I think that Gary Habermas does a good job in distilling the things that scholars agree on, from the most liberal "near atheist" like Bart Erhman to modern conservative ones. He a master of connecting the dots using just the things that are agreed upon.
Posts by Perry
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47Is the Bible God's word? Help please.....
by Freeandclear inso real quick, i know this comes up now and then and i've looked over some of the posts from the past but here's the thing.. when i was a jw i drank all the cool aid, i was 100% and so i have all my own arguments (from the jw's) for why the bible is inspired.
i no longer believe this but i'd really like to read something that is pretty much 100% academic on this subject.
i want to read what scholars have to say about the authenticity of the bible and it's claim at being the inspired word of god.
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47
Is the Bible God's word? Help please.....
by Freeandclear inso real quick, i know this comes up now and then and i've looked over some of the posts from the past but here's the thing.. when i was a jw i drank all the cool aid, i was 100% and so i have all my own arguments (from the jw's) for why the bible is inspired.
i no longer believe this but i'd really like to read something that is pretty much 100% academic on this subject.
i want to read what scholars have to say about the authenticity of the bible and it's claim at being the inspired word of god.
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Perry
JWS writes:
Only problem is everybody solves those things differently.
And you are reiterating my point. It is not my opinion that is important, but Gods. The bible usually answers or interprets itself in a pretty straight forward manor, like it does on the issue of Abraham's "only" son.
On the one hand they will tell you trust in God so that he can work his plan. But on the other you'll say things like "I'm praying for a job, or a spouse, or children" and it never happens. And they will tell you, well it won't happen just by praying. God will help you in your efforts. But you have to do something. Here, Abraham did something and you treat him as if he was being unfaithful.
Excellent points. I would just like to add that the bible reveals that we are born enemies of God. While still in our hostility toward him, Christ died for us, in our place, becoming sin for us, receiving our due punishment. I am unsure of the results of a person who places their primary trust in a organization, themselves, men, ideologies etc. & who then pray for certain things.
The bible is much more clear about the dynamic relationship God has with those he calls "sons". I was raised as a 4th generation Jehovah's Witness. I prayed for many, many things and experienced a tremendous amount of sheer wasted time because the primary object of my faith was the Watchtower and not God. Upon realizing this, it of course was quite a shock to me because I was pretty satisfied with my religious efforts to please God. After experiencing a life as a born again Christian for the past 10 year, I can compare the two. My opinion is that most any attempts to rely on God while venerating anyone or anything in his place is nearly a complete waste of time.
My advice is to make friends with God first, before seeking these other things. Then, make sure you understand what God has actually said as opposed to what someone has repeated what God has said, before embarking on a course of pursuit.
For instance, your characterization of Abraham in your quote above makes it look like Abraham & Sarah were simply avoiding laziness and were just trying to work in harmony with God and wasn't being unfaithful at all. However, when you look at exactly what God said, the willful disobedience becomes clear.
And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
God made it clear that Sarah would bear a son to Abraham. And through him would come kings and nations. And, that is just precisely what happened, in spite of their lapse in faith and efforts to make things happen by other means.
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Is the Bible God's word? Help please.....
by Freeandclear inso real quick, i know this comes up now and then and i've looked over some of the posts from the past but here's the thing.. when i was a jw i drank all the cool aid, i was 100% and so i have all my own arguments (from the jw's) for why the bible is inspired.
i no longer believe this but i'd really like to read something that is pretty much 100% academic on this subject.
i want to read what scholars have to say about the authenticity of the bible and it's claim at being the inspired word of god.
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Perry
Thanks for bringing that up JWS. Some of the most powerful messages in the bible are regarding sonship.
There are other instances where a different "sense" is sometimes applied to sonship:
One example is Gideon, & his "seventy sons," and that other son, Abimelech, who never seems to get counted with the rest.
Gideon had many sons:
Now Gideon had seventy sons who were his direct descendants, for he had many wives. His concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he named him Abimelech. -Judges 8:30-31
Note that while his concubine "bore him a son," the child was not counted amongst his "sons who were his direct descendants." In other words, the concubine bore a son for him, but the child was not his "son" in the same sense as these "direct descendants" were.
Later, after the death of Gideon, Abimelech goes to the people of Shechem (where his concubine mother was from) and tries to persuade them to follow him instead of the seventy. Listen to how he appeals to them:
And Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal went to Shechem to his mother’s relatives, and spoke to them and to the whole clan of the household of his mother’s father, saying, “Speak, now, in the hearing of all the leaders of Shechem, ‘Which is better for you, that seventy men, all the sons of Jerubbaal, rule over you, or that one man rule over you?’ Also, remember that I am your bone and your flesh.” -Judges 9:1-2
Note that even Abimelech himself does not consider himself part of "all the sons of Jerubbaal." What the example from Abimelech's life shows us is that a "son" in one sense can be excluded from the list of "sons" in another sense. In the case of Abimelech, it was because he was born of a concubine and not by one of Gideon's wives.
Was Ishmael a different kind of "son" than Isaac? It turns out he was, in a number of ways:
Isaac was the "child of promise", Ishmael was the child of disobedience or unbelief. Ishmael was the result of Abraham and mainly Sarah's attempt to force the promises of God to come to pass through their own conniving and willfulness.
Ishmael (like Abimelech,) was born of a concubine, and not by his father's own wife
As a result, it was in Isaac that Abraham's descendants were to be named. (Gen. 21:12)
So, was Ishmael Abraham's son? Yes! In one sense; according to the flesh.
Was Isaac Abraham's "only son"? Yes! In another sense; according to the promise.
I believe that this drama illustrates two powerful truths to the way life works in the universe that God has created:
1. When a person, through their own willfulness tries to force the good things that God has promised to come to pass through their own designs and willfulness, then God allows this, but he also allows that person to be responsible for the results.
Conversely, when a person allows God to work out his promises of good things in a believer's life, then He (God) becomes responsible for the results.
We see a powerful testimony to this truth of what happens when believers take matters into their own hands with the Arab / Israeli conflict in the Middle East today - the descendants of the child of obedience (promise/faith through Issac) and the child of disobedience - (willfulness though Ishmael)
2. Sonship with God does not come by way of our works, church affiliation, intelligence, etc., but only by faith.
Abraham's "only son" came by his only wife, according to God's only promise, and thus, it was only in Isaac that Abraham's descendants would be named.
Paul brings this theme to a conclusion in Galatians 3:
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
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47
Is the Bible God's word? Help please.....
by Freeandclear inso real quick, i know this comes up now and then and i've looked over some of the posts from the past but here's the thing.. when i was a jw i drank all the cool aid, i was 100% and so i have all my own arguments (from the jw's) for why the bible is inspired.
i no longer believe this but i'd really like to read something that is pretty much 100% academic on this subject.
i want to read what scholars have to say about the authenticity of the bible and it's claim at being the inspired word of god.
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Perry
Where did Abraham get his camel? Probably from the same place this man did.
Third Millennium BC Egyptian petroglyph of a man leading a dromedary camel.
Credit: Ripinsky 1985.
The entire carving was dated to the 6th Dynasty of Egypt, ca. 2345-2181 BC, based on the inscription, the style, and the patina. This places the use of domesticated camels in Egypt at least as early as ca. 2200 BC.
Genesis is full of Myth and Legend.
In my research, I have found that humans are full of confirmation bias, selective reasoning, and shameless self promotion, far more than Genesis is full of myth and legend.
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Is the Bible God's word? Help please.....
by Freeandclear inso real quick, i know this comes up now and then and i've looked over some of the posts from the past but here's the thing.. when i was a jw i drank all the cool aid, i was 100% and so i have all my own arguments (from the jw's) for why the bible is inspired.
i no longer believe this but i'd really like to read something that is pretty much 100% academic on this subject.
i want to read what scholars have to say about the authenticity of the bible and it's claim at being the inspired word of god.
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Perry
I believe the Bible is inspired by God. I have done a lot of research.
Here are a couple of websites you might want to use for researching the claims of skeptics.
http://christianthinktank.com/
It is time consuming to read up on specific subjects, but that is really the only way to prove things to yourself. It is worth it for the clarity of mind.
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It won’t be much longer now.
by Tameria2001 ina couple weeks back my husband got a phone call from his brother, whom he hasn’t spoken to in nearly 17 years.
well i take that back, he did speak to him at the family reunion, asking him to leave.
my husband basically told him to f off, he would leave when he’s darn good and ready, but he didn’t use the word darn.
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Perry
I'm sorry the lack of love caused you so much pain. Take the high road, whatever that may be. Vindictiveness, however disguised always seems to consume.
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Revelation 5:9,10 and the 144,000
by Darkknight757 ini hesitate to ask this question.
during some recent research on youtube i came across a few videos explaining how watchtower manipulated revelation 5:10. revelation 5:10 "you have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our god,and they will reign on the earth.”" -niv.
the nwt13 renders this verse: 10 and you made them to be a kingdom+ and priests to our god,+ and they are to rule as kings+ over the earth.”.
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Perry
Dark Knight.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with much. I think a lot of Christians are perfectly happy in lumping together the 144K with the blood washed multitude.
After all, these peripheral hopes ARE NOT the hope of Church Age Christians, which is where we are still at - even though this dispensation is about to conclude.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ - Titus 2: 13
The blessed hope of Christians is the appearing. Church age believers are not hoping for surviving Armageddon, or the great tribulation, being good enough, Gods forgiveness, etc. God's forgiveness was guaranteed to believers on Calvary Hill with the final proclamation, "It is finished".
However, Jesus actually returns twice, once in the clouds...just as he left. At that time, the trump will sound and all the righteous dead will hear his voice and will rise to meet him in the air, with glorified bodies, like his. (not spirits) These people are caught up to meet him in the air. Jesus takes this group (1st resurrection) into heaven for one giant Almighty 7 Year PARTY!) This is one party no one should miss.
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. - Mt 6:29
But, the catching up of believers is not the end of salvation. There are still two more groups:
1. 144k Israelites
2. The blood washed multitude
After the rapture, Jesus will not come back all the way to the earth until the Jewish people cry out "blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord". This will be at a very late hour after the Antichrist has devastated the earth with various wars.
Remember, the the OT contract is with the Nation of Israel, & was not made void by the ratification of the NT contract with individuals.
Both contracts guarantee survival. One is for the survival of a nation. One is for the survival of the individual. "Better promises" and better terms.
Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. - Romans 11
Christians are not the stalk. We are the "branches" that were "grafted in". The seed of the vine was the seed of faith planted by Abraham. It has been growing all this time on the earth.
So, there will be :
1. a salvation of primarily gentile (but also Jewish) believers who rule with Christ (Christians)
2. a national salvation of Israel after the rapture (which includes the 144K "out of every tribe")
3. an earthly salvation of people that will be left over in the earth after the rapture & after the great tribulation .
This last group attains entry into the earthly kingdom by nothing more than
a.) not taking the mark of the beast and
b.) being nice to the nation of Israel during the great tribulation. (The Antichrist seeks to destroy Israel but cannot)
This last group is somewhat clueless & surprised by their good fortune after witnessing so much carnage during the Great Tribulation:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?.........
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Those that did not join in with the hatred of the Jews in the GT will be allowed to enter the Millennium Reign.
Jesus will be the King of Israel. It is going to happen, nothing can stop it. And all the peoples of the earth will be incredibly blessed by it.
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Does the book of Ezekiel hint that the God of the Jews is not who they think he is?
by EndofMysteries inezekiel 28 talks about the "king of tyre" and in chap 28 starting vs 13 what he is made of.
it calls him a cherub and also lists these stones he was adorned with (here is something interesting....), "every precious stone adorned you:.
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
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Perry
If any wisdom listed came from the Egyptians, it came from God anyway, even if only from their conscious. And if isolated extractions were made, the context is totally different than pagan thought.
I read the title of this thread and the OP twice and still could not determine what the point was.
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Since My Mom's Death--not a JW in sight !
by minimus ini had one lovebombing when she died by the congregation and since then---- nada.
lol.
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Perry
Sorry to hear about your mom's passing. Maybe start a new chapter in your life now that your mom is gone? Maybe new friends, a new church?
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32
God does not desire any to be destroyed?
by stuckinarut2 inso if the idea is promoted that god doesn't want anyone to be destroyed, why does he make it so confusing for people to learn about him?.
why are there thousands of differing religions?.
why has "his only true organisation" even taught so many varying doctrines?.
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Perry
Satan can be the cause of death and get millenniums of years to live; I inherit death from Eve and I get 70 years. Makes perfect sense doesn't it?
OGTG,
I think you are making a common mistake in defining death. This is understandable from a JW/7th Day Adventist background. For humans, when you are separated from your body, you are biblically dead.
The idea of consciousness after death was widely accepted from Israel's earliest times, contrary to what the Watchtower would have its members believe.
The lexicographical evidence is so clear that the great Princeton scholar, B. B. Warfield; stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no “hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the persistence of the soul in life after death. The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol.”2 George Eldon Ladd in The New Bible Dictionary (p. 380), comments: In the Old Testament, man does not cease to exist at death, but his soul descends to Sheol.
Humans alone are made in the image of God as a tri-partite being - spirit, soul & body. This is in imitation of our triune creator. Spirits are not said to have been made in the image of God. WE were. We have a spirit and ARE a spirit.
You will be conscious eternally. There is NOTING you can do to change this. It is pre-built into the design of humans.
The thing about God is that he is in the business of creating victory & freedom. He doesn't leave us in our bitterness, self pity, blame and discontent. Yes, he must do his duty one day at judgment, but his primary business is one of restoration.
He is the God of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ....77th chance, especially in this age of Grace. He has a destiny for each one of us to restore each of us to his/her rightful place as a royal family member.
The work of Gods enemies are powerless against God's ability to restore brokenness.
