Posts by Drearyweather

22

India ... what's the latest?

by no-zombie in

we haven't heard much recently about india.

whats the current situation over there?

.

Drearyweather

steve2,

Comparing religious membership in India is very complicated task. You are right. Adventist Church in India has around 3000+ churches and number around 917,000.

The main reason for the growth of Adventist Church in India is because of the educational institutions and health institutes started by the Adventist churches during their early missionary stages from foreign contributions. Church structure began to grow around clinics and hospitals founded by early missionaries.

Not to disrespect the Adventist movement - In India, it is easy to recruit people in your denomination if you promise to provide them material benefits.

Majority of the Christian denominations in the country did this to increase and sustain membership. Some local churches provide monthly stipend to the families in their churches to avoid them falling prey to other Christian denominations. In fact, in remote areas, when JW’s approach them during door-to-door knocking, people simply say that they are ready to become JW’s if they give them more money than what their current churches give.

In a remote area, around 50 people turned out for a JW memorial expecting to get a free meal, since a zealous publisher invited them for ‘the Lord’s evening meal’.

In my opinion, with zero charity, zero schools, zero medical institutions, its impressive that JW’s managed around 45,000 in a country like India. No wonder, Lloyd Barry once called Edwin Skinner (JW British Missionary in India) as the ‘dean of missionaries’.

22

India ... what's the latest?

by no-zombie in

we haven't heard much recently about india.

whats the current situation over there?

.

Drearyweather

Steve2, for your comment:

At the current ratio of Witnesses to numbers in the population, it is nigh impossible to "cover" the territory.

Yes, it is impossible to cover the territory, hence as I mentioned, there are campaigns every year to cover these territories.

Due to strong religious fundamentalism, over 80% of the Indian Territory is closely guarded by the Branch office and even local publishers are not allowed to preach there without the branch’s approval. Hence, only the Branch decides when these territories need to be covered.

Still, considering the strong political, religious and socio-cultural scenario in the country, and now without foreign contributions and missionaries, in about 100 years, local publishers have managed to establish themselves in all the major cities in India; and in some areas at par with other Christian denominations who have been present in India for more than 400-500 years, some more than 1000 years.

Sir82

In other words, out of those 1.4 billion people, maybe 1.38 billion or so have never even so much heard the name "Jehovah's Witnesses"…

I must disagree to this. The Bijoe Emmanuel Supreme court case of 1986 has brought Jehovah’s Witnesses to the forefront of the Indian Legal system. Almost every prestigious educational institution in the country knows about this case and thus they do not interfere in cases related to students not singing the National Anthem. All Legal schools of the country discuss this case in their syllabus and have mock court sessions discussing it. The recent National Anthem ruling has again brought JW’s to the limelight.

So have Indian people heard about Jehovah’s Witnesses? Yes. At least they know that JW’s are those who do not sing the National Anthem.

Those who have not heard about JW’s are maybe the less educated masses who must not have even heard about Donald Trump.

Snakesinthetower,

In 06 I spoke with Service Dept in India. They acknowledged that local congregations often do things differently than Brooklyn. Bribes and payoffs to avoid DF and get position recommendations often occurred.

I feel India is not unique to this. This happens in all other countries as well.

22

India ... what's the latest?

by no-zombie in

we haven't heard much recently about india.

whats the current situation over there?

.

Drearyweather

Due to financial strain, Printing has been stopped and all literature is brought in from other countries. Supply and Distribution of Public Edition Watchtowers and Awakes have been stopped in India. But yes, they are translated and updated on the website as they are printed and distributed in other countries.Only tracts and brochures are placed in the field.

NWT - Last year New World Translation was simultaneously released in 6 Indian languages. (3 Complete NWT and 3 Greek Scriptures). So in a span of 6 years, NWT has been released in all major Indian languages. Focus has been in getting all NWT’s out in all Indian languages.

Even though the printing has stopped, translation has been going on in full swing, partly because NWT translators have become free for other assignments. JW Broadcasting is now available in major Indian languages and publications are regularly translated in Indian Sign Language and Regional Conventions are being held in ISL as well.

Since foreign missionaries are not allowed in the country, every year, there are 3 month or 5 month campaigns to reach unassigned territories and many groups have come up in those parts. Some of these campaigns and the recently released NWT’s are responsible for the continuous growth (consistent 5%) despite financial strain.

Witnesses are present now in all metropolitan cities of the country and over 80% of the congregations have their own Kingdom Halls. RTO’s are present in affluent cities of the country and hence many local witnesses are signing up as volunteers.

Legal situation remains the same- no foreign contributions. So everything done is supported by local publishers.

16

A Perfect Life Isn't Worth Living?

by Sorry in

think of your favorite tv shows.

what do they all have in common?

the answer is they revolve around some type of problem or conflict.

Drearyweather

Sorry,

Wanted to check from you:

You said:

It would get boring very quickly if there were no problems, if everyone was smart and nice, if everyone had that same perfect personality.......Nothing would be interesting since we'd all be the same perfect people

Do JW's believe that in Paradise all living there will have the same perfect personality? i.e. the same qualities, habits and knowledge?

Your only purpose is eating fruit, petting tigers and singing Kumbaya all day. No motivation to change or grow.

Again, do they believe that in Paradise all will have perfect mind and knowledge, i.e. that will know everything and hence there won’t be anything more to learn than just living? I know that they believe that all will reach a state of perfect physical bodies. But, do they also believe that one day all will reach the same plane or state of a perfect mind and knowledge?

According to me, perfection means a state of being flawless or faultless. I can understand the perfect state of human body. But a perfect mind? Perfection has a sense of transcendence and hence a perfect person with a perfect mind will always look for more avenues of fulfillment and satisfaction.

70

Pseudo history in Watchtower today 😂

by Gorbatchov in

jw
friends

gorby went to the kh for family reasons today.. and landed right away middle in a pseudo history watchtower article.

just that aspect of the jw belief he is so sensative about.. so 1918 and 1919 are changed with one mark of a pencil.

the argument of change was in the past the argument of the doctrine.

Drearyweather

Skin, for your question:

One question I have. Is there any biblical reason to believe that the events that were recorded in the Bible long ago, are to have another or 2nd fulfillment in our modern day?

The only reason why people look for a modern day or future fulfillment of these prophecies is because the prophets used such terms as “In the last days” “final part of the days”, “He will reign…from that time on and forever” in their prophecies (Isaiah, Micah and so on)

Since Captivity and Restoration has been continuously mentioned in the prophetic books of the Bible, some Christian denominations including JW’s look towards its current fulfillment

29

Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

Drearyweather

Thanks Yesu. For your comments:

For me, it is vital to know whether Lot and his family were aware of the fact that these men were angels.

I can understand your point here. There are many instances in the Bible where God’s people were not sure whether the messengers were angels or men. Even the angels themselves did not identify themselves while bringing God’s messages.

For example, you can find Manoah’s Wife’s dilemma in Judges 13:6, “Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel ….” Then Manoah’s question at verse 11, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”. Even though they were still confused about this, they still believed what the angel told. In fact after the angel ascended in the flame to the heavens, did they realize as said in verse 21, “Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.”. Throughout the incident, the angel did not reveal his name or his identity, but Manoah came to the right conclusion by the events that happened.

Genesis Chapter 19 tells some interesting things for me to consider. As it happened in Manoah’s case, the messengers during Lot’s time did not identify themselves as angels. But three things that happened in the chapter that stood out for me:

First, Gen. 19:11: “Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness.” This act by the visitors of Lot was the first indication that they were not ordinary men, but angels. Only angels were capable of doing such an act. In fact, after this particular incident, Lot used the name of God, Yahweh or Jehovah while telling about these men to his son in laws.

Second, Gen. 19:21: “He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of.” It seems that Zoar was in the list of cities that God was to destroy. But God showed mercy and greatly reduced Lots running time and spared an entire city for their safety. Did Lot’s wife realize this mercy shown by God?

Third, Gen. 19:24 “Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.” Sulfur started raining down on Sodom as Lot and his family reached Zoar. In verse 21, the angel told, "I will not overthrow the town" With Sodom's destruction happening behind, and the town she was standing spared, did she not realize that those men were actual angelic messengers? Did she realize that she was now in a town that was destined for the same fate as Sodom? With all the destruction now taking place behind them, did Lot’s wife still doubt whether those men were angels or mere men? Did she realize that what those two men told was actually coming true? Was she still confused if the message was actually from God? If she still doubted after all this, I see a serious lack of faith here. Almost to the point of absurdity.

they could not have been held accountable by God for their actions, since they did not know whether it was a commandment made by God.

With all the events happening that day, were they still confused whether it was a commandment by God? What more should have God done apart from what he had already done for them?

I still think this event is unjust

For me, in the entire episode mentioned in Genesis 19, God showed mercy four times:

· First, he saved Lot by blinding those who came to his door.
· Second, even in such an urgent time, he gave Lot the opportunity to take along with him his son-in-laws (possibly Sodomites) and other relatives, if any.
· Third, he safely brought them out of the city in time.
· Fourth, he allowed them to go to Zoar (which was nearby) rather than to the mountainous region.

In return, they were expected to follow only one command, “Do not look back.” Was this unjust? Not for me.

In any case, Lord Jesus gave the command to "Remember the wife of Lot". and I remember her for her disobedience.

But you can have your opinions and I respect it. Thanks Yesu, for the wonderful discussion.

29

Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

Drearyweather

Thanks Yesu. Regarding your comment,

From verse 10 to 12, the angels in the form of men were only engaged in a conversation with Lot. I understand your point here, but we cannot say with certainty that Lot's wife was hearing the conversation between the men and Lot.

Agreed. Much of the discussion was between Lot and the angels. But regarding the command not to look back, Genesis 19:17 says, "As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! ..."

As I see it, this time, this command was addressed to all four of them. If Lot's wife was not attentive to the angel at such a perilous time, then I feel she was all the more careless.

Moreover, where does the Bible tell that any commandments before the Mosaic Law applied to all those hearing it?

Sorry for my words. I was trying to say that God gave his commandments to those he purposed too. Regarding the covenant, he spoke to Abraham and it applied to all of his descendants. The command to flee from the city applied to Lot and his family. But as you say, this is bit irrelevant. I apologize for my choice of words.

But this is highly doubtful. I am not convinced that Lot was aware of this.

For me, it does not matter whether Lot considered them as angels or mere strangers. But he considered their message as God’s command and diligently acted upon it. In fact, some Early Hebrew manuscripts render Genesis 19:18 as "Oh no, Yahweh, please!....", i.e Lot considered them messengers or spokesmen of God.

First, God is merciful and led Lot and his family safely out of the city, and just moments later, He seems to have changed His mind 180 degrees and kills Lot's wife. What is merciful about that?

God let Lot's family out of the city, and then told them to run to the mountainous regions without looking back. (Gen 19:17). The account says that God executed Lot's wife for violating this command. It don't see here God changing his mind or doing anything contrary to what he commanded to all four of them.

29

Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

Drearyweather

How can these two things ever be reconciled with each other?

Again, my opinion, based on what I know:

Lots wife and David are two characters separated by two different set of situations. The Bible is silent on whether Lot's wife did anything positive in this entire episode. Lots wife was at the threshold of God's divine judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah. God was about to DESTROY an entire city with its inhabitants and thus expected a sense of urgency among Lot and his family. Even after initial lingering they believed and fled the city. However, when God started raining down fire on Sodom, it was evident to Lot and his wife that what those men told was true and thus it would be to their benefit to believe their command. Did Lot's wife still doubt it? Was she presumptuous? Did pride come her way? In any case, that was no time to stop and think about it nor was the time for repenting on what she did. In this scenario, if Lot or in fact even David were in place of Lot's wife, they would have been killed too.

David's sin was violation of God written law. But yes, I feel that David had much good things to his credit so God allowed him time to repent, the way he showed mercy to Aaron and Sons of Levi who were spared by God during the golden calf episode. David gave in to his human nature or sinful tendencies and committed the grave sin. But Lot's wife's actions were in direct conflict to God's command during a divine judgment.

I do not compare these two episodes. It is more than just whether it was a Law or not. For me, these two scenarios are two separate situations with a completely different premise. God's response to each of the character's actions was thus different. Again this is the way I look at it.

29

Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

Drearyweather

Like Paul says, in Romans 4:15 And where there is no law there is no transgression.

True. But when people overstep God commands, they become transgressors. As stated in 1 Timothy 2: 14, Eve broke God's command (or law) and became a transgressor or sinner. Similarly, when Lots wife broke God's command, she became a sinner or transgressor. And as Galatians 3:19 says, God has used angels to transmit Laws.

29

Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

Drearyweather

My opinions:

In my view, Lot’s wife was under no law. This event happened more than 400 years prior to Moses, when the Law was introduced.

True. But it seems that before the Mosaic Law came into effect, anything that God 'commanded' was taken as a 'Law' or Statute...

First, this brings confusion when reading the following verse: Genesis 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws. Some argue that these laws refer to the Noahic covenant

Partly, Yes. It includes the Noahic covenant, like blood prohibition, etc. But the laws mentioned in Gen 26:5 also refers to those particularly given to Abraham as in - command to circumcise all men. They were not in written form as done with the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was an entire legal system in itself. But no such written system existed during the Patriarchal times. So any divine command given prior to the Mosaic times constituted as 'law' to those hearing it and incurred capital punishment for non-adherence.

Still, nowhere is there a law that forbids looking back when fleeing from a city. Lot’s wife did not do anything forbidden according to these laws.

I think, the command given to Lot and his family can be called as 'command' - but not law. Since there did not exist a divine legal system before Mosaic law, God gave commandments and framed decrees as an when needed. But then, its my opinion- Such a command that forbids looking back when fleeing from a city was not needed anytime before the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. The situation in Sodom and Gomorrah prompted God to give such a seemingly unusual command with unusual punishment for non-adherence. If i'm right, God never again gave such a command neither did not punish anyone the way he punished Lots wife.

I have problems with this. It is not likely that Lot and his wife were aware that this was being said by an angel.

Not sure whether they believed they were angels or mere men, but reading Lot's reply in Gen 19:18 seems that he believed what the angels told them, and Lots action in Gen. 19:14 suggests that he took the message of Sodom's destruction seriously. Did Mrs. Lot take it seriously? Doesn't seem so.

The fact that Lot called the angels lords does not imply that he thought they were more than just men. Sara also called Abraham her lord (1 Peter 3:6).

Lot and his family actually saw the angels blinding the men who came to Lots door asking for sexual favors. This must have made them realize they are more than just men. In fact, in Gen 19:14, Lot went to his Son-in-Laws and told them that "LORD is about to destroy the city." This implies that Lot believed that the message those men brought was in fact from God and diligently told these to his sons in law.

In my opinion, Lot’s wife has been being punished while not having violated any law or commandment from God.

The men told them not to look back, but she did. She broke a command (not law), given by God through these men, and paid for it. For me, Lot believed that those men were messengers of God, but as those events tell, Lot's wife was careless in this and did not take them seriously.