Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

nicolau says:

Job's children were innocent of any crime and yet god authorised their deaths anyway. You are using your religious beliefs to justify the deaths of innocents. Isn't that what terrorists do?

Allowance doesn't equal causation. False analogy.

The devil is the ultimate terrorist. But your point is well taken. Should God make a world capable of evil and then prevent the possibility of evil? How does that work? Who defines what is evil so as to prevent it?

Should God prevent us from burning our hand on a hot stove? Should he make it impossible for little kids to have their fingers closed on a car door? Maybe just take away our fingers so they don't get hurt?

This materialist critique of God falls quite short once examined. Just review the condition of someone who has a birth defect and cannot feel pain. Go tell his mama about your supposed utopia.

The whole concept of Freedom is under scrutiny here. The devil caused the evil theft of Job's wealth, health and children. But, it was God who wrote the end of the story wasn't it?

"If the thief be found let him pay double" - Ex. 22: 7

God was the one who liberated, blessed and "caused to become" the final fate of Job. But what about his children? Why did Job get twice as much wealth, but only the same number of children once the Evil had passed?

The answer is because God writes the end of the story. Job and all of his children are in heaven right now.

What believers have seen with their own experience (once they make friends with God through the blood of Christ) , is that God has not changed in the least. He stills allows evil, he still limits it; and still liberates, blesses, and writes the end of the stories.

Romans 8: 28 is the bubble that successful Christians live by.

all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God will either remove the evil from my life or he will enable me by his Grace to go through the evil and get to the other side of it. Either way, the outcome will be "good".

Evil will be punished, forever.

God's children will seen "good" forever.

As JW's we were constantly told to "wait on Jehovah". This was a hugh mistake to do this without first being pardoned by God through the blood covenant of his Son. (The one we rejected each Memorial) Unbelievers still get relief from evil when God acts, but his promises (about writing the end of the story) are to those "who are called".

Judgment & Sonship, are God's solutions to the problem of evil - not the elimination of freedom.

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

A parent saw a book lying on the kitchen counter. He opens it mid-way through and reads a bit. The part he read was particularly gruesome. While still alive, someone was getting sliced open with a knife.

He recoiled in disgust and slammed the book shut. He then asked his daughter how she could read such disgusting stuff.

The daughter explained that the book was an autobiography of one of the greatest physicians who ever lived. Not only did he pioneer tedious cancer surgery, his patients had an amazing successful healing rate.

She smirked slyly, and said, "Dad, You just didn't read the end of the story".

God writes the end of the stories, Job's story, my story, & your story.

The problem of evil is very real, but God writes the end of that story as well.

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

All ancient bible teaching Cofty; although not necessary. Just reading the bible and believing it leads to the same conclusion.

This verse is connected to what Jesus had been telling Nicodemus, although the connection is not immediately obvious. The verse is cited in the Ante-Nicene commentaries of Tertullian, Hippolytus, Novatian, Archelaus, and is also included in the ancient Syriac Diatessaron of Tatian.

Nicodemus understood Christ to be a great teacher and perhaps a prophet because of the miracles he had performed (John 3:2). In verse 13, Jesus is extending his dialog with Nicodemus to reveal that He is much more than a prophet. No mere man, he says, hath ever ascended up to heaven as he will.

Theophylact (11th century Byzantine commentator) summarizes the Patristic interpretation of this verse as follows:
Because Nicodemus thought Jesus was a teacher and prophet, the Lord now says to him, "Do not imagine that I am an earthly prophet sent by God. I came down from heaven as Son of God, and I am not from the earth. No prophet hath ascended up to heaven.* I alone shall ascent, as I descended."
When you hear that the Son of man came down from heaven, do not imagine that flesh came down from heaven. (Apollinarius taught this heresy: Christ came down from heaven in the body and entered the world through the Virgin as through a channel.) Since Christ has two natures united in one hypostasis, or person, the names that refer to His human nature may also be addressed to God the Word; conversely, the names that refer to the divine Word may be addressed to Christ as man. Thus, in this verse, Christ calls Himself the Son of man, Who came down from heaven.
The Lord adds the words Who is in heaven for a specific reason: "When you hear Me say that I came down to earth, do not imagine that I am no longer in heaven. I am here in the body on earth, and at the same time co-enthroned there with the Father in my divine nature.
- Explanation of the Gospel of John; Chrystopher Stade, trans. (Chrysostom Press, 2007), p. 51
It also may be worth pointing out that Christ is no longer speaking to Nicodemus only, but to all Jews. When He begins his discourse, he addresses Nicodemus only - in the singular:

Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι
Verily, verily, I say unto thee

In the same sentence, though, he shifts to the plural:
οὐ λαμβάνετε
and ye receive not our witness.
The archaic King James English preserves the distinction between the singular and plural forms of "you" ("thee" and "ye", respectively). The distinction is lost in modern translations.

Link

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

Hence how could he say he has ascended into heaven at the start of his ministry?

Venus,

Once you understand that there are three "YOUs" Just as there are three that make up the ONE GOD, it makes perfect sense.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess. 5: 23

So, acording to scripture, you are constructed as three parts - that as a "whole" AND individually can be accurately referred to as "YOU". The Watchtower denies the biblical tri-partite nature of man and adopts a materialist definition. This is where many theological problems with the Watchtower originate.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. - John 3: 13

Clearly, Jesus was in two places at the same time. Paul also tells of a man who went to the third heaven.... another case of someone being in two places at the same time.

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

True, for most of us Nick...until shortly before an imminent death. For many people then, it gets real clear real fast.

But we don't have to wait till then; we can enjoy an "abundant life" and "rule in this life" now, as a member of God's family.

I was never comfortable dying to myself. But, I did the math. Now I enjoy blessings from my father. I highly recommend it.

Slimboyfat / Cofty,

I do hope you all see the uselessness in continuing that argument. Cofty pretends to accept the premise (definition) of God as being Eternal, all Powerful, all-Knowing and all-Just. He uses the term "God" but doesn't accept the same definition that most everyone else uses. He uses a different god that he can assume superiority over.

It is delusional. If Cofty would accept the dictionary definition of God, then his conclusion would contradict his premise.

But Cofty usually gets offended when called on this contradiction and plows on asserting the impossible: Though not eternal, all-just and all-powerful himself, he is comfortable in denouncing that which is. This is called cognitive dissonance - holding two impossible beliefs that contradict one another at the same time.

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

Venus,

So you are impressed with Jesus teachings? You do well. Nicodemus was also impressed at this departure from the religion of his day. However, this wasn't enough... three times Jesus told him that he must be "Born Again"; else he would never see, enter or inherit the Kingdom of God.

This is a hard teaching. Not only must we be in agreement with Christ, but we must allow the formation of a new spirit within us, one born of God. Our hearts must be circumcised. This is somewhat painful, if only to our intellect and pride.

Most of us are quite happy with our first birth and see no need for another one. But, Jesus also threw a bucket of cold water on some other common folks that were getting pretty excited about his teachings.

John 6

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him...This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”...

He (Jesus) said to them, “Does this offend you? ... 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing....

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags

Romans 3: 9 - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The requirement of being born again (letting God in on the inside so that he can be the arbiter of right and wrong) is extremely offensive to our flesh.

But even worse than that, is the requirement to "die as unto ourself". This requirement triggers an all-out war against God, from our flesh. It doesn't want to give up control.

The bottom line is that as much as we like Jesus' teachings, we simply cannot essentially live them. God must do that for us, in us.

We must believe God and then receive God. Believe and receive. OUR Works has NOTHING to do with it, "else Christ died for nothing."

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

This is what God wants—each one should make his own conclusion

And, the ability to choose comes at a great price, both to man and to God.

All the logic in the world is totally untrue if the underlying premise or assumption is wrong.

False Premise: We are God's Children.
True premise: We are God's enemies.

God adopts certain individuals based on their faith, or belief in him. When Adam fell, all future copies of him that were in him fell as well. None of them could legally claim God as their father except through some additional contractual arrangement like adoption.

So, God had no legal obligation to man other than the fulfillment of his own prophecy in Genesis 3: 15. Because of that ultimate future defeat of Satan (not by God, no that would be too easy - but by a man), God purposed a people, a lineage and a King. God has and still does intervene in human affairs to allow for this purpose during the dispensation of the Millennium Reign. It cannot be undone...it's going to happen.

BUT, love has its own rationale too, just like the legal side does. Love doesn't require a moral imperative to express itself.

The Old Testament offered a National Contract to Israel for it's continued existence. It was not conditioned upon belief, obedience, or anything else in order to be ratified. The largely modern secular state of Israel is mighty testimony to God's faithfulness, and to the one-sidedness of that agreement mediated by Moses.. All humans on earth will serve an Israeli King one day.

But, Individual salvation (adoption by God) has always been achieved by faith. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness".

God's ultimate goal is Love. The reciprocal nature of Loves' expression between two parties requires belief in one another to some extent. At least belief in the potential future growth, appreciation and positive effects of the love's expression between the parties. God IS Love.

When we were all JW's we had a maladaptive relationship with a thing, not a Person. Sure, we convinced ourselves that we loved God, but our choices (works) proved that we loved our organization more. We were never children of God as JW's. God gave us what we wanted. He always does.

So how does a person have a relationship with someone who knows everything, and also knows everything that will ever be known? The only proper response to that reality, is to believe him.

If you believe in God, then he believes in you as a person, as his child. God writes the endings of the stories of his children.

131

Why Do People Oppose Jehovah's Witnesses?

by BlackSpirit in

jesus christ, the son of the most high god, jehovah has this to say: "if the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you.

if you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own.

now because you are no part of the world, but i have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.

Perry

Did the JWs have Gods approval when they banned organ transplants and were severely criticized and "persecuted" for that stance... only to reverse themselves?

People can (and do) secure persecution for themselves just for being jackasses.

Just read the bible from the KJV, NKJV or MEV. Jesus was a liberator. He wasn't opposed to persecution when it was legit.

Some didn't believe him. No one accused him of being a jackass.

169

Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness in

i just had a thought of clarity regarding the jw explanation for this doctrine.

they explain that satan challenged god regarding his right to rule.

god failed to prove his right to rule.

Perry

Universal Sovereignty

Vindication of God's Holy Name

Who has the Right to Rule

The Bible is a book of Government

Blah, blah bla

The above notions sound religious, even biblically religious. The only problem is that they are not historical Christian themes.

Christianity is about getting rid of your sin debt through the blood of Christ. God hasn't been allowing men to rule themselves because he is trying to run for office. Man is alienated from a just and holy God because they sin, a lot. They are his enemies. And, while we were God's enemies, and before we did ANYTHING for God.. Christ (God Himself) died for us (personally) not Adam.

Romans 5 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

This is the Great Watchtower deception. They keep people all knotted up chasing imaginary global rulership issues and ignoring (even rejecting) the offer of a total free ride into eternal bliss and personal adoption by the Almighty.

Once a person is adopted, legal heirs have title right to everything the Father has, for free.... the very thing JW's insist on working for.

Jesus said, "Come to me (not Jehovah), and I will give you rest".

The irony is overwhelming at times.

291

Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

by cofty in

i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

Perry

Cofty,

The study is published in the journal Human Evolution.... not a creationist source.

I post this because it is favorable toward a worldview which I believe the evidence (that I can personally test or can reasonably subscribe to supports)...unlike you.

The paper does NOT suggest that life originated all at the same time but that the age of extant species can be traced back to founder populations

A perfect fit for a Noah's ark scenario. Bravo!

1. What is your explanation for why dinosaur bones stink like rotting flesh? If they are old enough for the Rocky Mountains to have been worn down by rain water and wind and then rise again as evolutionists claim, how could they still have organic molecules decomposing... still stinking like a corpse?

2. How can carbon dating of dinosaur soft tissue consistently show a date of thousands of years?

3. How can dinosaur dna fragments last more that a few thousand years when DNA has been demonstrated to last at most a few thousand years?

These are simple smell-test type observances that even the most uneducated amongst us (such as yourself with ZERO training in the biological sciences) can understand.

What say you?

Perry

Posts by Perry

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags

Romans 3: 9 - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The bottom line is that as much as we like Jesus' teachings, we simply cannot essentially live them. God must do that for us, in us.We must believe God and then receive God. Believe and receive. OUR Works has NOTHING to do with it, "else Christ died for nothing."

The bottom line is that as much as we like Jesus' teachings, we simply cannot essentially live them. God must do that for us, in us.

We must believe God and then receive God. Believe and receive. OUR Works has NOTHING to do with it, "else Christ died for nothing."