Posts by deegee

16

The Anointed Class: Do They Have Spirits?

by Cold Steel in

i realize that the anointed class inherits heaven while the great crowd inherits a renewed planet earth, but how and when are the anointed chosen?

are these people born with spirits or do they grow them as they live?

when they die, they don't sleep but go right to heaven, right?

deegee

The WT teaches that there's no part of a human being that survives the death of a human being.........but I suppose there is an exception in the case of the anointed.

18

What if Jesus Christ was not put to death by the Romans but instead died a natural death?

by deegee in

according to christianity, the death of jesus was a miscarriage of justice.

so then, what if there was no so-called miscarriage of justice so that jesus was not put to death by the romans but he instead died a natural death?

would christians still receive the forgiveness of their sins and their hoped for salvation?.

According to Christianity, the death of Jesus was a miscarriage of justice. So then, what if there was no so-called miscarriage of justice so that Jesus was not put to death by the Romans but he instead died a natural death? Would Christians still receive the forgiveness of their sins and their hoped for salvation?

7

Does God communicate with humans today?

by deegee in

there seems to be confusion within christianity regarding whether or not god communicates with humans today and if he does, how does he do it?.

- does god still insert thoughts into people's minds today or is that something which he only did in the past?.

- some maintain that god is no longer giving persons dreams/visions or speaking directly to them or sending angels to speak with them today but he will nevertheless insert thoughts into their minds to guide them.

deegee

How does a person know whether they are just experiencing psychotic/delusional thoughts or if it is god who is actually speaking to them or inserting thoughts into his/her mind?

Does God make it unequivocally, unambiguously, explicitly clear up front whether or not it is he who is doing these things (speaking to the person or inserting thoughts into his/her mind)?

This has implications for the following JW doctrines:

- the calling of the 144,000 (a unique doctrine of the JW's)

- the JW's claim that Jesus chose them as the only one true religion in 1919

- the JW's claim that God leads/directs their governing body

7

Does God communicate with humans today?

by deegee in

there seems to be confusion within christianity regarding whether or not god communicates with humans today and if he does, how does he do it?.

- does god still insert thoughts into people's minds today or is that something which he only did in the past?.

- some maintain that god is no longer giving persons dreams/visions or speaking directly to them or sending angels to speak with them today but he will nevertheless insert thoughts into their minds to guide them.

deegee

There seems to be confusion within Christianity regarding whether or not God communicates with humans today and if he does, how does he do it?

- Does God still insert thoughts into people's minds today or is that something which he only did in the past?

- Some maintain that God is no longer giving persons dreams/visions or speaking directly to them or sending angels to speak with them today but he will nevertheless insert thoughts into their minds to guide them.
I don't see any difference between these different modes of communication since God is still communicating with persons.

- Some maintain that God does not in this age speak to humans through dreams, visions or any direct communication apart from the Word of God and the Bible is all sufficient in directing a person to finding and carrying out the will of God for their lives, without the need of a dream, vision or special communication from God in that manner.
If this is the case then I can only conclude that THERE IS NO NEED TO PRAY since God is not going to answer you; all you now have to do is to just read the Bible and then try to figure out what you should do.

On top of all of this confusion, God does not make it unequivocally, unambiguously, explicitly clear up front whether it is he who is inserting the thoughts into a person's mind or whether it is the unconscious dynamics of a person's mind at work. This is especially problematic in the case of a person who is delusional and experiencing psychotic symptoms but who may claim that god is communicating with him or her.

How does a person - whether psychotic/delusional or not psychotic/delusional know whether it is god who is inserting thoughts into his/her mind or speaking with him/her, if God does not make it unequivocally, unambiguously, explicitly clear up front whether it is he who is inserting the thoughts into a person's mind/speaking to them or whether it is just the unconscious dynamics of the person's mind at work?

16

The glaring inequity between the 144,000 & the Great Crowd

by deegee in

there is a glaring inequity between the 144,000 & the great crowd (gc):.

the gc will experience:.

1. the great tribulation - a gruelling/horrifying time which has never occurred before.. 2. armageddon.. 3. a thousand years of “loving” molding and refinement.. 4. a second armageddon at the end of the thousand years.. the 144,000 will experience none of these things.. isn't it strange that the gc has to prove themself so much but the 144,000 don't???!!!

deegee

Now we see why JWs want to be a part of the anointed/144,000 and why the number of memorial partakers has been rising.........it seems the rank & file have figured out which is the better group to be a part of, LOL.

16

The glaring inequity between the 144,000 & the Great Crowd

by deegee in

there is a glaring inequity between the 144,000 & the great crowd (gc):.

the gc will experience:.

1. the great tribulation - a gruelling/horrifying time which has never occurred before.. 2. armageddon.. 3. a thousand years of “loving” molding and refinement.. 4. a second armageddon at the end of the thousand years.. the 144,000 will experience none of these things.. isn't it strange that the gc has to prove themself so much but the 144,000 don't???!!!

deegee

There is a glaring inequity between the 144,000 & the Great Crowd (GC):

The GC will experience:

1. The Great Tribulation - a gruelling/horrifying time which has never occurred before.

2. Armageddon.

3. A thousand years of “loving” molding and refinement.

4. A second Armageddon at the end of the thousand years.

The 144,000 will experience NONE of these things.

Isn't it strange that the GC has to prove themself so much but the 144,000 don't???!!!!

28

Why Judaism and the Torah ?

by Crazyguy in

so i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.

gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .

the practice of emperor worship etc.

deegee

- Did Constantine want to bring the internal Pauline disharmony to an end as stated by Doug Mason?

- Was there also the goal to use Christianity to achieve harmony and unity in the wider Roman Empire, not just within Christianity?

- Was Constantine himself involved in this aspect?

- Do we know why Constantine converted to Christianity?

The following is a quote from Professor Dale B. Martin who teaches the Yale University open course INTRODUCTION TO THE NEW TESTAMENT HISTORY AND LITERATURE:

http://oyc.yale.edu/transcript/894/rlst-152:

"Constantine also wanted to stop all this feuding about what was orthodox Christianity. So he uses the power of the emperor's throne to force bishops to come together in several different councils.

The most famous of which, in 325, is the council of Nicaea, and of course this is where we get the term the Nicene Creed, which if you're Roman Catholic or Episcopalian or several other kinds of Christianity, you may recite the Nicene Creed on certain holy days or in church. This is the longer creed, which talks about Jesus being fully man, fully human. It brings in the Trinity, so you have Trinitarian theology becoming a bit more solidified at the council of Nicaea. It didn't win the day because throughout the fourth century you still had fights among different bishops, some people not accepting the Nicene Creed. Years later you had another creed pronounced at Chalcedon, so that's called the Chalcedonian Creed.

And all of these were attempts though promoted by the emperors. The emperors wanted to use Christianity to solidify a one empire again and to keep it from being split. You couldn't do that if you had different groups claiming to represent the right Christianity and claiming that everybody represents the wrong Christianity. That was the real push for what counts as orthodox Christianity and the bringing of more unity to Christianity.

What we have not seen in this semester is what you would call correct Trinitarian doctrine in the New Testament, it's just not there. You've got all kinds of views about Jesus that would later be declared heretical. They're still there in the New Testament, and what Christians do is that we just read kind of carefully and interpret it a little bit slickly so that it makes it look more orthodox than it actually is. That's because there was no orthodoxy that could claim to rule different Christians who called themselves Christians throughout the empire. This is what starts changing in the fourth century. Like I said, they don't succeed.

So you have debates about orthodoxy for centuries, but it's with Constantine in the beginning of the fourth century, and he had a long dynasty. His progeny, his sons, and then their sons, and their sons retained the throne for years after that. So you had this Constantinian dynasty that was able to bring a good bit of solidity to the Roman Empire in the fourth century that it hadn't enjoyed in the third century. And therefore, they used this to sort of bring about orthodox Christianity as the single form of Christianity. That's the most important change, therefore, for the fourth century.

Do we know why Constantine converted?

He says it's because he saw a vision right before the battle. Scholars debate that. Some scholars say he converted because he looked around and he saw that this was, although it was a minority movement, there was no way that this was a majority, it was a vibrant movement that was going on in Rome, in the Roman Empire, and maybe he said, that's something I can use. He was already an admirer of the sun god, and he was moving toward a certain form of monotheism where the sun was the only god. Some people say it wasn't that big of a jump for him to switch that to Jesus, and so some people say, he had this political idea that it would be a smart thing to do and that he made up the vision later.

There are different reasons. We don't really know truly his psychological motivations for conversion.

Obviously with Constantine you get the emperor promoting this religion now."

28

Why Judaism and the Torah ?

by Crazyguy in

so i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.

gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .

the practice of emperor worship etc.

deegee

Saename:

What I was talking about is whyConstantine became Christian.deegee made claims that it was for political reasons—to bring unity and peace to the Roman Empire. I believe that this is total nonsense. This is what I was talking about, and I gave reasons for my stance in one of my previous posts.

It seems there are 2 things at issue here:

1. The reason for Constantine's conversion to Christianity.

2. Why did Constantine back/promote the Paulines out of all the other early forms of Christianity, after his conversion.

Please note that in my previous comments I never stated anything about the reason for Constantine's conversion to Christianity (#1). My comment addressed why Constantine backed/promoted the Paulines out of all the other early forms of Christianity, after his conversion (#2):

Of great importance is the fact that some of Paul's writings pandered to the Roman authorities e.g. Paul's writing in Romans 13 calls for submission to governmental authorities, although passages in 1 Corinthians may be said to contradict this. 2 Thessalonians, a pseudonymous letter, also preaches a politically conservative and accommodative message.
(http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-24).
Given Paul's pandering to the Roman authorities, Constantine saw the political value of Pauline Christianity - Pauline Christianity was not just seen as a religion but as a political solution to bring about the unity and harmony and control of the populace which Constantine desired.
With this in mind, one can understand why Constantine and Theodosius promoted the Paulines out of all the other conflicting voices of early Christianity.

28

Why Judaism and the Torah ?

by Crazyguy in

so i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.

gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .

the practice of emperor worship etc.

deegee

Saename:

My comment above was not about Constantine's pre-conversion status but about the likely reason why Constantine promoted the Paulines out of all the other conflicting voices of early Christianity, after his conversion.

According to:
http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf

Among the early Christianities were the Ebonites, Marcionites, Montanists, Gnostics, Docetists, Valentinians, Sabellianists and others who considered themselves to be true followers of Jesus. But the group that ultimately triumphed were the Paulines who became known as Orthodox - their opponents were branded as heretics.

The dominance of the Pauline sect was recognized and spread by Emperor Constantine and its beliefs were further influenced by Emperor Theodosius.

The Church Fathers and the churches that ultimately delivered a list (canon) of sacred Scriptures, could not be described to be in any way in complete harmony with one another. They added to the cacophony of conflicting ideas. The nation that consistently sought for harmony and unity imposed its will upon this babble of conflicting ideas. It became involved in the internal disharmonies that existed within the maelstrom of conflicting Christian ideas and drove them.
That nation was the city-state of Rome.

The division among the Christians grew until Emperor Constantine in 325 CE called a general Council, in order to heal the rifts.

The men who strove for harmony, even to the point of deciding doctrine, were Constantine and Theodosius. They promoted Christianity and they promoted only one of its many voices: the Paulines.
The outcome includes the rejection of Arianism (Theodosius in 381 CE) and ultimately the list of sacred Scriptures, the New Testament.

If Constantine had installed a different form of Christianity, then the list of sacred Scriptures, the teachings and the practices would have been completely different.

The Christianity which Constantine joined was that proposed by the successors of the Apostle Paul. Other forms existed, with at least Marcion operating from Rome for a while. Constantine caused the survival of Christianity, having made it the formally recognized state religion and the recognized format was Paul's religion. Constantine became closely involved in it, bringing with him the Roman desire for harmony and unity. For that reason, he instituted the church-wide Council at Nicea, its task being the setting of the date for Easter.

A few decades after Constantine instituted Christianity, the Roman desire for harmony and unity, this time within the Church, manifested itself in 381 CE when Emperor Theodosius instructed that Arianism was not acceptable - the long and detailed philosophical discussions within the church on the nature of Christ were resolved by imperial decree.

28

Why Judaism and the Torah ?

by Crazyguy in

so i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.

gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .

the practice of emperor worship etc.

deegee

http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf

and http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152#sessions

also offer insights into what transpired back in the day.

These are some of the thing which I think were significant contributors:

1. There was a maelstrom of conflicting ideas among the various early Christianities. The Paulines (who owe their origin to the Apostle Paul) eventually won out and became the dominant force in Christianity; all other groups were branded as heretics.

The first followers of Jesus were Jews, as Jesus himself was, and these followers saw Jesus as a wise teacher, not as God. It is said that Paul embellished the Jesus story in order to undermine the Jewish Christians so as to take power away from them.

2. Of great importance is the fact that some of Paul's writings pandered to the Roman authorities e.g. Paul's writing in Romans 13 calls for submission to governmental authorities, although passages in 1 Corinthians may be said to contradict this. 2 Thessalonians, a pseudonymous letter, also preaches a politically conservative and accommodative message.
(http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-24).

Given Paul's pandering to the Roman authorities, Constantine saw the political value of Pauline Christianity - Pauline Christianity was not just seen as a religion but as a political solution to bring about the unity and harmony and control of the populace which Constantine desired.

With this in mind, one can understand why Constantine and Theodosius promoted the Paulines out of all the other conflicting voices of early Christianity.

3. There were only a certain number of writings which were recognized as Christian writings by the Catholic Church. From that number, the books which comprise the NT were selected by the Catholic Church.

The Gospels, Pauline letters and other NT texts which were selected were a midrash on the OT scriptures and as such the OT and Torah came to be recognized as being relevant/important because of the NT writers.