Posts by Perry

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

I don't know about you but I feel no need for anyone's death to help me get this 'sin' out of my system.

I understand where you are coming from. But, keep in mind that running a business, a country or a human life based solely upon feelings is a recipe for utter disaster. Thankfully, much of reality that we experience is not determined by feelings. Our roadways are not governed feelings, our appointed judges do not judge based strictly on feelings. Feelings are a wonderful servant, but a cruel master.

I once watched a young man very up close and personal who was guilty of a crime that carried a maximum penalty of 25 years get sentenced. Prior to sentencing, in the holding area reserved for prisoners, he was utterly defiant, pacing and muttering over and over, "They gonna have to GIVE me my time, I aint takin nuttin".

His court-appointed attorney had negotiated a deal of only 7 years with the prosecutor. All he had to do was sign the paper-work. He was a young man with his whole life ahead of him. I kept watching him pace in the holding cell, muttering his defiance. His mouth was constantly moving.

Finally, his name was called to go before the judge, and he left. In only a few minutes he returned to the holding area for the prisoners. He was withdrawn. His pacing had stopped. He made for the nearest wall/bench and plopped himself down with his knees up near his chin like a child. Someone asked him if if got the 25, he nodded yes, he didn't speak.

The Law (and inevitable judgment) had finally stopped his mouth and his feelings from dominating him.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

Perry, in context I was thinking of Adamic sin: the inborn, inherited imperfection-- cured some think, by the sacrificial death of the "second Adam".

I understand. But, really what difference does it make for the discussion at hand? It's still your sin, regardless of where you acquired it. Oh, we could have arguments over nature vs. nurture; rich vs. poor; believer vs. non-beliver etc. But, the reality is that unless you are a sociopath, you will do things that violate YOUR OWN personal standard, as well as standards set by the local, state and federal governments, not to even mention God's laws.

So, are we to settle for a hit and miss sort of justice that allows the sneaky, discreet and otherwise untouchable among us to avoid judgment? What kind of justice is that? It is no kind of justice AT ALL I tell you and God will have none of it.

Laws serve a very important purpose in the universe. In human sociology, according to God the primary purpose of the Law is to stop the mouth. The mouth is full of venomous biased poison that is full of self interest and self justification. Almost all of it bovine manure, before a standard plumed straight.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The effect that the Law has on the mouth and the ensuing guilt before a righteous judge is STILL not the final purpose. The final purpose of the mute mouth and the guilty conscience is to prepare the soul for mercy, goodness, grace & love. These things simply cannot be received while the mouth is moving in expressions of self-justification and while the conscience is bogged down in excuses.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. - Romans 11:32

36

Anybody here still believe in the bible?

by Mel Morris in

jw
friends

i'm a current bible student of jw's looking to chat with someone about biblical doctrine.

i'm not interested in talking with an apostate or a fader, i'm just a person looking for answers and wondered if there are any neutral voices in this forum who have good insights into the bible.

i currently talk with a couple of jw's on a personal level from my congregation and they are knowledgeable to a certain extent, but i dare not ask them certain questions because, as you know, the congregation has a culture of fear that impacts trust and openness, especially concerning biblical doctrine or the societies teachings.

Perry

Hi Mel! Welcome.

I recommend you do your own research.

Atheists have actually helped me greatly to realize the amazing coherency of the bible, researching their objections.. I don't know where I'd be without them. So, I guess I'm saying to not be too quick to overlook "apostates". They provide a valuable function for believers, as they also did in the first few centuries after Christ, as they provoked an avalanche of writings by the students of the apostles. (Early Church Fathers)

Most, but not all posters on this site are atheist. I have never found an objection that I didn't also find a satisfying answer.

Here are the best Christian defense sites that I have found after 17 years of interaction on this forum.

Got Questions

Christian Think Tank

CARM

Happy Trails!

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

Perry you are imagining that the words of the Bible are actually true and meaningful!

Hi Half Bananna,

The initial post assumes that, by citing scripture, hence the possible contradiction that was put forth in the OP.

Sin has no meaning for most people today and that is a good and liberating advance.

Until you face a judge of course.

Sin:

... commit an offense, transgress, do wrong, commit a crime, break the law, go astray;

google.com

19

Lengthy letter re: End Time Events / read ONLY if you still believe in God.

by mother Teresa in

shalom,.

my mom's family is mostly jws.

during her second marriage, i attended the weekly meeting and sunday meetings (by my own choice) with a family in the very small town we lived, since my mom didn’t attend.

Perry

Mother Teresa,

Welcome! I wouldn't worry too much about the Man of Lawlesslessness, Writer with the Secretary's Inkhorn, following the Sabbath or dietary restrictions in the OT..... unless you just want to. Maybe just try to relax?

10

Guidelines For Proper Uses For Sold Kingdom Halls

by Charles Gillette in

jw
friends

how does the watchtower dispose of kingdom halls no longer usable because of poor attendance and or merging with another kingdom hall.the rank and file contributed lots of money to keep it active.. then they tell us their not using it anymore.where does the money for that hall go.

and what they do with the money they get for the sale of that property.

they certainly don't give the rank and file anything.. and what use will the new owners use it for.

Perry

I guess people still go there to get marked.

11

A Walk in the Moonlight

by compound complex in

jw
friends

a walk in the moonlight will do me good.

i shall understand inner turmoil in a new light, that proffered by the softly suffused illumination della bella luna.

the black shadow of the walking dead, cast upon a meandering path by the gracious moon, will be my companion.. treading my way slowly, reverentially, to the frosty view above that patiently awaits me, i stop dead at land's end.

Perry

I can't wait to go camping on a full moon night soon. Building a treehouse for my boys. Hope to be done by mid September. Already picked out the tree and cleared the area.

The moon is mysteriously comforting.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

Cofty,

I think comparing ritual human sacrifice to a legally ordained death penalty for crimes is absurd.

This judge just issued the death penalty to a man who killed a police officer when he was pulled over for a traffic violation. Would you be just as willing to compare this man to your Mezo-American blood lust cartoon? I'm curious.

Criteria for imposition of the death penalty varies from state to state in the United States. There is not uniform agreement. So, if we vary among ourselves, is it surprising the God's criteria might be different than ours, especially if that agreement implicates our own guilt? Like I mentioned before, the rules for the death penalty are probably no where more widely disagreed upon than with those on death row. Not surprising. We are born on death row, in case you haven't noticed. We all die.

Moving on, Jesus was both God and son of Mary. Scripture indicates that this ONE AND ONLY human sacrifice was thought of by God the father, true. But, don't forget that Jesus, the Man had a choice too. He could have said no. "But for the joy that was set before him".... well you know the rest.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. John 10-16

Is it not better for one man to die than for an entire species to die? Especially if he had authority to take it up again?

10

Christopher Hitchens at the "Festival of Dangerous Ideas"

by Finkelstein in

hitchens has some provocative thoughts about where much of today's monotheist beliefs originated which came out of inarguable human ignorance and how potentially dangerous and redundant they are in this modren day.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwihkm126bk.

Perry

I think Christopher Hitchens has a number of "Dangerous Ideas" .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KcyG0J3dXk

13

The bread pan illustration is totally flawed

by purrpurr in

it just suddenly occured to me today.... you know the jws always say about adams sin being passed on to his descendants that its like you have a bread pan with a dent in it and that every loaf of bread will then have a dent?

well that's fine for bread, cos your using the same pan.

but that's not how genetics work?.

Perry

Bible writers are confused over this. In one place it would say 'the sins of the father will be poured out on the offspring to the third and fourth generations' and in another place it would contradict it, as given in Deut 24:16; Eze 18:20.

Not really confusing. The phraseology is different. Ezekiel 18: 20 specifically states that we are only punished for our own sins, not those of our fathers. So then, how are fathers' sins "poured out" on future generations?

Back then (and now) usually gross sin had to do with idolatry (in one form or another) and ran in families. I was a third generation JW on Dad's side and 4th generationon my Mom's side. The idolatrous sins of my fathers in worshiping a NY corporation got poured out on me. I GREATLY suffered because of their idolatry.... which later became mine.

Most here can testify that the Lack of love, robotic mechanical upbringing, & social dysfunction, led to drug, alcohol, failed marriages and a number of other self-destructive behaviors and ideologies that in turn get passed onto new generations. Multi-generational or Trans-generational Trauma is well known & studied today.

Idolatry is very hard to get rid of once ingrained in a family. It is rarely pretty or easy. It has not been pretty or easy in my personal experience.

Piper has this to say:

1. The sins of the fathers are punished in the children through becoming the sins of the children.

I the Lord...visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5; cf. Numbers 14:18)

The generations to come who experience the penalty of the fathers’ sins are those who hate God. We are not told how the fathers’ sins become the children’s sins. But what we are told is that when the father’s sins are visited on the children it is because the children are really sinful. That is the form in which the fathers’ sins are visited. Therefore, all judgment is really deserved by the person who is punished.

2. Because of God’s grace, which is finally secured by Christ, the children can confess their own sins and the sins of their fathers and be forgiven and accepted by God.

But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers...if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, then I will remember my covenant with Jacob” (Leviticus 26:40-42).