Posts by Perry

51

Without god what is the basis of morality?

by OneEyedJoe in

i'm sure most here who've questioned or left behind their belief in god have encountered this question - without god, what basis can there be for morality?

my exwife, when i admitted that i was an atheist, once asked me "if you don't believe in god, what's to stop you from going out and raping and murdering?

" previously, whenever i got this objection, i would tend to turn it around on the other person with a response along the lines of "if fear of god is the only thing that stops you from murdering, that makes me rather nervous to be around you.

Perry

Without God, the basis for morality is subjective. The idea that morality can be deduced by trial and error on what makes a society successful or peaceful is itself also subjective, since "success" itself connotes subjective meaning.

Some cultures have institutional unforgiveness taught and practiced as a norm, and have done so for a VERY long time. They believe that only those that are deserving should be forgiven. Of course if a person deserves to be forgiven then he has earned it, and cannot really qualify for forgiveness.

In Western culture, because of our Christian heritage we put a premium on forgiveness & grace whenever possible. As a Christian, I can state that because I have been forgiven, I am under obligation to do the same. My morality is rooted in God.

Sometimes forgiveness is not possible, true. But the ethic is there looking for the opportunity. The atheist may do the exact same thing, but for different reasons. And, since he doesn't exist for God, he might just as easily change his mind as his rationale changes.

And what do you do when a group of people believe they can only experience peace, when for example they see you and your family marginalized, demoted, or exterminated ? The morality-derived- from-peace model goes out the window, that's what happens. Because, whose peace are we talking about; yours or theirs?

51

Without god what is the basis of morality?

by OneEyedJoe in

i'm sure most here who've questioned or left behind their belief in god have encountered this question - without god, what basis can there be for morality?

my exwife, when i admitted that i was an atheist, once asked me "if you don't believe in god, what's to stop you from going out and raping and murdering?

" previously, whenever i got this objection, i would tend to turn it around on the other person with a response along the lines of "if fear of god is the only thing that stops you from murdering, that makes me rather nervous to be around you.

Perry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gVpUxT-9H4

22

If the Borg is a Death Star, what is it's weakest spot?

by Darth FayDehr in

.

Perry

Once local elders get successfully sued, the whole thing shuts down real fast. That's why they are liquidating assets, doing online bible studies and generally back pedaling. Just a matter of time. Stay tuned.

7

Aggressive JWs in my area

by Alex Bogdanov in

jw
friends

i was called an "ugly person" by a jw because of my book.

this sister said that she doesn't mind me not being a jw but she hates me because i trashed jws in my book.

i told her that i didn't trash it i just wrote what i have learned about the org in 15 years.

Perry

I have looked at your mug shot. After close scrutiny and conferring with my wife, I would like to affirm that you are not an ugly person.

There. That settles it.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

The way to look at is, NOT that the death itself forgives sin, only God can do that. He is the final authority, whose law was broken.

Why Not says:

Jesus death forgives sins yet the Bible also says our death forgives our sins. So, which is it?

Myeleine says it best above:

Does our death ever cancel our sin debt? No. We are not perfect nor was our death a sacrifice.

Our death cannot be a sacrifice since we are going to die anyway. It would be like giving you a car as a gift after a mechanic has just told me that the engine block is cracked and it will completely die within 1000 miles. It is no value to the giver and is actually an offence to the receiver.

The WT promoted the heresy of a person being able to atone for oneself through a twisting of a scripture in Romans Chapter 6

KJV:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

When a person accepts God's offer of pardon he is freed from the domination of sin in this life because he has a new spirit. Jesus spoke of this condition as being "born again".

But, the WT bible states that a person who has died is acquitted of sin. Not only is this a spiritual death, and as such does not apply the way the WT uses it as self-atonement, it is not an acquittal at all... but a freedom from sin. At first the impetus to sin is totally removed from the spirit when it is renewed at the moment a person trusts Jesus alone (without or apart from religion); Later, at the resurrection, the body is glorified and has no impetus to sin.

But no where does the NT claim that a person can atone for their own sin..."else Christ died for nothing.".

If a person does not accept Jesus sacrifice death as a substitute for their own by faith, they will have no justification for life at Judgement Day after they die.

What we do with Jesus in this life determines where we will spend eternity since the soul will be conscious for eternity. The eternal soul (mind) is a tremendous gift God has given us. But, it has the potential to be our greatest nightmare since it cannot be shut down at will.

19

Lies! Since the Watchtower knows how to lie, they can give expert advice on it.

by days of future passed in

study article for october: speaking the truth.

the article is about lying, but the wt is all about lying.

i guess they are concerned with their followers lying to them!.

Perry

Watchtower failed predictions vs. fulfilled bible prophecy

Now that would be a WT study that I'd attend!

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

dogmatic religious belief has killed millions

Half Bananna,

Ever heard of Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin ? They claimed to be atheists, without God, and killed 100 Million OF THEIR OWN people. Of course people who believe in God like Hitler supposedly did can be deluded murderers as well. But, on the whole, I believe that acknowledging that God will judge us after we die can have a very sobering effect on people.

This was the central message to the gentile world that the resurrected, very much alive Jesus commanded to be preached in Acts 10: 39-43

This is the basis of Christianity: in fulfilment of hundreds of prophecies, a man cam back from the dead and said he'd judge everyone after they die.

Today, the whole world counts time by this man and the resurrection is the best explanation of the facts.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

I don't know about you but I feel no need for anyone's death to help me get this 'sin' out of my system.

I understand where you are coming from. But, keep in mind that running a business, a country or a human life based solely upon feelings is a recipe for utter disaster. Thankfully, much of reality that we experience is not determined by feelings. Our roadways are not governed feelings, our appointed judges do not judge based strictly on feelings. Feelings are a wonderful servant, but a cruel master.

I once watched a young man very up close and personal who was guilty of a crime that carried a maximum penalty of 25 years get sentenced. Prior to sentencing, in the holding area reserved for prisoners, he was utterly defiant, pacing and muttering over and over, "They gonna have to GIVE me my time, I aint takin nuttin".

His court-appointed attorney had negotiated a deal of only 7 years with the prosecutor. All he had to do was sign the paper-work. He was a young man with his whole life ahead of him. I kept watching him pace in the holding cell, muttering his defiance. His mouth was constantly moving.

Finally, his name was called to go before the judge, and he left. In only a few minutes he returned to the holding area for the prisoners. He was withdrawn. His pacing had stopped. He made for the nearest wall/bench and plopped himself down with his knees up near his chin like a child. Someone asked him if if got the 25, he nodded yes, he didn't speak.

The Law (and inevitable judgment) had finally stopped his mouth and his feelings from dominating him.

33

Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot in

jeremiah 7:31 says, "they have built the high places of toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that i had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’".

according to this scripture it's unthinkable for jehovah to be pleased with child sacrifices.

but yet he sent his son to be killed as a sacrifice for all?.

Perry

Perry, in context I was thinking of Adamic sin: the inborn, inherited imperfection-- cured some think, by the sacrificial death of the "second Adam".

I understand. But, really what difference does it make for the discussion at hand? It's still your sin, regardless of where you acquired it. Oh, we could have arguments over nature vs. nurture; rich vs. poor; believer vs. non-beliver etc. But, the reality is that unless you are a sociopath, you will do things that violate YOUR OWN personal standard, as well as standards set by the local, state and federal governments, not to even mention God's laws.

So, are we to settle for a hit and miss sort of justice that allows the sneaky, discreet and otherwise untouchable among us to avoid judgment? What kind of justice is that? It is no kind of justice AT ALL I tell you and God will have none of it.

Laws serve a very important purpose in the universe. In human sociology, according to God the primary purpose of the Law is to stop the mouth. The mouth is full of venomous biased poison that is full of self interest and self justification. Almost all of it bovine manure, before a standard plumed straight.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The effect that the Law has on the mouth and the ensuing guilt before a righteous judge is STILL not the final purpose. The final purpose of the mute mouth and the guilty conscience is to prepare the soul for mercy, goodness, grace & love. These things simply cannot be received while the mouth is moving in expressions of self-justification and while the conscience is bogged down in excuses.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. - Romans 11:32

36

Anybody here still believe in the bible?

by Mel Morris in

jw
friends

i'm a current bible student of jw's looking to chat with someone about biblical doctrine.

i'm not interested in talking with an apostate or a fader, i'm just a person looking for answers and wondered if there are any neutral voices in this forum who have good insights into the bible.

i currently talk with a couple of jw's on a personal level from my congregation and they are knowledgeable to a certain extent, but i dare not ask them certain questions because, as you know, the congregation has a culture of fear that impacts trust and openness, especially concerning biblical doctrine or the societies teachings.

Perry

Hi Mel! Welcome.

I recommend you do your own research.

Atheists have actually helped me greatly to realize the amazing coherency of the bible, researching their objections.. I don't know where I'd be without them. So, I guess I'm saying to not be too quick to overlook "apostates". They provide a valuable function for believers, as they also did in the first few centuries after Christ, as they provoked an avalanche of writings by the students of the apostles. (Early Church Fathers)

Most, but not all posters on this site are atheist. I have never found an objection that I didn't also find a satisfying answer.

Here are the best Christian defense sites that I have found after 17 years of interaction on this forum.

Got Questions

Christian Think Tank

CARM

Happy Trails!