Village Idiot:
I have found the following websites to generally have sound biblical answers to a lot of questions.
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This thread is mostly about what Jesus saves us from, contrasting a WT view with an historical Christian view.
Posts by Perry
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43Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Perry
Coded Logic,
Wow, lots of good questions. I'm afraid I don't have ALL the answers. This is what I believe is accurate:
Can you please explain what you mean by "justify giving life to humans"?
To circumvent the originally stated death penalty. First of all, I just want to say that neither me or anyone else makes the rules, God does. God is the one who says the wages of sin is DEATH. The biblical definition of death is the separation of the body from the soul. (see resurrection of the son of the widow of Zerapath in 1984 edition of NWT) Superimposing a naturalistic definition on a biblical term first mentioned by God himself in the garden of eden is inappropriate...just sayin'.
At any rate all are born to sin since Adam. We have a sin nature.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive - 1 Cor. 15: 22
Christ substitutes for the believer .... his death for theirs; if they want it.
And wouldn't any such a justification be necessary before our birth?
I'm not sure see your point. I don't think there is a moral imperative for God to justify anyone at anytime.
Also, what do you mean by "born dead in Adam"? Is this a reference to sin?
Yes
If it is a reference to sin, why aren't those who believe in Jesus now free from sin?
But they are! Man was constructed in the image of God a tri-partite being. We are spirit, soul and body. All are YOU, separately and collectively. Sometimes the bible speaks of the body as you, sometimes the soul as you, sometimes the spirit as you.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved .... - 1Thess. 5: 23
Each exerts an influence on your consciousness. Originally, the spirit of man led his consciousness. That died and his lower animal nature took the lead.
We still are aware of morality and have very high aspirations,just not the means to get there perfectly. In the Fall of Adam all three parts were corrupted, body, soul and spirit.
When a new believer asks Jesus into their heart to live there forever, a new spirit is given that believer... an incorruptible one or seed.
It is still YOU, but a perfected You... the spirit you. This is the only part God can interact with the believer on
because the flesh and soul are still unperfected.... the redemption of your body comes later.
With this understanding difficult verses come to life:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3: 9
vs.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1: 8
The first verse is speaking of the new spirit a believer receives when he is born again into the family of God.
The second verse is speaking of the still unredeemed bodies of believer and unbeliever alike. Both are "YOU".
And if this contract justifies humans having life, then why do Christians still die?
Only our spirits can be redeemed at this time. We are still waiting on the glorification of the body.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Roman : 23
Again, I don't claim to have all the answers. This is what I've learned since leaving the WT. I believe my responses represent mainstream Christian thought and sound historical Christian doctrine.
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Perry
Cofty,
I once briefly had the opportunity to assist in the criminal justice system. I saw with my own eyes a young black man who was offered 7 years for his crime as part of a deal his attorney worked out. He had a court appointed lawyer that cost him nothing. He would have paroled in only 2.3 years. He was very vocal, loud, arrogant and walked with a proud swagger.
He kept pacing & repeating : "I aint takin' nutin from dem. They gonna have to GIVE me my time.....I aint taking nutin."
He didn't want to be agreeable or make a deal in any way. He never once claimed he was innocent. He was angry at having to be accountable to JUSTICE, and outraged at the efforts of his attorney.
Given the stats of young black men from the ghetto, I imagine his mother babied him, let him do what he wanted and his father was never around to discipline him and teach him how to succeed. As a result, he was an emotional basket case.
The time came a couple hours later for him to face the judge WITHOUT the deal his attorney had worked out. He came back in only about ten minutes. He plopped himself down like a spoiled brat who was used to getting his way. He looked like a spoiled child trapped in a man's body, .... he just sat silently this time. I asked what the judge gave him. He said 22 years with a tear in his eye. I'll never forget that encounter.
God pleads with us to accept his Son as our Mediator. And after that, to be OK with accepting a permanently downloaded spirit program that will empower us to Love God and Love our Neighbor as ourselves. I found myself TOTALLY unable to do that on my own.
I was 40 years old, with failed marriages under my belt, a son that wanted nothing to do with me and a borderline addiction to alcohol when I accepted Jesus' offer of pardon. I was constantly mad at the Watchtower, harbored resentment, and couldn't move on.
After getting born again, I SLOWLY learned to trust and love God. Much damage to the ultimate authority figure had to be undone, I'm still dealing with some of that after 11 years. But that didn't stop the victories from coming my way by making peace with God.
I remarried (happily for 11 yrs. now), have two more beautiful sons, satisfying work, and I personally baptized all three sons last Spring. My oldest has accepted Christ at age 30. These are all victories in THIS life that are a direct result of making peace with God through the blood covenant. Something that was previously denied to me by the WT.
Many people are trapped in their hurt feelings from abuses by the WT and others. Our families reject us not because of us, but primarily because the WT has them believing that they need to reject us so that they can live forever. It is nothing personal, they just want to live. Can you blame them?
This is why my personal approach to JW's involves the Salvation issue. This is an easy subject to address with them, they are unprepared and wide open on this. Once they abandon the WT method of salvation, yours and mine relationship WILL BE RESTORED, regardless of where they move on to from there.
It is the SALVATION issue that binds all our former family members from enjoying companionship with us.
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Perry
Coded Logic: Good Questions
I was hoping you could clarify a few things for me. I apologise if my questions seem really basic but there's such a wide variety of beliefs within Christianity it's hard to know the position of anyone Christian on any given topic.
You'll find the basis for salvation to be rather consistent among a wide variety of Christians, the blood covenant or New Covenant. Covenant means contract. The contract is a legal instrument used to justify giving life to humans since we are all born dead in Adam. The things that will nullify this contract with God are things like adding to the contract or taking away from it. Catholics add Mary as a co-mediator and add works. This nullifies the contract.
The Watchtower denies the contract altogether for its members. Mormons add their church as a necessary component to the agreement.... etc. Other doctrines are peripheral and it is not critical to get perfect in order to enjoy a contract with God.
In reality, there are only two names on every accepted contract. The name of the believer and the name of Jesus. "there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved. ". (Jesus plus anything, like another mediator or your church will not be accepted; just as your name plus your works or church affiliation will not be accepted for example on your end).
You spoke about John 3:18 and belief. Do you believe that "belief" is the metric via which people are saved or condemned? If so, what constitutes belief?
Jesus was once asked point blank "what was the work of God" Jesus answered "to believe" him. When Jesus said for us to do something in Mt. 26: 27, 28 do we believe him? Or do we believe another who says he wasn't talking to you?. Whom we believe determines if we are condemened or not.... not our works. Our works only serve as an outward indication of our true beliefs; as James puts it...faith without works is dead. But the scripture is also true which states "that by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified"
This is fitting because it was unbelief that sold Adam and Eve and their offspring into slavery to sin and death. Eve CHOSE not to believe God a split second before she sinned and her spirit died instantly and her body eventually.
Likewise, when we are given a new spirit and eternal life NOW, we choose to believe Jesus and his blood atonement just prior to making a confession of faith in Jesus ALONE.
Numerous scriptures support this. One that comes to mind is:
John 5: 24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. -KJV
Notice the present tense. As a side note: "condemned" is a better word choice than "judged" in this scripture. As I pointed out in the opening post, all are judged as Hebrews 9:27 states. But, only unbelievers are condemned.
I recently gave an hour talk with a good bit on this topic here.
Also, do you think being condemned means hell (like the rich man being burned in Jesus parable about Lazarus)? Or does it mean something else?
It is a good bible practice to take the plain sense. Jesus named names of real characters in this account. In teaching parables, Jesus does not name his characters. It was always generic like ... "there was a man" for example.
Jesus spoke a number of times about judgment and separation from God, whether the final destination is "outer darkness" ," hades", "gehenna", or the "lake of fire" at the Great White Throne judgment. A person can make up their own mind as to whether some or all of these are literal or figurative. It makes no real difference, they are all really bad.
Imagine the best of these scenarios of being conscious in cold outer darkness experiencing the absence of all that can be called good for eternity. Jesus said their was no one good but God, him being the personification of GOOD. When we reject Jesus' offer for a pardon of our sins, we are rejecting God and all that can be called good.... heat, sunshine, warmth, love, friendship, wonder, education, family, etc.
By means of Jesus blood, God has empowered man to choose his own destiny instead of not having any choice in the matter. God gives us what we want in the end. He can do no other.
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Perry
Yes "perish" would be better since the Greek text literally says it. I showed this to a JW and his answer was "well we don't speak Greek, we're talking about English"
Yogosans,
I agree.
The KJV has (IMO) the best (English) word choice for distilling doctrine. In this case though, you can still use their own bible and prove that CHRIST DOES NOT SAVE US FROM BEING DESTROYED AT ARMAGEDDON (per se) as I showed above.
However, I think they must teach this so as to provide AT LEAST SOMETHING for Jesus to save the average JW from since they cut off their members from the sin-atoning value of the New Covenant.
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43
Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article
by Perry ini just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .
they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.
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Perry
I just skimmed the titled article on JW.org and once again the Watchtower is misdirecting:
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/
They try and make the OLD case that Jesus saves us from being destroyed at Armageddon. In support, they quote their version of John 3: 16 which uses the word "destroyed" to promote their doctrine of soul annihilation:
“God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed [perish] but have everlasting life.”—John 3:16.
vs. 18 Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged [condemned]. Whoever does not exercise faith [believe] has been judged [condemned] already, because he has not exercised faith [believed] in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. - NWT
A better word in vs. 16 would be perish instead of destroyed since the soul/spirit is eternal, made in the image of God. (see dead souls talking in Rev. 6:9)
A better word for judged would be condemned in vs. 18 since believers will also be judged, just not condemned. (Believers are judged at the "Bema seat", aka The Judgement Seat of Christ. Salvation is not on the table here at this judgment see 1 Cor. 3:15. Unbelievers are Judged at the Great White Throne where salvation is the issue)
However aside from all this, vs. 18 makes it clear exactly what Jesus saves us from. And, it is not from being destroyed at Armageddon. Jesus saves us from being officially condemned at judgment after we die.
Vs. 18 also makes it clear that we are born into a state of condemnation because we are "condemned already". Works has NOTHING to do with any of this. Also vs. 18 reveals that the object of faith is the name of Jesus not Jehovah.
Jesus asked for this message to be preached in Acts 1o: 42
"he [the resurrected Jesus] ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. - NWT
So, why doesn't the Watchtower give its members the whole picture? Simple, they would have to abandon their doctrine of the 144K as being the lone recipients of being declared righteous by the blood of Jesus and the sole channel of communication of God for mankind.it is reserved for men to die once...but after this to receive a judgment - Hebrews 9: 27 (NWT)
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How To Witness to Jehovah's Witnesses Video
by Perry ini recently shared my views on how to witness to jehovah's witnesses to a local congregation.
the video link is also below:.
maybe this will help some reach out to loved ones that are still members.. .
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Perry
I know the delivery was slow. There is a reason for that. I imagined that my JW parents were sitting on the front row who are in their 80's the whole time. I know the delivery wont appeal to certain people. It is not meant to appeal to everyone.
This talk is definitely not meant to give to JW's as a DVD either. Everybody knows that once the JW viewer knows I am a former member, they would never watch it anyway. Don't waste your time. Even many ex-jws are usually too hurt and beat up from having lost loved ones to have a calm logical conversation on this.... a least for a good long while, maybe never for some.
At any rate, I have found that a lot of Christians are very interested in how to talk to JW's. The pastoral staff told me that this service was the most highly requested DVD of a service they ever had. That really surprised me since we get guest speakers from ministries all over the world.
I am training Christians to overcome several lies/misconceptions when they speak to JW's:
1. Jesus is their Mediator
JW's will almost always initially claim this, whether they know its true or not. Spending a little time on this is VERY helpful. Even if you don't have a Watchtower quote proving that Jesus is not their mediator, you can get there just by reasoning from THEIR bible alone. Here's how:
Hebrews 12: 24 - ...and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant NWT
Which brings us to the 2nd lie/misconception that JW's will tell you
2. They are part of the New Covenant
Most JW's will tell you they are part of the New Covenant hoping that you don't know about them rejecting the NC at the Lord's Supper service. Once you question them on this they will admit that the NC is not for them personally. The problem then becomes apparent after you read Matthew 26: 27,27 which clearly states the PURPOSE of the NC is for forgiveness of sins. If they are not part of the NC, then how are their sins forgiven?
3. They will grow to perfection in the Millennium Reign
Some may claim this as their hope. However at least two scriptures prove the impossibility of this:
a. “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. - Rev. 7:14 (NWT)
There is no need for tribulation survivors to "grow to perfection" as the Watchtower teaches because the tribulation survivors are already declared righteous as indicated by their white robes. They were white because they ALSO are part of the NC because they were washed in the blood covenant of the lamb.
b. Gal 2:16...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Just in case anyone wants to wiggle out of Rev. 7: 14, they can be reminded of the impossibility of "growing to perfection" because God says he rejects any such notion in Gal 2: 16.
I have already made plans to talk at two other churches. Perhaps one of these Christians will speak to one of your family members who are still in and it will start their "wake-up process" so that your relationship can one day be restored.
That is my hope and prayer.
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How To Witness to Jehovah's Witnesses Video
by Perry ini recently shared my views on how to witness to jehovah's witnesses to a local congregation.
the video link is also below:.
maybe this will help some reach out to loved ones that are still members.. .
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Perry
The purpose of my talk was to demonstrate just how easy it is to show a JW, using their own bible, that they really have no idea how their sins are forgiven. This is significant.
I can say everything that I want to say to a JW in less than 5 minutes. On dozens of occasions, I have achieved the "deer in the headlights" look every time using the method that my wife and I demonstrated. I wish that someone would have cared enough for me while I was a witness to take a couple minutes to confront me about the fact that there is no forgiveness of sins in the Watchtower system. I would have also liked to have been confronted on the unbiblical belief that we get a clean slate at death.
My approach explains why we frequently heard the charge that JW's don't believe in Jesus. Of course we all thought that was ridiculous back when were all active JW's. What Christians were really trying to say was that JW's don't believe Jesus. There is a difference. We believed Jesus lived. We just didn't believe he was talking to us.
I have a local elder on video tape admitting that if Jesus was not his mediator that he was in the wrong religion!
I'd call that a victory.
Hopefully he went and did some research after that.
The one scripture I didn't highlight that I wished I had was Gal 2:16
...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
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How To Witness to Jehovah's Witnesses Video
by Perry ini recently shared my views on how to witness to jehovah's witnesses to a local congregation.
the video link is also below:.
maybe this will help some reach out to loved ones that are still members.. .
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Perry
I recently shared my views on how to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses to a local congregation. The video link is also below:
Maybe this will help some reach out to loved ones that are still members.
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Freedom of Religion for All or Few?
by blondie inhttp://www.cato.org/blog/religious-persecution-first-freedom-remains-under-global-siege .
march 19, 2015 10:05amreligious persecution: first freedom remains under global siege.
by doug bandow americans take religious liberty for granted.
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Perry
Interesting data.
Man's natural bent is hostility toward God:
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, - Romans 8: 7