Posts by deegee

26

Was it Adam who altered his own DNA so that sicknesses & consequent death would be passed on to his offspring?

by deegee in

the blame for mankind's sicknesses/diseases and consequent death has been placed squarely on the shoulders of adam:.

romans 5:12, 17 - 19:"therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—for if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man.......consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people........for just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners........".

1 corinthians 15: 21, 22:"for since death came through a man........... for as in adam all die.......".

deegee

When a person commits suicide, what is the proximate cause of death, the instrument, the person, or God who made the person mortal?

Interesting question Fisherman.

It seems the underlying causes of suicide are either mental health issues or terminal (physical) illness.

According to researchers, suicide in most cases involves an underlying mental health condition.
For example, researchers have found that if someone close to an adolescent dies by suicide, the adolescent’s mental health history is a bigger predictor of future suicidal behavior than his or her relationship to the suicide victim:

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/colorado-springs-teens-keep-killing-themselves/ar-AAj9RXy?li=AAggNb9

http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(09)60217-3/abstract

Mental health issues usually arise from a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Some choose doctor assisted suicide to end their lives when they are terminally ill:

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/wellness/first-child-dies-by-euthanasia-with-parent%E2%80%99s-approval/ar-BBwlvwn

There is also the ongoing debate whether the mentally ill should also be allowed the option of doctor assisted suicide:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/medical/my-life-is-a-nightmare-windsor-man-27-wants-legally-assisted-death/ar-AAjH8Oc?li=AAggNb9

I think it is safe to say that the underlying causes of suicide - mental health issues or terminal illness - stem from defects in the human mind and body.

26

Was it Adam who altered his own DNA so that sicknesses & consequent death would be passed on to his offspring?

by deegee in

the blame for mankind's sicknesses/diseases and consequent death has been placed squarely on the shoulders of adam:.

romans 5:12, 17 - 19:"therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—for if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man.......consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people........for just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners........".

1 corinthians 15: 21, 22:"for since death came through a man........... for as in adam all die.......".

deegee

I heard from an older jw that the idea was once that Adam and Eve would have eventually had to eat from the Tree of Life or die. The WTS also says that the difference between humans on earth living forever required support from God, water, air, food, etc, and the anointed in heaven and Jesus, spirit creatures that did not need support to live from God, that their life was within themselves............

Thanks for bringing this up Blondie.

If Adam & Eve needed to eat from the tree of life in order to live, then it means that they were never created with an inherent ability to live forever, they were created detective, to die, to be prone to disease and consequent death. The default position was death and a defective body prone to diseases, so whether or not Adam & Eve sinned they were going to die anyway. This contradicts the WT's position that everything God created was good:

Genesis 1:31: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good".
1Timothy 4:4:
"For everything God created is good........"

Whether:

1. God created Adam (& Eve) with a perfect body then altered his DNA (my statement above),

OR

2. Adam (& Eve) did not have the inherent ability to live forever as they needed to eat from the tree of life in order to live forever. And so Adam (& Eve) was never created with a perfect body in the first place. God created Adam (& Eve) with a defective body prone to diseases and death.

in both cases, wouldn't it be God who is responsible for sickness and consequent death in the world?

Point 2. brings me to another point: Jesus ransom sacrifice was meaningless if Adam did not lose a perfect body.

31

1000 Years is Like 1 Day?

by Sorry in

anyone else hear about this.

as all j-dubs know, whenever someone complains about how long the "new system" is taking too arrive, they use the excuse that jehovah works on his own time.

quite a few times during the public talks, i've heard speakers say the phrase "1000 years to us is only one day to jehovah" (my parents never stop talking about this).

deegee

BTW, according to the WT "day" has several meanings:
- 1 day
- 77.14 days
- 360 days
- 1 year
- 1,000 years
- 7,000 years

http://smmcroberts.net/blog/its-about-time/

31

1000 Years is Like 1 Day?

by Sorry in

anyone else hear about this.

as all j-dubs know, whenever someone complains about how long the "new system" is taking too arrive, they use the excuse that jehovah works on his own time.

quite a few times during the public talks, i've heard speakers say the phrase "1000 years to us is only one day to jehovah" (my parents never stop talking about this).

deegee

- a 1000 years is as 1 day
- Jesus meant:
* the world would end before the generation that saw 1914 passed away
* the generation of people who were at least 12 years old in 1914
* the generation of people who were babies, at least 0 years old in 1914
* the generations are overlapping

- no one knows the day or hour

............etc etc.............

are all rationalizations and apologetics to avoid admitting that Jesus Christ made a failed end of the world prediction.

31

1000 Years is Like 1 Day?

by Sorry in

anyone else hear about this.

as all j-dubs know, whenever someone complains about how long the "new system" is taking too arrive, they use the excuse that jehovah works on his own time.

quite a few times during the public talks, i've heard speakers say the phrase "1000 years to us is only one day to jehovah" (my parents never stop talking about this).

deegee

This is just another way for the WT (and others) to avoid admitting that Jesus said that he would return before HIS GENERATION had passed away:

and so they resort to all sorts of speculative interpretations to make Jesus' words not mean what they clearly say. To do otherwise would mean admitting that Jesus made a failed end of the world prediction which would make Jesus Christ...........wait for it.........a false prophet!

31

1000 Years is Like 1 Day?

by Sorry in

anyone else hear about this.

as all j-dubs know, whenever someone complains about how long the "new system" is taking too arrive, they use the excuse that jehovah works on his own time.

quite a few times during the public talks, i've heard speakers say the phrase "1000 years to us is only one day to jehovah" (my parents never stop talking about this).

deegee

I recall the 1000 year as 1 day explanation while I was in - I recall it being a part of a WT study during the mid to late 90s.

It's based on 2 Peter 3:8, which says that "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

This is a popular quibble used to "explain" why Jesus hasn't returned yet. The WT and others will argue that when New Testament writers said that it was the "last hour" or that the end was "at hand," they were speaking in terms of how God perceives time:

"with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).

So we are supposed to believe that God inspired certain writers to tell people that Jesus would come again someday, but he chose to do so in language that had meaning only to an omniscient, omnipotent deity.

"Soon" didn't mean "soon," and "at hand" didn't mean "at hand," as humans understand these terms, but as God understands them.

Such an explanation makes God a devious entity who chose to reveal important information in sort of a secret code that would have meaning only to an omniscient, omnipotent deity.

The WT and others may think that this quibble is a reasonable explanation for the texts that said it was "the last hour" or that the end was "at hand", but they know that it doesn't give a satisfactory explanation to the passages where Jesus said that he would return before his generation had passed away, and so they resort to all sorts of speculative interpretations to make these passages not mean what they clearly say.

26

Was it Adam who altered his own DNA so that sicknesses & consequent death would be passed on to his offspring?

by deegee in

the blame for mankind's sicknesses/diseases and consequent death has been placed squarely on the shoulders of adam:.

romans 5:12, 17 - 19:"therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—for if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man.......consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people........for just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners........".

1 corinthians 15: 21, 22:"for since death came through a man........... for as in adam all die.......".

deegee

The blame for mankind's sicknesses/diseases and consequent death has been placed squarely on the shoulders of Adam:

Romans 5:12, 17 - 19:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man.......
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people........
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners........"

1 Corinthians 15: 21, 22:
"For since death came through a man........... For as in Adam all die......."

But was it Adam (and Eve) who altered his own DNA/genetic makeup so that sicknesses/diseases and consequent death would be passed on to his offspring or was it God who did this?

It is not a part of JW doctrine/practices to pray for healing but there are Christians who do this as it is a part of their doctrine/practices. I find it ironic that such Christians pray for healing from sicknesses/diseases when it is in fact God who altered Adam's (and Eve's) DNA so that his offspring would become sick and die in the first place - that is, it is God who made them prone to sickness yet they are praying to him for healing.

The implication of all of this is that since it is God who altered Adam's (and Eve's) DNA so that his offspring would become sick and die, then God is responsible for the sicknesses/diseases and the consequent death and suffering in the world.

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

So why should we believe the event in Acts 15 actually took place, or if it did, how can we place it chronologically with any certainty ?

I agree with your conclusion Phizzy.

It certainly is doubtful that the Jerusalem meeting in Acts 15 took place.

According to Acts 15:2, 12, 22 - 26, 35, Paul was at the meeting in Jerusalem at which the Holy Spirit issued the requirement to abstain from foods offered to idols etc. However, in Paul's writings in Galatians etc, there is no mention of any such meeting taking place which Paul attended.

It seems the Jewish Christians were just trying to find a way to legitimize the continued observance of the law of Moses - they went so far as to declare that their decree in Acts 15 had the backing of the Holy Spirit.

The Jewish Christians however, had reason to insist on the continued observance of the Law of Moses:

They couldn't see how a covenant given by their perfect God Yahweh could be flawed as claimed by Paul. Paul stated that there was need for a second covenant to replace the first covenant because the first covenant was flawed:

Hebrews 8:7 (NIV):

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

Apparently it was difficult for the Jewish Christians to understand how the first covenant could have been flawed if Yahweh, the perfect one, had given it to the Hebrews.

This is one of the reasons why the Jews to this day have not accepted the New Testament or Christianity - how could a perfect God have given them a flawed covenant which needs to be replaced?

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

According to Paul, the gospel he preached is not of human origin as he received his revelation from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11,12).

The Jewish elders declared that the requirement to abstain from food sacrificed to idols was from the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus:
"The Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you (John 16:7,13 - 15).

So Jesus contradicted himself by issuing opposing/conflicting statements to Paul and the Jerusalem elders.

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

Thanks for the comments.

Whether Acts 15 was written before or after 1 Corinthians, a person reading Acts 15 and 1 Corinthians 8 & 10 for the first time and taking the scriptures at face value would note that:

- Acts 15:28, 29:
The Holy Spirit required that Gentile Christians abstain from foods sacrificed to idols.

- 1 Corinthians 8 & 10:
Paul told Gentile Christians the opposite: it did not matter if food offered to idols was eaten.

Reading these scriptures at face value, a person would conclude that Paul went against the Holy Spirit's requirement and in so doing went against Jesus and God since Jesus declared:

John 16:7,13 - 15:
"But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
But when he, the Spirit of TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all the TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because IT IS FROM ME THAT HE WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said THE SPIRIT WILL RECEIVE FROM ME WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU."

It certainly doesn't seem that the Holy Spirit & Jesus led the Jerusalem elders to the truth as far as Paul was concerned.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit just instruct the Jerusalem elders to give the same instructions to the Gentile Christians as Paul did ?

The conflicting statements reveal that there was conflict between the Jerusalem elders and Paul. It’s patently not clear direction from any God, but men,
different factions of early Christianity contending for their own way.