Posts by nibbled

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Tammy, I'm sort of stunned.

You may be the first person who believes as I do.

I'm stunned.

I'm wondering, did I miss something. Some parentheses of thought?

I don't think so, your mention of Israel is distinct and contrasted against the great multitude, thus you must accept them as flesh descendants of the tribe.

Not all are kings and priests, yup. They turned down the offer, from Christ and then from Peter. 144,000 will, and some may come in through the great crowd, but that is the remnant, no matter how we look at it.

Bride is of Israel, the body of the Groom is made up of all nations, as you would expect that his household would be, as he is King of the world!

The marriage brings all things into unity into one family, one household ruling in heaven.

And… drum roll please, so you also believe that back on earth those who were promised the land, and the earth, will receive just that, no more than they were promised, but much less than they could have obtained, if only they'd had faith…!?

Wow. I've thought I was alone. I really truly started to believe I might have been the only person who believed the scriptures as written! I've been mocked for it, and driven to tears, by my dad (though he's a witness).

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

AGuest, I'm glad that we have the forum of writing because I can't imagine doing this in person. I'd get so excited and we'd probably both spontaneously combust (into 12 personalities?) hehe

Okay, so I feel like I'm getting "your Lord" whose words jump straight out of your mouth. I'm trying to get to your mind to your heart and ask you to engage with me. I don't need to connect to my Father or his Son though any other person, thus, I'm interested in you. Your heart, the soil on which the seeds are planted. I want to get to know you, which is love, but all I'm getting from you is what your Lord told you.

I often fear that people will take my inquiries and feel offense, I am so happy that that seems not to be happening with us. Because I am very interested and am searching for the words to elicit the response. Thank you for allowing me.

I am asking you—you reason with me that your Lord told you that the spelling of all this things begin with "J". Then you went on to speak about "when those scribes, who determined that God's name was too sacred to utter, let alone write," and how it is that they altered names—So, I'm asking you, or if you so desire, even your Lord through you—why is it that cares about what the scribes did to his word, if he would choose to use something that wasn't even used when the scribes did their work?

In other words, why would he use the letter "J" to represent his name (which predates scribes) and then explain to you about how scribes screwed things up?

So, starting with the name of the MOST Holy One of Israel... JAHVEH... which is taken from the spelling "JHVH" (and not "YHWH")

AGuest, I cannot wrap my head around how it is that he would wait until the 13th century C.E. to have his name be able to rendered.

The "J" came to be in the 13th century.

That doesn't make any sense.

So, please ask him or explain to me why use a letter which didn't exist?

Or, please, before the letter "J" existed, what letter did he tell you was there, when the name was transliterated? His Son was fluent in Aramaic Greek and Hebrew, what would he have written?

Please, ask him, to be clear, how was his name transliterated from the original Hebrew to the original Latin alphabet, the old Latin alphabet, and the classical Latin alphabet?

Forgive me for pressing so hard, but before I can accept your 17th century truth, I'm asking how it is that you or your Lord explains what his name was for the previous 2,400 years. (Latin alphabet dates from 7th century BC, as I understand.)

So, right now, I'm not interested in more and more of what he says, because he sounds like a voice you're hearing which is explaining to you what the scribes did 2500 years ago, but then tells you how to spell his name using letters only hundreds of years old.

Just ask him how his Son spelled his name while he was on earth?

I'm sorry, but since I can pronounce the name, and know all the letters used to represent it from Hebrew to Latin and Greek, I'm not really concerned with 17th century English.

Please, with all due respect.

Part of me right now is simply evaluating if I should listen to what comes from your mouth, as you claim to speak as a prophet and yet what you say is not valid in antiquity.

Further our Father wishes us to know him, and in the truest sense that is to seek truth from it's first utterances. Thus, while my Father nor his Son speak to me audibly, from generation upon generation through the hands of many fallible humans scribes and heresies, down to modern history and burning at the stake and translating the word so it have so many subtle variances, what remains true is that we were told to dig as if searching for hid treasure.

The 17th century English, bastardization of Babel, isn't sufficient for my desire to know ??????.

Just cause his name starts with a "J" and ends with an "n"

Moving forward, I now realize I have no idea what you call your Lord, the man commonly referred to as "Jesus"...?

So you call him the Christ, I see.

That's a Greek title, Christos.

You're okay with that?

Why are you not okay with his Greek name then?

IEOUS became JESUS.

You are okay with I becoming Y becoming J in the dilution of linguistics since Babel, but you're not okay with the same progression when applied to his Son's name?

Why his the Son's name more precious than the Father's?

I'm sorry, dear one, but that's really all I CAN give you

I respect that you hear voices, and I am grateful to you that you respect me testing your spirit to see if it comes from our Father.

I am however, not asking for what your spirit says, while my spirit doesn't speak to me in audible voices, I have access to him directly—therefore, I do not need you to tell me "the truth". I can go directly to the Father through his Son via the holy spirit to be taught, just as you can. Therefore I am here only and simply to know you, my sister.

Thus, you can, if you are willing or if your spirit is willing, give me more. I am not asking for your spirit to speak, I'm asking for your heart, or your mind. Our Father examines our hearts, and knows our minds, therefore there must be something in there—I would like to know what is in yours.

Just like the soil which the seed falls upon may be many different conditions, and it isn't just one upon which fruit may be cultivated, what we learn from the holy spirit from whom we are taught (unless you encounter an unholy spirit) settles into our hearts and minds.

That is what I am desperately, now, attempting to access. I want to know you. Please let me in?

Okay, so you quote Jeremiah 31. If you believe the word of God, then you cannot take those verses out of their context. There is a reference in the chapter where he gave us witnesses. You're a lawyer, could you please review the contract of Jeremiah 31, and review the clauses and it's intent with it's original dates. Then, please, can you tell me that you qualify as one of the parties as expressly and explicitly stipulated?

I only refer to the Bible for those who still need to see what I share "in writing"... because they are still walking by SIGHT... rather than by FAITH.

Before I'm allowed to take in knowledge from a third party from the voice of a spirit I do not know, I am required to test that spirit. Testing that spirit requires that what the spirit says stands up to the written and fleshly Word of God.

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Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Heya Tammy I just scrolled up and saw that I must have been posting when you were. I missed your first message.

Yup. Jacob is Israel, but he's not an Israelite. He's the father of the Israelites.

I know it seems like such a small nuance to not worry about, but it seems that there is terrible violence done to the scriptures or word of God through "death by a thousand papers cut".

I'd like to discuss topics such as the multitude of nations that would come to be of Abraham and Sarah. The wonder I have that God has managed, by fact, not fiction, to have a fulfillment that is both literal and figurative. The children of faith, the seed of Abraham, through adoption by spirit, fulfill the multitude of nations—but it seems since people don't recognize that the Jews are a fraction of the whole of Israel, I can't even begin to talk about that Israel was kicked out of the house but didn't die. What did they do? They spread their seed all over the sea of mankind, popping out babies like rabbits, and migrating all over the world. Judah became the Jews and we know them today. They know who they are, and we can even spot them through their common physical characteristics. We can't say the same of those of northern Israel, the ten-tribes of Hosea's prophecy.

Irony is Paul points out to those Jewish rabble rousers that Elijah was told by God that yet Israel had 7,000 elect when Elijah made the same assumption as must people I know—Israel doesn't yet exist (spiritually or literally speaking). And, Paul also points out that Hosea said that he'd have mercy on Israel, and where he said to them that they were no longer his people that he'd call them the sons of God.

After finishing my first time reading the whole scriptures 90 day marathon reading, I was wide eyed in wonder. (Though I do have small eyes, and I didn't check the mirror, I imagine I was wide-eyed!)

The story is amazing. More so, and what sent me on first a deep dive into researching over the past year the first time I've ever been anti-social in my life, was digging through the scriptures to see if what I thought I'd read was really so. Yup. It's there. Then I went to the internet to start trying to see what the world thought. I found somethings were known, but it seems only crazy kooks know them. (Not boding well for me!) Then I decided to try to figure out how to take the 66 chapter (books) of the scriptures and distill it down into a "cliff notes" version, so maybe I could have people to talk with. First bringing them up to speed, and then we could work through it together. I'm still sitting the mode of — oh, my God! is it really so?!

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Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Hi @tec!

Have you ever heard of people referring to "the true Church", or as being "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Jews" even though they are not of Jewish or Israelite descent? The "true Church" is the theory that Christians replace Israel; Israel had to suffer all the punishments, but if they were promised any blessing, those belong to "the true Chruch".

I don't believe the theory. Though as far as I have found, each denomination of Chrisitanity teaches their variation.

Did God reject his people? No.

Paul said, "God forbid!" Romans 11:1, in some translations. :)

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Up top is Abraham. We are his adopted kids, as we are faithful children and he is the Father of Faith.

Abraham is not Israel.

Down here are the children of Israel. Later they become two separate kingdoms: Judah and Israel.

I believe that all Israel is saved because after all the adopted children are accounted for, then the partial hardening is lifted and the punishment is lifted off the errant children.

I don't usually mention this because it seems to muck up the whole thing, since most people don't even recognize a distinction between the Jews and the Israelites, but I also happen to believe that dispersed Israelites also became Christians and were present in the first century congregations. Their forefather's didn't worship in Judah, but they were raised with the same stories of the patriarchs and that one day the "Messiah called Christ" would come.

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Sorry about the large paragraph breaks, I use a tool that apparently converts it into double when I paste it into the reply.

Pterist, do you believe Abraham is a Jew? Or an Israelite?

Do you believe any of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, were?

Who is the root, if you were to name it as a person or persons? I've assumed it's Abraham (as we are his seed by faith) or Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the patriarchs of the family faith.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not Jews or Israelites, just Hebrew. So at best the root of the vine is Hebrew.

Now, Christ was the promised branch, the true vine.

"Jews have not accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, they seem to be cut off, they're like branches of an olive tree that are cut off. And the Gentiles, who are not natural branches of the olive tree, have been grafted in their place. That means that they're part of Israel now."

Funny, I wrote about this, but I'm more inclined to write fresh. I'll go later to see if I can find it. I started the blog so I had an easier way to find stuff. I have notes everywhere—emails, Evernote, Notes app, etc.

Soooo…

That means that they're part of Israel now.

I believe that the root is not Israel. It is either "faith" or Abraham. Jesus was the promised branch, the true vine. He was a vine or branch, not the root. Israel's twelve tribes were the branches, and ten branches were pruned right away, then even more later. Then we were grafted in.

A hardening happened upon a part of Israel (some accepted the Messiah), and that hardening which is still upon them will be lifted, and thus all Israel will be saved. But first, he's letting us all get in on the good's. The opportunity lasts until the "full number" come in. After we have, "as it is written" then "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob." That's not us, that's them—the hardened ones. And there will be a covenant with them (they had an old covenant and they will get a new covenant, but they're not apart of THE new covenant, they missed that opportunity because they were hardened). And well, at that point Paul points out that we can go read the new covenant that happens for the hardened now softened people in Isaiah. There's no "coming to know and learning to love Jehovah". Nope. (Isa 59:20,21)

All Israel is saved because after he's done gathering us, he's going to go back to dealing with them. Not because he's renamed us Israel.

I feel passionately about my understanding, but I am very much seeking to understand what everyone believes to understand why what I "see" is so different. I can "see" it so clearly, but it's so different than what feels like EVERYONE else!

I like the AMP version of the scriptures, but sometimes their theology is wrong. It seems pretty spot on for Romans 11. They are clear that Jews were the ones present when Messiah came, and all other parenthetical details. Check it out? My belief is not based on it. I don't really read one version. I am mostly in the interlinears. Call it distrust I learned from my upbringing. I want to know what it really says! :)

I just finished reading the rest of that post—I'd forgotten in responding that this was a Yale class. I bet that teacher would hate me. All the teachers I ever had loved me because I never asked questions and always knew the answer. I've never been in this kind of spot before!

Thanks Pterist! Feed me more! I've been starving!

As for the rest of the post —

Paul isn't starting a new religion. He's doing quite the opposite. God gave the Law to Israel. Israelites ignored it, Jews turned it into a religion. Christ fulfilled it and said keep it simple: ten commandments. Paul reinforces Christ's "new wine" definition of worship—I completed the sacrifice requirement, now love each other, drink wine and eat bread together and remember me. Keep doing this till I come back. Oh, and you're going to miss me when I'm gone. (hehe)

Christian is a word that only appears twice in the scriptures.

to bring them into Israel to make the Gentiles part of Israel .

Prove it. This is the point that I've never been able to prove. It's just a Christian theory.

If I had a tree I could demonstrate. I am picturing a little movie of a tree. The arrow points at the root, and labels it "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or the Father's of the Promise of Faith" (the seed that was planted first made roots). Then it would show the branches. Twelve. Ten then are Israel, and two then are Judah (by tribes). After the branches have their little twigs growing off of them you strip away most of the branches. (It was only a partial hardening. Israelites the land but they didn't die. They end up later in places like Roma, Galatia, Corinth...) Then you graft in (grab some super glue or duct tape) new branches representing all the nations, tribes, people and tongues. Incidentally to actually graft you attach it to the stock or base of the tree/vine. You can't graft a branch to a branch.

He was definitely the most radical Jewish theologian. He redefined what Jewish Christians understood of the old covenant scriptures.

However, the story of how this all happens isn't news, its just still isn't understood. It's written in the old covenant scriptures.

Hitting send. I can, and am incrediably passionate to continue this discussion. I'm mostly interested in what—if anything—caught anyones curiousity, made them blink or think twice, whince, react in any kind of way, or what questions arise.

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

@EntirelyPossible is your "oh?" directed towards the compliment or the laws which govern? :)

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

@cofty Let me see if I can clarify. I'm always working on clarity! I believe Paul's salutation spoke to the congregation; to him the congregation is neither Jew nor Greek. I studied Paul's letters and recall an inductive reasoning book I loved on it called "Apostle on the Edge". It did a great job of quickly summarizing what the culture of the time looked like. As we recall Israel was booted from the land long before Judah, many Israelites (10-tribes) were in the areas where Paul visited and became a part of the Christian congregation. There were also others in the community who were interested and joined the congregation. "Gentile" (goyim) as people of the nations is a designation meaning pretty much everyone under the sun, besides Jews (of the kingdom of Judah)—including Israelites (of the then former northern kingdom of Israel). I believe Paul was chastising the Jews in the congregation and the Christians who were falling for their schtick. Christians are a new creation—the body of Christ—and circumcision of the flesh is not a requirement of membership in the body. Flesh is the old covenant, spirit is the new covenant.

All those in faith are children of Abraham. Even if we are blood and flesh descent, it's about faith and spirit to be his seed. For those who not blood and flesh we are adopted as a family adopts children from other nations today—picture Angelina Jolie and all her kids.

Abraham was not part of Israel, nor was it his family name. He wasn't Jewish either. Therefore to some how leap from being Abraham's children (whether Jewish, Israelite or any other descent in the world) to being Jewish/Israelite is simply not possible. You'd skip generations. Abraham begat Isaac, also not a Jew or Israelite, Isaac begat Jacob, also not a Jew or Israelite, and then Jacob became a guy named Israel and had kids—his kids were Israelites… Later some of those kids, by culture, became Hellene, Scythian, barbarian, etc.

I don't think Paul is confusing, I think that most people I've found ignore the context and just make it apply them instead.

For fun (I know, terrible) I went through Paul's letters and cut it all up—clearly marking who he was speaking to, or when he referenced the prophets, what was the context of the prophets quotations used—who were they speaking to? How did that change? Between knowing the culture at that time and shaking my head out of "spiritual Jews" and "spiritual Israel" non-sense it made total sense. But I can't quite seem to figure out how to share that with others. Why can't we see the same thing? What am I missing?

@Prerist Funny timing. I had just looked in the mirror before reading this and I was all red. But I'm not quite sure if I even know how to understand what the point is that you're seeking for me to understand. I'm sorry. I'll keep reading.

Shalom with a wink. That's funny. Was it intended as your segue into your next post?—brilliant!

Shalom— "Peace, even to the Israel of God".

If I were writing the toddlers story time version of the scriptures I would translate this as, "treats for everyone, even the kids who creating all the ruckus today [and were in time out]!"

The Israel of God comment concludes his argumentation against the Legalist Judaizers that wanted the Christians to get circumcised.

I was just wondering, I don't know offhand—when was this letter written as compared to when King Agrippa designated us Christians? Was it even a word yet? I have to go look at home. Christian isn't used in the book of Galatians at all. Amplified version uses it in it's "amplification". I hadn't gone to read their rendering of this letter. Wonder what their amplification implies as to their theology?

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=christian&version1=AMP&searchtype=all&spanbegin=55&spanend=55&resultspp=500

Regarding the Grafting, I'll find what I wrote about that and post. I hope you'll stay around to respond!

Hi @Blondie! I'll have to add that to my to read list. I'm pretty sure that there's a very very short list of things that I believe that are on a WT list. I find it irksome to try to think about it as it just reminds me of how far I feel from my family and love. :)

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Pterist this is meant to be provoking, but not sarcastic...

"I have a new iPad to sell you."

You get home, and then, see if you're happy after paying Apple retail price, plus tax, for that new iPad and you find out that it's "new" the way you describe "new".

You'd be great in marketing, but you'd have to be careful, we have pretty strict laws in the United States which govern truth in advertising.

Thoughts? Pretty please?

Also, if my post doesn't make sense, let me know. [Imagine when you get home you pull it out of the box and you find fingerprints on the screen, a ding on the edge and someone else's email address already setup on it.]

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

"israel of God." If a Christian organization frequently refers to its members by this term, it is a warning that it is not fully Christian but part spiritually Jewish. If that's what you want, fine. If you want pure Christianity, however, look elsewhere.

WTWizard I agree. I'm not a part of any organization, I have a head in heaven. It's funny though because that head is a spiritual Jew by birth, and fully Christian. But he says that there is no way to get to the Father except through him, so I—finally—believe him and the other guy who said there's only one mediator, as he also said that it's not Paul or Apollos, but God that matters. I go accept the Jewish-Christian head in heaven who is the only means to get to the Father and thus, its just the three of us. :)

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