Posts by Perry

11

A Walk in the Moonlight

by compound complex in

jw
friends

a walk in the moonlight will do me good.

i shall understand inner turmoil in a new light, that proffered by the softly suffused illumination della bella luna.

the black shadow of the walking dead, cast upon a meandering path by the gracious moon, will be my companion.. treading my way slowly, reverentially, to the frosty view above that patiently awaits me, i stop dead at land's end.

Perry

I can't wait to go camping on a full moon night soon. Building a treehouse for my boys. Hope to be done by mid September. Already picked out the tree and cleared the area.

The moon is mysteriously comforting.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

Cofty,

I think comparing ritual human sacrifice to a legally ordained death penalty for crimes is absurd.

This judge just issued the death penalty to a man who killed a police officer when he was pulled over for a traffic violation. Would you be just as willing to compare this man to your Mezo-American blood lust cartoon? I'm curious.

Criteria for imposition of the death penalty varies from state to state in the United States. There is not uniform agreement. So, if we vary among ourselves, is it surprising the God's criteria might be different than ours, especially if that agreement implicates our own guilt? Like I mentioned before, the rules for the death penalty are probably no where more widely disagreed upon than with those on death row. Not surprising. We are born on death row, in case you haven't noticed. We all die.

Moving on, Jesus was both God and son of Mary. Scripture indicates that this ONE AND ONLY human sacrifice was thought of by God the father, true. But, don't forget that Jesus, the Man had a choice too. He could have said no. "But for the joy that was set before him".... well you know the rest.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. John 10-16

Is it not better for one man to die than for an entire species to die? Especially if he had authority to take it up again?

10

Christopher Hitchens at the "Festival of Dangerous Ideas"

by Finkelstein in

hitchens has some provocative thoughts about where much of today's monotheist beliefs originated which came out of inarguable human ignorance and how potentially dangerous and redundant they are in this modren day.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwihkm126bk.

Perry

I think Christopher Hitchens has a number of "Dangerous Ideas" .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KcyG0J3dXk

13

The bread pan illustration is totally flawed

by purrpurr in

it just suddenly occured to me today.... you know the jws always say about adams sin being passed on to his descendants that its like you have a bread pan with a dent in it and that every loaf of bread will then have a dent?

well that's fine for bread, cos your using the same pan.

but that's not how genetics work?.

Perry

Bible writers are confused over this. In one place it would say 'the sins of the father will be poured out on the offspring to the third and fourth generations' and in another place it would contradict it, as given in Deut 24:16; Eze 18:20.

Not really confusing. The phraseology is different. Ezekiel 18: 20 specifically states that we are only punished for our own sins, not those of our fathers. So then, how are fathers' sins "poured out" on future generations?

Back then (and now) usually gross sin had to do with idolatry (in one form or another) and ran in families. I was a third generation JW on Dad's side and 4th generationon my Mom's side. The idolatrous sins of my fathers in worshiping a NY corporation got poured out on me. I GREATLY suffered because of their idolatry.... which later became mine.

Most here can testify that the Lack of love, robotic mechanical upbringing, & social dysfunction, led to drug, alcohol, failed marriages and a number of other self-destructive behaviors and ideologies that in turn get passed onto new generations. Multi-generational or Trans-generational Trauma is well known & studied today.

Idolatry is very hard to get rid of once ingrained in a family. It is rarely pretty or easy. It has not been pretty or easy in my personal experience.

Piper has this to say:

1. The sins of the fathers are punished in the children through becoming the sins of the children.

I the Lord...visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5; cf. Numbers 14:18)

The generations to come who experience the penalty of the fathers’ sins are those who hate God. We are not told how the fathers’ sins become the children’s sins. But what we are told is that when the father’s sins are visited on the children it is because the children are really sinful. That is the form in which the fathers’ sins are visited. Therefore, all judgment is really deserved by the person who is punished.

2. Because of God’s grace, which is finally secured by Christ, the children can confess their own sins and the sins of their fathers and be forgiven and accepted by God.

But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers...if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, then I will remember my covenant with Jacob” (Leviticus 26:40-42).

10

Christopher Hitchens at the "Festival of Dangerous Ideas"

by Finkelstein in

hitchens has some provocative thoughts about where much of today's monotheist beliefs originated which came out of inarguable human ignorance and how potentially dangerous and redundant they are in this modren day.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwihkm126bk.

Perry

Hitchens has some provocative thoughts about where much of today's monotheist beliefs originated which came out of inarguable human ignorance

And Hitchens was able to acheive a life of human ignorance all on his own as a drunk and chain smoker.

His wife said he was “obviously an alcoholic”.

"Accounts of his drinking, usually in the form of all day lunches, where one wine bottle followed the next, are the stuff of legend among his fellow writers. They invariably describe themselves as being unable to keep up with Hitch"

11

What would happen?

by Esse quam videri in

jw
friends

a thrift store down the street is run by members of a small, local christian congregation.

evangelical but not sure what religion they are affiliated with.

they have set up the store as a non-profit and have a specific use for the funds they acquire.

Perry

They probably would want to somehow be in control of the whole operation. Likely local elders would be counseled to give the funds directly to the society and they would then figure out what is in the best interests of everyone involved.... in due time of course.

13

The bread pan illustration is totally flawed

by purrpurr in

it just suddenly occured to me today.... you know the jws always say about adams sin being passed on to his descendants that its like you have a bread pan with a dent in it and that every loaf of bread will then have a dent?

well that's fine for bread, cos your using the same pan.

but that's not how genetics work?.

Perry

purrpurr, I think you are suggesting that God punishes people for something Adam did, Is that right?

If so, that is not what the bible teaches. Each of us is responsible for our own sins. Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.”

This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

Pistoff: The idea of a sacrifice by Jesus is only valid if god
is in the background demanding blood and death.

Exactly. Shocking? Hardly. This is what God has stated as the price of life from the very beginning. It is no secret. God himself provided the first animal sacrifice to cover Adam in the form of animal skins. Adams pitiful efforts to cover himself were done with fig leaves. So we see both mans efforts and what God requires for sin to be properly covered right there in the Garden of Eden.

The wages of sin is death. Like it or not, that is the Law. But notice how that the death penalty does not necessarily have to be your own. That is a little loophole with big implications.

Now, before someone cries out in outrage, claiming unfairness and brutality; consider that there are inmates on death row right now where the State Justice system is "demanding blood and death", same as God does.

Predictably, the inmates many times are in disagreement with the justice system. They see that their life still has value. They reason that they are still capable of various forms of good works etc. However, what governs their fate is not their own biased reasoning, but what the Law states.

So, while we live in societies that mirror God's justice in the requirement of blood, and we willingly give our support to such law and order, God's requirement for perfection may seem unreasonable to us, the inmates seemingly running the asylum. Like the protesting inmate on death row, our biased reasoning is not what dictates our fate. The Law is what dictates our fate. A death must occur. But whose?

Jesus knew that to accept his substitutional sacrifice a person would have to FIRST atom bomb their own Ego, Pride, and personal estimations of justice. This would create a sharp divide in how Jesus was perceived, hence his prediction here:

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

So, while the Law "is what it is"; the ultimate response of God to sin is NOT JUDGMENT, but MERCY:

But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 9:26

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:51

“…waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” Titus 2:13-14

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.” John 12:24-27

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” Luke 19:5, 9-10

“For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.” Ephesians 2:14-18

The purpose of Jesus sacrifice is abundantly clear.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

venus,

I looked up the scriptures you site and I don't see where you are coming from. . My bible reads in many places where Jesus predicted his own death.

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. - Jesus

From the very beginning, Jesus was introduced as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". Everybody knew what function the passover lamb provided. The message was clear. And, still is. Paul's writings are replete with this teaching of substitution "for us", not Adam..

Combatting heresy from almost the beginning, the author of the Letter to Diognetus written around 130 AD makes these declarations after affirming man's inability to justify himself :

But [God] was patient, he bore with us, and out of pity for us took our sins upon himself. He gave up his own Son as a ransom for us, [NOT ADAM] the holy one for the lawless, the innocent one for the wicked, the righteous one for the unrighteous, the imperishable one for the perishable, the immortal one for the mortal. (9.2).

Undoubtedly, the author views the work of Christ on the cross as an exchange, a ransom, a swapping, of the righteous for the unrighteous, that we might be saved. And he says plainly that Christ “took our sins upon himself.” He stood in our place and bore God’s wrath for us individually, BECAUSE THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. But, the GIFT God gives is everlasting life.

God’s response to our sin, though deserving of death, is not to bring judgment but to show mercy. Now that God has CLEARLY shown what his response to OUR sin is; it is now our turn to show what our response to him is.

In their efforts to deceive (either knowingly or unwittingly) this is why is was so critical for the WT to keep harping on their teaching that Jesus died and ransomed Adam because it hid the fact that Jesus substituted his death for ours .... his righteousness for our unrighteousness..... and his inheritance for our inheritance.

For the receiver, Jesus offers a PERSONAL RANSOM. Not a corporate one like the WT teaches.

This is why so many Christians that we met at the doors zeored in on the subject of whether or not Jesus was our PERSONAL SAVIOR. The reason is because that is the ONLY kind of savior he his. To reject that is to reject him.

62

Is There Life After Death

by Brokeback Watchtower in

i think this is a well developed discussion, of ian stevenson's work in investigating people's past lives claims.

it's a little long.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0attm9hgcdw.

Perry

There is death after death, but you are still conscious.