "break out" of her listlessness at times and scream out.. "I don't wan't to die!"

She would "break through" at other times and yell out other fears shortly before her death. She was experiencing what is know as "terminal lucidity". It is quite common for patients to be completely coherent shortly before death.... even if their brain has been destroyed from Alzheimers, cancer and the like.

How can someone be lucid when their brain is all eaten up with cancer, Alzheimer etc? This is powerful evidence of the existence of the soul (mind) that survives the demise of the body.

This is consistent with what the bible says. We were made in the image of an eternal God. So, in order for us to enjoy him forever, the soul is eternal.... even in the case of the body being destroyed.

Just do a search on - TERMINAL LUCIDITY

You'll find all kinds of data on this.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Perry

I distinctly remember where I was sitting when I became self aware that atheists don't exist.

When I left the Watchtower, I wrote off anything of a spiritual / religious nature. I felt it was my logical duty. Self-preservation was a noble endeavor I reasoned. Atheist/Agnosticism was my attempt at "not being something", and I was initially comfortable with settling for that.

Then, comes my atheist philosophy professor. I thought, finally I'll get to learn some real logic for a change instead of all this religious B. S.

I was shocked when after we had learned the basics of a logical argument, that he spent the rest of the semester bashing Christianity. In order to show how illogical Christianity was, he first had to explain some of academic Christians basic arguments. He introduced me to Tozer, C.S. Lewis and others.

This was mind-blowing to me that he was so serious about such a monumental waste of time. While the arguments were good, that was not what prompted me to pop the hood of Christianity again for another look. It was his incessant critique of Christianity that piqued my interest. I thought, Really? This is what higher education is doing.

I was ready for the meat, and I was getting empty served vegetable plates. Reluctantly, I had to plow through the arguments to get a good grade. And then boom! I realized that the assumptions that my professor had were infinitely far greater hoops to jump through than the Christian had. I then realized there was no escape from reason.

I guess if God can preach his message to a hard headed prophet through a talking ass, he had no problem witnessing to me through my atheist college professor. I am eternally grateful to him for his obsessiveness.

Here's a nice read for those new to thinking outside the Watchtower box.

Vigorous Critique of Irrational, Incoherent, Excessive, Arbitrary, & Relentless Atheist Demands for “Empirical” Proofs of God’s Existence

The source appears to be from a Catholic website, and while I think the Catholic brand has some serious doctrinal problems, I give credit where credit is due. Other non catholic sources are here, no particular order.

Norm Geisler: normangeisler.net.
William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org
Ravi Zacharias: RZIM.org
John Lennox: John Lennox.org
Greg Koukl: STR.org
J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com
Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com
Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/
Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com
Josh McDowell: Josh.org
Discovery Institute (Dembski, Meyer, Richards, Luskin, Wells): www.Discovery.org
C.S. Lewis: CSLewis.org
Gary Habermas: GaryHabermas.com
Timothy McGrew: http://historicalapologetics.org/
Dr. Michael Brown: AskDrBRown.org
Richard Howe: Richardghowe.com
Tim Keller: TimothyKeller.com
J. Budziszewski: Undergroundthomist.org
Hank Hanegraaff: Equip.org
Hugh Ross: Reasons.org

21

Restless Days and Nights

by compound complex in

jw
friends

it is a bad time to be awake;.

i see things i do not wish to see.. i have feelings i do not wish to feel.. if i could return to sleep, the deception.

of sweet slumber would assure that even a. nightmare might offer an escape, escape from.

Perry

Jeremiah 31:26 "At this I awoke and looked, and my sleep was pleasant to me."

Psalm 127:2 "It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil; for he gives to his beloved sleep."

Proverbs 3:24 "When you lie down, you will not be afraid; When you lie down, your sleep will be sweet."

26

Is Jehovah God guilty of the Sin of Omission ?

by smiddy in

in genesis ch.1&2 god warns adam that if he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad he would die .theire was nothing said about anything else.. you would expect humans would just die of old age like adam and eve did.. the wages of sin is death the bible tells us .so if he disobeyed jehovah god he knew he would die .. what he never knew and neither did any other human to come after him was just how many ways death would come to humans.. death by creatures that were created by god venomous creatures ,snakes spiders etc.,marine creatures sharks etc., bacteria /viruses etc.,insect carrying diseases such as the mosquito that causes thousands of deaths to children under 5 years old even today with malaria.,wild animals etc,.leprosy that even existed under theocratic rule in the nation of israel.. then their is the indignties humans go through in old age ,loss of bodily functions , mental capacity ,alzheimers ,neurological diseases that effect young and old.that reduce people to almost live not much better than a vegetable .

natural disasters not to be excluded because these are in the control of god to afflict mankind or not.. the list of afflictions that humans have to suffer through before they die , from a loving god just boggles my mind.. and i have only scratched the surface of indignities humans have faced before they die.. so i ask the question is god jehovah guilty of the sin of omission ?

or did he act out of vengeance for their disobedience and wanted to inflict greater punishment upon them.for disobeying him.. what are your thoughts ?.

Perry

Adam was not deceived

True.... but

Eve chose to not believe God, but another source.

Adam chose to not believe in Gods goodness and ability to overcome Eve's sin.... which we NOW know was overcome with the sacrifice of God himself in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

God asks rhetorically in scripture:

Is there anything that is too hard for me?

So here we have our first parents really struggling with having FREE WILL.

One chose unbelief, one chose death for not enough belief.

26

Is Jehovah God guilty of the Sin of Omission ?

by smiddy in

in genesis ch.1&2 god warns adam that if he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad he would die .theire was nothing said about anything else.. you would expect humans would just die of old age like adam and eve did.. the wages of sin is death the bible tells us .so if he disobeyed jehovah god he knew he would die .. what he never knew and neither did any other human to come after him was just how many ways death would come to humans.. death by creatures that were created by god venomous creatures ,snakes spiders etc.,marine creatures sharks etc., bacteria /viruses etc.,insect carrying diseases such as the mosquito that causes thousands of deaths to children under 5 years old even today with malaria.,wild animals etc,.leprosy that even existed under theocratic rule in the nation of israel.. then their is the indignties humans go through in old age ,loss of bodily functions , mental capacity ,alzheimers ,neurological diseases that effect young and old.that reduce people to almost live not much better than a vegetable .

natural disasters not to be excluded because these are in the control of god to afflict mankind or not.. the list of afflictions that humans have to suffer through before they die , from a loving god just boggles my mind.. and i have only scratched the surface of indignities humans have faced before they die.. so i ask the question is god jehovah guilty of the sin of omission ?

or did he act out of vengeance for their disobedience and wanted to inflict greater punishment upon them.for disobeying him.. what are your thoughts ?.

Perry

Seem to me she FIRST based her decision on the more believable information presented?

A slithering snake was more believable than God whom she and Adam communicated with face to face daily?

Millions of people choose to believe God under FAR worse conditions.

26

Is Jehovah God guilty of the Sin of Omission ?

by smiddy in

in genesis ch.1&2 god warns adam that if he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad he would die .theire was nothing said about anything else.. you would expect humans would just die of old age like adam and eve did.. the wages of sin is death the bible tells us .so if he disobeyed jehovah god he knew he would die .. what he never knew and neither did any other human to come after him was just how many ways death would come to humans.. death by creatures that were created by god venomous creatures ,snakes spiders etc.,marine creatures sharks etc., bacteria /viruses etc.,insect carrying diseases such as the mosquito that causes thousands of deaths to children under 5 years old even today with malaria.,wild animals etc,.leprosy that even existed under theocratic rule in the nation of israel.. then their is the indignties humans go through in old age ,loss of bodily functions , mental capacity ,alzheimers ,neurological diseases that effect young and old.that reduce people to almost live not much better than a vegetable .

natural disasters not to be excluded because these are in the control of god to afflict mankind or not.. the list of afflictions that humans have to suffer through before they die , from a loving god just boggles my mind.. and i have only scratched the surface of indignities humans have faced before they die.. so i ask the question is god jehovah guilty of the sin of omission ?

or did he act out of vengeance for their disobedience and wanted to inflict greater punishment upon them.for disobeying him.. what are your thoughts ?.

Perry

God warns Adam that if he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad he would die .

My thoughts: Prior to sinning, Adam and Eve would have had to FIRST chose to not believe God.

It makes no difference whether the source of the lie they chose to believe came from themselves, another creature, a future cult etc.

God, in his wisdom created humans with the capacity of free moral choice. Those innate notions of morality will always be defined, developed and ultimately judged in relation to their source of person hood, intelligence & consequences.

How much information about evil is necessary? It is never enough. Just turn on the evening news. It makes little difference whether or not people hear a simple statement about death being the result of separation from a loving God, or if they are presented with the myriad ways death and evil can occur. Some choose to believe God, some don't.

The issue is not the evil that naturally flows from choosing not to believe God, but rather the rationale for the choice to begin with.

More information regarding the consequences of choosing not to believe God only magnifies the irrationality and does not prevent it.

That fact alone proves that free moral choice is real and places the destiny for each agent within their own capacities; which is where we would expect to find it posited in a moral system based on freedom.

35

February 26, 2017 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS Re: Witnessing in Public Places

by wifibandit in

february 26, 2017 to all bodies of elders re: witnessing in public places.

and.

february 25, 2017 to all congregations re: magnetic boards and posters for public witnessing.

Perry

If a small administrative fee is needed in order to acquire space in a public area, it is to be paid by the individual publisher, not the congregation. Publishers should... see what responsibility they are taking upon themselves with respect to liability and possible proof of insurance coverage.

There, the words in bold should provide a clearer meaning.

The Watchtower merely provides you with the idols, (literature and carts).

You provide the devotion....transportation, time, gas, liability, money for the idols, cart stocking & un-stocking, salesmanship, applications, administrative fees, insurance requirements, field service reports, food & refreshments, healthcare, retirement, etc.

If there is some problem, remember that you are the one who took this upon yourself ....its not our problem.

they bind heavy burdens...on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them
with one of their fingers. - Jesus

Not much has changed.

58

No more official visits to disfellowshipped & disassociated ones

by AverageJoe1 in

new letter today (please visit avoidjw.org for a copy of the official letter and yes, i also noticed they got the date wrong!).

february 28, 2017. to all bodies of elders.

re: visiting disfellowshipped or disassociated individuals.

Perry

For example, if a disfellowshipped individual gives some evidence of changing his ways...

Run Faster, Jump Higher & Leap through more hoops? No thanks. I starred in their dog and pony show for long enough.

Christianity is not a willpower religion. It is not a religion of decisions to do what you don't want to do. It is a supernatural work of God by which you are born again so that you want God more than you want anything else. —John Piper

For far too long, I thought Christianity was all about being a rule-follower through my will-power. What a relief to discover it's a far more beautiful, thrilling and permanent thing than that.

WHICH THINGS HAVE INDEED A SHEW OF WISDOM IN WILL WORSHIP - Gal. 2;23

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. - 2 tim. 3:5

22

I need some serious help

by bulldogg1877 in

jw
friends

i grew up a jw kid until the age of twelve.

since then i have lived a worldly life.

i have enjoyed alot of my life experiences, but i now feel like i am lost.

Perry

I grew up a JW kid until the age of twelve....Since then I have lived a worldly life. I have enjoyed a lot of my life experiences, but I now feel like I am lost. I have made some terrible choices recently that may affect how the rest of my life carries out. Now at the age of 41, I crave spiritual guidance.

Sin is corrosive and progressive. It has its own will quite apart from our own will at times. It is not the sins that we are OK with that ruin our lives in this life, it is the ones that we are not OK with that do it.

Since God knows far more that us, he knows that all sin will lead to harm to ourselves or to others....not just the ones that we can see are harmful. If you want a solution to all sin, you should probably go find a nice non-denominational church and attend some Sunday.

Professional counseling can help too, but won't get to the root of the problem. I spent a lot of money and time on professional counseling and in buying and reading self-help books when I left.

While somewhat helpful, it does not even compare to getting born again, which is a supernatural attack on the sin nature itself.