Posts by nibbled

34

Came clean to the wife and all is good!

by Comatose in

i have been reading steven hassan's books as well studying like never before.

my wife has seen the amount studying i am doing, just hasnt known what all subjects instudy.

over the last few weeks i've slowly shared certain things.

nibbled

@Comatose It's so great you can discuss with her! I would love to have someone to study the scriptures with!

Remember that you have the desire to study the scriptures, and faith that you will be given the answers for the questions that arise. I promise you, as one who stumbled into similar questions, if not many of the same. Each time it was like a tiny test—I could either pray with faith that he'd help me understand and find the 'answer', or I could immediately feel a tiny chink in my armour as if the blow chipped the tiniest piece away.

I too noted (when reading through start to finish) that God told Moses he'd never yet revealed his name, but then it was used through out the first five books of the scriptures. Moses wrote all those books, and they're often referred to as "the books of Moses". He didn't write them as journal he carried around writing each night as things occured, but as a memoir written telling the story while he was looking back—so he used the name he knew, even though in the story it wasn't introduced yet to him chronologically speaking. Remember, while it's inspired, it's also ancient literature!

There's one question I was most fascinated by the answer. It has to do with his death and the sign above his head, what it read, and the time of day. The answer has to do with the cultural context of the accounts. Roman time as opposed to Hebrew time (what "time" is mid-day for each of those cultures?). It has to do with the sign when first written, the sign when attached to the stake, the sign when the stake was put up. I don't remember the distinct points, but if you're interested I'll go figure it out to write it up to study with you and your wife?

Have faith and keep constant in prayer. It's a moment of vulnerability. Those who have faith end up with answers that strengthen their faith like nothing they've ever experienced, and are aided to see the richness of the stories—the tapestry of the scriptures. Others end up with more questions, no faith, and a harder heart than head, it seems. You can either give into your fear, or be fearless and faithful. Seek and ye shall find! Have fun! Welcome to the treasure hunt! :)

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

"heis, kyrios, mia pistis, hen baptisma."

Can we do question and answer? I'm really trying to get at the root of the discourse and thought process here.

In the Hebrew Scriptures the name Baal (Ba'al: H1168) appears approximately 80 times. The verb baal (to marry, rule over: H1166) appears approximately 15 times. The masculine noun, baal (owner, lord: H1167) appears approximately 84 times.

It is used just once in the Christian Greek scriptures of the new covenant.

Where does that one instance appear? In what context is this reference? Who were the subject of the quote? To whom was the quoted addressed to in the letter? (Romans 11:4)

We'll come back to this...

When Sarah referred to Abraham, she called him her "adoni". (Hebrew, the "i" following the word shows possessive, as in "my".)

However, to say she called him her Lord is to miss the point of our Father's prophecy to Hosea entirely.

“And she shall pursue her lovers but not overtake them, and shall seek them but not find them. Then she shall say, ‘Let me go and return to my first husband, for then it was better for me than now.’

“And now I shall uncover her shame before the eyes of her lovers, and no one shall deliver her from My hand. “And I shall cause all her rejoicing, her festivals, her New Moons, and her Sabbaths, even all her appointed times, to cease, and lay waste her vines and her fig trees, of which she has said, ‘these are my rewards that my lovers have given me.’ And I shall make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

“And I shall punish her for the days of the Ba?als to which she burned incense and adorned herself with her rings and jewelry, and went after her lovers, and forgot Me,” declares ????.

“Therefore, see, I am alluring her, and shall lead her into the wilderness, and shall speak to her heart, and give to her vineyards from there, and the Valley of A?or as a door of expectation. And there she shall respond as in the days of her youth, as in the day when she came up from the land of Mitsrayim.

“And it shall be, in that day,” declares ????, “that you call Me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Ba?al.’

“And I shall remove the names of the Ba?als from her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

“And I shall take you as a bride unto Me forever, and take you as a bride unto Me in righteousness, and in right-ruling, and kindness and compassion.

“And I shall take you as a bride unto Me in trustworthiness, and you shall know ????.

“And it shall be in that day that I answer,” declares ????, “that I answer the heavens, and they answer the earth, and the earth answer the grain and the new wine and the oil, and they answer Yizre?el.

“And I shall sow her for Myself in the earth, and I shall have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion.

And I shall say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people,’ while they say, ‘My Elohim!’ ” (Hosea 2:7, 10-17, 19-23 ISR98)

Now, I said we'd go back to the context of the only instance of "Baal" being rendered in the Christian Greek scriptures.

Where does that one instance appear? Romans 11:4.

In what context is this reference? Consider the outline of Romans 2-11.

The Jews and the Law
God's Faithfulness, Despite the Unfaithful
No One is Righteous through Law
Righteousness through Faith
Abraham Justified by Faith
Righteous Apart from Works
Abraham Justified before Circumcision
Abraham the Father of Faith
The Father of Many Nations
Sorrow for the Nation of Israel
Chosen Remnant of Israel
Israel's Blindness
Until the Fullness of the Nations

Who were the subject of the quote? Elijah, speaking about the Israelites of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

To whom was the quoted addressed to in the letter? The Jews who were pushing conversion to Judaism on the Christians.

There are multiple threads I've got going on here, and you've been on most if not all of them. Maybe you'll have noted that for me, like Band on the Run speaks the bigger picture, these topics aren't separate but intertwined.

I believe that there are those among us who are of Israel, but not in the "spiritualized" sense as Pterist, BobCat, and I have been exploring together, but I truly believe that we are those who were spoken of as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

Paul was fighting for us. What I haven't introduced here as of yet is that in that congregation there were likely Jews from Judah, people who were once from Israel but after being cast out as apostates were known as people of the nations (goyim) and there were other people of other nations. There was, and is, and will always be, Israel, Judah, and the rest of the body of believers.

I probably shouldn't even confuse this dicussion right now, but I suppose the point I'm making, perhaps in a Paul like manner??, is that the people in the context of the ONLY mention of Baal weren't Jews, but Israelites. And Paul points out that even Israel would be called, as the people of the nations, and that they would be redeemed as Hosea had prophesied.

And what did Hosea prophesy regarding those "my people"? It brings us back to those who would no longer refer to their God as "my baal" but rather "my husband".

Now, please note, I'm not making conjecture here but rather stating it as it was written. He said she (his people Israel) would no longer "my baal" (baal'i) but "my man" (ish'i). He said he would remove the names of the Baal's (baalim) from her mouth, and betroth her to him forever.

“Yet the number of the children of Yisra’el shall be as the sand of the sea, which is not measured nor counted. And it shall be in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they shall be called, ‘You are the sons of the living El.’ “And the children of Yehu?ah and the children of Yisra’el shall be gathered together, and appoint for themselves one head, and shall come up out of the earth, for great is the day of Yizre?el! (Hosea 1:10, 11 ISR98)

There are so many play on words going on in Hosea, it's beautiful! Great is the day of Yizre?el for the children of Yisra’el and the children of Yehu?ah!

“And I shall sow her for Myself in the earth, and I shall have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion. And I shall say to those who were not My people, ‘You are My people,’ while they say, ‘My Elohim!’ ” (Hosea 2:23 ISR98)

The "her" is Yisra’el, not Yehudah.

Now, the people of Israel — who we do not know how to identify today, but you can be sure they exist, even as the scriptures say that they themselves don't know that they are the children of Israel — are the ones who will no longer use call their God their "baal".

The research into defining the use of "baal" in Hosea (chapter 2) indicates Israel in their apostate state referred to their god as Baal as they fornicated in the high places.

Now, for me, personally, what spoke to me is that "baal" is translated "lord" and we know "lord" has taken over the proper name of our Father, and his Son. But we don't talk about "baal". And well, as you point out, "lord" isn't "baal". Because when someone started translating from Hebrew and Greek to English they made the choice to translate both "baal", "adonai", and "kyrios" into "lord".

And they rendered the name of YHWH (Yehowah; Jehovah, JHVH, et al.) as "the LORD".

Thus, referring to the Creator of the world, and his Son the savior, became the lowest common denominator—the personal name of the highest false god.

You mentioned that you are of the bride. I am not refuting your claim, just offering clarity for those who may be interested for their personal sake, the variables involved.

The bride of Lamb is clearly his 144,000 chosen—and sealed—who stand with him at Revelation 14:1, which seems to coincide with Isaiah 4:5 (under the chuppah). She is of his family, as the history of brides chosen in ancient times were. She was chosen out of those given to him, as he never lost anyone given into his hand. She is the 12,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel, and those distinctive cultural elements of her people, including the twelve apostles out of Israel, adorn her as the new city of peace founded by God. (See definition of Jeru-Salem.)

The body of Christ is the whole of those bought from the earth, who were all bought from the earth to reign as a kingdom of Kings and Priests. This is both the 144,000 and the great multitude. While the 144,000 are distinct, she is also a part of his body, as his betrothed wife, and a part of his household. The great multitude are of Abraham their father, who was promised to be the father of a great multitude of nations, which is inclusive of any who believe in his seed, including members of Israel and Judah. Neither Jew nor Greek (Hellene), nor Scythian nor Barbarian, free nor slave, are distinctions in the body of Christ. We are all one.

The body of Christ however, is distinct from the Lamb. The bride is of the Lamb, not the body of Christ. The wedding is based in the customs of his culture. The sheep and the lamb, and the shepherd are all distinct to the writings of Israel.

However, the Christ is the Lamb, sacrificed, and who is raised to become the shepherd, the one head appointed over the children of Judah, the children of Israel, and who reigns with his chosen family, bought out of the earth, both his bride and his body as one family, in one household, fellow citizens in the New Jerusalem above, which decends to reign upon the earth.

Please see: http://www.exaltednamebible.com/exalted-name/other-names/lord-master/

I don't know how to get through to you AGuest. You asserted being enlighted, chosen, spoken to, and spoken for, yet you cannot seem to hear?

Can you not hear me please? I speak softly, kindly. My Father, the spirit of his son which he sent into my heart, the spirit of truth his son sent to be my companion and helper, and the communion among the members of the body of Christ where when two or more meet there he is in their presence is something which is not foreign to me. The only concept foriegn to my experience is audibly hearing external to my flesh a voice. Perhaps I've been mistaken in my understanding of your personal expression—are you hearing his voice within you, or hearing—a word associated with flesh and literal and audible, external and not of the spirit?

I'm posting this two days after having written it. I was busy this weekend!

I think, perhaps if you can see into the wonderful world I see — you'll see the story underneath the story, you can see, as the scriptures tell us the spirit shows us the things to come. (John 16:13) It's important to respect and not "spiritualize" the distinctions in the scriptures. Israel, then Israel and Judah, Jews and Christians, and finally Israel and Christians. There will be a time, and that time may even be now, when the children of Israel will be gathered rousing out of blindness as if waking from sleep, a dream that spanned more than 50 generations.

When they awaken, with eyes with which they may see, and with ears with which to hear, they as Hosea prophesies will no longer have the name of the Baal's upon their lips, and "Afterward the children of Israel shall return, and seek Yehowah ???? their God, and David their king, and shall come with trembling to Yehowah ???? and to his blessings in the last days."

My heart gets funny when I think about those children. I love them as if they were my family. I want to find them, meet them, talk to them.

Since there seems no way to do that, I just go about my time waiting for the due time to arrive, telling the stories my Father told me (through the scriptures).

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

Uh oh. There are warts!? :)

I didn't notice the spelling, I knew what you meant, and either way, I basically just know both words as the idea of explaining or examing scriptures.

I do have an iPad/iPhone and know what you mean. I'm not gonna pick on people for that! It was more the idea.

I learned that there are technical terms like "type" and "hermetics" (was the the word?) or whatever, but when I considered learning all that in my study of scripture, two things hit me. One, it's not how Christ explained it, and two, that would be like going to school and I'm not that interested in that kind of discussion. Like Christ, I find myself drawn to "the people" over the academics. When I read "academic" works it generally makes me have to read three times over to understand because it's so busy sounding smart... and then I think how few people even have the luxury! Ugh. Nope. I'll stay more childlike in my acceptance of the kingdom!

So you'll end up noticing a lack of those words in my writing, simply for the fact they're not in my vocabulary, and you'll have to forgive me if I miss a point that would have been clear had I bothered to learn the words.

I do however adore the parables, and they are beautiful! They tell precisely, in order, the story. The story of the man with his vineyard and sending the men who they kept killing. (Acts 7:52) The story of the virgins when the bridegroom comes for the bride. (1 Cor 15:23,51,52; 1 Thess 4:15-17) The story of the wedding feast the King prepares for his son but the guests who weren't properly attired to attend. (Rev 7:14)

So I guess what I'm saying is that I understand that some things have signifigance as parables which reveal kingdom truth, but I don't "spiritualize" anything. The prophecies of the old covenant (see the difference that using covenant means there) will come true, I believe, not because they come "spiritually" true (or in a "spiritualized" sense), but literally true.

Another way to put it is that most Christians appear to take what is yet to be fulfilled of the old covenant prophecies, ignore that they are OLD COVENANT, and apply them in a SPIRITUALIZED manner to the NEW covenant.

In a math equation, when solving the problem, if you do something to one side you have to do the same to the other.

Say you have 4 of 25 and you want to figure out percent. You could multiply both sides by 4 ending up with 16 of 100. Then I would imagine that 4 of 25 is 16%. The point? If you don't do the same operation to both sides you cannot come to the correct conclusion.

Thus, when our Father sent his prophets to Israel and Judah and let them prophesy all these prophecies to both nations... what did it mean to them? Was it only going to come true in a SPIRITUALIZED sense? No, they believed him, both for the good and bad, when they believed. The bad happened immediately and came true, not in a spiritual sense, but literally.

Thus, the finale of the prophecies of the old covenant should be true literally as well.

If you have Jewish friends who have kept the Law, as faithfully as we try to keep following Christ, then perhaps you'll consider this story and see what I saw?...

Jeremiah 35 is the chapter about the "faithful Recabites". Jeremiah was to go to them where they lived, invite them to the temple, then offer them wine.

Now, what does wine symbolize for us?

Jeremiah tells God, "I set cups and jugs of wine before them and invited them to have a drink, but they refused."

Yet, God tells him, "‘Jehonadab son of Recab will always have descendants who serve me.’"

Why? (Please go read for yourself, YouVersion.com has every version but the NWT basically! It's quick, share it with me!)

It's a fascinating story. It was literally true, and it reveals truth in symbols as well. But does it mean the conclusion won't literally be, but only spiritually speaking, true?

No! God's word never lies.

So from this story I immediately (when reading straight through) though of my Jewish girlfriend who invited me once to her Sadar (I attended). She keeps the Laws, I don't know to what extent, because I couldn't judge. But she's Jewish and joyous and keeping faithful with all her heart—and I imagine that it is her and her family which will see the fulfillment of the old prophecies.

The likelihood of her coming to accept Christ as the Messiah before his return is low. But will her faithfulness not be rewarded? Of course! There are OLD COVENANT rewards, and there are NEW covenant rewards. She'll have missed out on the opportunity to be in the new covenant and the hope it holds for heaven. But she'll receive rich rewards when she does recognize the Messiah at his return, and realizes that he was and is the Christ (don't you love how they gave us language which makes it clear?!) and will receive the rewards due to her through the old covenant promises.

Thus Abraham and Sarah will have children shine in heaven as numerous as the stars, and on earth as numerous as the sand of the sea.

They'll be in the sky like stars, but won't be stars, they'll be on the earth like sand, but not be sand.

Does all this make sense? (I see the differences like spiritual, figurative, literal, symbolic, etc) I don't know how to bring people into what I've been seeing.

When he took Abram out to see the stars, I went with him out of the tent and looked up with him. (Like the way the Princess Bride movie unfolds out of the grandfather reading the book to his grandson.) Him looking up into the deep dark blue and all the twinkling stars. (Yeah, I put the keyword in there, with a twinkling of my eye!) He probably didn't imagine that his children would be up there like stars in the sky. No, if he believed that, IF, then it was because that belief (from faith) was given to him, not because it came from his own mind (not imagined).

Further, while we don't have Israelites (of 10-tribe northern kingdom) around which we can identify to talk to, we know that the Jews still pray for their brothers (Israel/Ephraim) return in their rituals. The Jews still believe, despite Christians stealing their prophecies and saying that they'll be 'spiritually' fulfilled in Christendom, by spiritual Jews and spiritual Israel (i.e Christians), that they will see the fulfillment of the prophecies... to return to their land, to rest, in peace in the land. They have never dreamed of going to heaven, they've always believed in paradise earth. (But the Christians are busy trying to snatch up all rewards, they're supposed to be in heaven, not on earth! Oh, the Christian Pharisees!)

That's what's funny about Jehovah's Witnesses. They're more of a Jewish perspective than a Christian one. Old Covenant hope is the paradise, New Covenant is the heaven.

But what are you going to do? Speaking of them, these words seem so apropos, "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door to the kingdom from heaven in people's faces. You don't go in yourselves, and you don't allow those who are trying to enter to go in."

Trying to tie this back to the thread topic, the Israel of God may produce people who were of the old covenant but become (still can! limited time only! offer available in all states. void any who prohibit it.) of the new covenant. The Israel of God is those of the old covenant, and in the one time that it was written in scripture, it refers to those Jewish Christians of the old covenant who were in the presence of the new covenant and were trying to get new covenant people to become old covenant too. But you can't be in two places at once, can you?

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

AGuest Thank you for taking all the time to respond.

Here's the thing. I don't trust your spirit that teaches you, which leaves me reticent and wary on listening (hearing) what you speak.

I'm upset because I was and still am very much looking forward to conversing with you. But I have the difficulty testing the spirits (in this case yours) to see if they are from God. Honestly, I've never had to do it before. Normally there isn't anyone who seems to be interacting in spirit—which I am seeking out such ones. You obviously are, but then it comes to discerning from the wealth of knowledge you offer, if it is founded in the spirit of truth.

I typed out a post and then, bam, it was gone. So disheartening, because I was complete offering you links and such.

Maybe the devil did it , maybe the spirit wanted me to write a straight forward and simple post after all the thought I had worked through , or maybe it was just Chrome crashing. I know better. I should have been writing offline. Even now I'm writing in the post box and could lose this one too!

So, honey, I'm not going to be convinced to use the sound nor letter which didn't exist in ancient Semitic times nor languages. I prefer to seek out my Father and to know how to say and write (even if transliteration) his name as he presented it to Moses.

You confuse me in circular reasoning. First offering the Y is just the sound the the new J is, then say that you use J because the Y isn't the right sound. All I know is my Father and his Son both predate the alphabet which carries the J, and that the sound that letter carries is a new invention across the world, and the only way to get it in Hebrew is to use a gimmel with a specific vowel point. So the sound would dictate spelling the Hebrew name different at that point.

Yehowah is the name I came to learn by going to my Father directly in prayer, and taking what I knew from the scriptures in prayerful consideration. It had felt like such an easy "game" —"hang man" — and I marveled at how simple it was. How do we think we do not know, I think for we do not! Yosephus gave a clue which puts a secular stamp of approval on it, but that's just a bow on what was simply there for those who seek it from the scriptures.

If this weren't so much about what you were told from your spirit, as I had hoped to enjoy sharing with you, playing, in the word of God, as it were, then we could (and still can) work through the steps together. I'm interested if there's anything else I can learn by sharing what I've learned from/in the spirit of truth with others so that they can share and learn and teach me more. But the letter "J" is a step in the wrong direction. If you're interested, I'm still interested, but I'm so over "J". I study ancient languages, and the roots of linguistics and love etymologies. I can't be stuck in recent history, it's a bore to me. I'm a child who keeps asking my Father, each time I learn something, "why?"

So, I'm aware that the Black God Music uses Jahveh, but not of anyone who actually studies Hebrew or speaks it.

The second reason I come to the point were I do not trust your spirit, as it does not seem that he comes from the Father or speaks from the Word of Truth, is that you call him "my Lord".

The book of Zephaniah is about removing the remnants of Baal, and chapter 3 mentions the purification of the lips so that his people can worship him standing shoulder-to-shoulder. If you just read the opening of chapter 1, then read chapter 3 it'll set the scene for what I'm offering you for consideration. (I know that you offer scripture only for those who walk by sight, but at least we can agree that it's a source of truth from God.)

Hosea chapter 2:16,17 speaks of the unfaithful wife Israel (Zephaniah was Judah) and how he's going to remove the names of the Baal's out of her mouth. I imagine our Father washing her mouth out with a bar of lye soap.

He says, one day you'll no longer reduce me to the level of the baal's calling me your "my baal" while sleeping with other baals, but will instead call me 'your man'.

Let that sink in. "Your Man" is the literal translation, "husband" would be the meaning.

While adonai is the meaning you have, I'm sure, behind using the title "my Lord", I offer you the second point of my concern.

The word "lord" is translated from baal. Adonay, despite translation is not "lord". Those who are sensitive to this fact often use "Master" to translate "Adonay" be distinct from "baal". (As I never learned to say "Lord" anyway, I simply don't. It's an appellation, and I think of him as my brother who gave his life for me, not as "my master", similar to Hosea's thought.)

baal: (primitive root) to marry, rule over. from which we get baal: owner, lord, which became as Hosea's inspired words show, a proper name, Ba'al ; Baal, a Phoenician deity — Baal, (plural) Baalim.

I can't stay around right now, but perhaps this is a good place to leave off so you have food for thought. Please, think. Right now the balance of our relationship lies in what we come to as a conclusion together. Pray. If you speak to your spirit instead, then please, can you please use in this particular conversation "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" who sent his son "Christ the Messiah"? The devil will flee if we oppose him, and you are always safe. Hey, maybe he'll start teaching you earlier history. I'm not interested in the prophets of today, like Joseph Smith, or the alphabet that adorn their day. I am interested in the ones from 4,000 years ago, whose writings (scriptura) have been handed down though time, as if—hey!—inspired of God.

My mouth has been washed clean. I desire to associate with others who are either innocent, or have been washed clean. You are not innocent, you have a spirit. Thus I'm asking you to consider that spirit, and consider the scriptures, and consider why the image keeps going through my mind that you need your mouth washed out with soap.

I am not trying to offend. I'm a child in my heart and mind, and am simply offering the imagery which is best able to convey my thoughts. Storytelling.

When I speak to people who are innocent and they ask why I don't use "Jehovah", I don't dump all that we've talked about on them. I assure them that their Father knows their heart, and that if they seek him they will find him. They then are naturally curious, often worried they are using the wrong name. I assure them that we were taught, as my dad taught me, to pray to "Our Father", as his son instructed us. I explain that when I was scared when I first started learning what I had thought was the truth as a witness of Jehovah wasn't true, I learned to use "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" when I wanted to be specific.

Christ the Messiah is what the woman at the well knew that she and her people were waiting for.

As for Jah, or Jeh, please do some reading... Here's Witches, Whores, and Sorcerers: The Concept of Evil in Early Iran . Jeh or Jah "the whore" may give you light on "Let us be blood the great whore had shed" (think: menstruation) as spoken by the Word, speaking of Babylon the whore of the Medo-Persian empire. See also Religions of the Ancient World: A Guide .

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

This earthly TENT is changed to a MANSION ??

Sometimes I just feel like a naïve child. Actually I guess that doesn't quite express it, but is also true.

I've heard "exgensis" and other words you mentioned before, but they're not in my vocabulary yet.

If you can take me at my word, I'm just a kid who read the word and believed it was the Word and then believed to deny it was truth was to deny the Truth which was to deny the Christ. If you follow that and follow the capital and lower case letters (thank you for our language conventions for clarity!) I meant it as written. The key is figurative, literal, symbolic, and spiritual (not necessarily in that order).

I realized everyone spends so much time arguing about John 1:1 as the trinity and misses it's point. My Greek (former) roommate whose mother was a Trojan, and boy they were every bit of Greek as I never would have welcomed into my home had I known! (j/k, sort of) pointed out that Americans (he meant broader than that I'm sure) just don't know how the Greeks understand the verse. It reads as written without "a god" but they know what it means.

Meanwhile, we miss the point. The word was with God, and the word was God and the Word of God became flesh and lived among us. Now he's spirit... but where is he—in us.

I can't — I'm sorry. I have turned into an absolute child. I lost my daddy when I was three and spent my child hood acting as an adult. At 33 I've died to the world and am not going back. I'm a child. You can't take the Truth from me, and I believe every word he says.

Joyous tantrum aside, I'm expressing joy to you! I don't have a clue, my darling PT, what you're talking about. I know I've read all those keywords before, but since they aren't in the things I study (the books of scripture) I'm pretty much an idiot to what they mean... Should I go bother? (I ask sincerely.)

I'm not sure I want to be able to label things. I know what they mean. People just stopped respecting the word as truth. That the Word is Truth. They change it, say it means something different.

If I get confused now about a verse, I pop over to the interlinear immediately (online reading always though I now own a dozen translations) and you know what? It usually clears it up. Some guy usually change the word. Generally that's changing something regarding identity.

Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, where there can’t be Hellene * and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian ?† , Scythian ‡ , bondservant, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:10,11

That verse above is from obible.org, my personal study bible. Yes, I mean mine. It's VERY much a work in progress. It's ASV/WEB because it was public domain, and then my word for word work as I research and hit areas. And I've just started recently. So the verses above are my research. I wondered what a Scythian was. I felt like it was vaguely familiar. I learned who they were, and also realized it was familiar because there's a king of the Scythian's in my (absolutely must be believe mythological!) family tree. But the point that I found funny and was only happy to have learned after I already had the foundation under my belt of Israel vs. Judah, and Israel as dispersed people that were never accounted for in the scriptures that I could tell... was that there they were! Hellene is a Jew (or person) who has adopted the Greek language, customs or culture, despite their roots (Greek Jew, Jewish Greek?), well, and suffice to say, that the whole list he gives could be simply just speaking to various people who were formerly of Israel as a once united, now nearly entirely dispersed nation. (I always have to be clear, even so, we're still a part of the new covenant, as all nations qualify; just interesting that his list shows that there were Ephraim and Judah still to that day fighting against each other like brothers. (That is a verse much earlier in scripture which I didn't know where it applied until here...)

You said something about seeming to look for a list of topics to be correct—not sure what you mean, but no.

Right now I'm looking for friends. I want to talk about the scriptures, but not here on this forum. I want to really talk about them. To me it's a book—Genesis to Revelation. I agree with Band on the Run, it really can't be taken as a verse or chapter out of context (which he eluded to, though don't know if he means he same as I).

As a wild eyed, full of wonder child, I'm begging new friends to come play with me!

I have a story to tell. I just read this amazing book, and its the most amazing story that I've ever read. And I believe it!

I felt sure, as a naïve child, that the only reason I didn't know anyone who'd ever talked about it before was because after leaving the WT I never talked to anyone about spiritual matters, and this is new to me anyway. But I talked to them first, and no, they don't know.

I have an elder friend and his wife who are really cool. He owns a copy of the DDD (Dictionary of Demons and Deities). I tried to explain to him, I put together this: http://www.obible.org/tbb/thousandyears.htm

I read the whole book, but it was a movie. But it was a movie where the scenes go back in forth in time. What you read isn't necessarily in chronological order—no, duh! you say—but I saw it all. It was a movie and I followed the plot along. There was a lot of foreshadowing and then here's what's going to happen.

Most the books of the prophets get cut off in the middle. Most meaning the major. I haven't sat down to call them out yet. I'm looking to find friends to study with. I have the whole story, but I haven't gone down to figure out the books. I just remember it all and then do the keyword search to pull back the book.

For instance, there's a verse about the women who say to the man, Let us take your name, we'll make our own clothes and food. Then it's followed with a scene of the women of Jerusalem having been purified and God erecting a tent (chuppah! it actually says chuppah! like a Jewish wedding!) over mount zion — and i thought— well I remember that scene. That's Rev. 14:1. You'll have to do a search on bible.cc for it, I think it's Isaiah maybe? It's a short chapter.

Anyway, the story puts the prophets on hold. You might as well cut off anything written about israel after it's kicked out and put them asides as God's love letters with no mailing address. The Jews get hardened, so the prophecies about them end or conclude with Jeremiah's book. From there everything is on hold until Christ comes, but that's sort of in this middle movie of the trilogy where he comes but everyone who saw the first movie knows how it's going to go—they're going to reject him, and a remnant will believe. Then there's Paul and his ministry to the nations (which includes dispersed Israel; Jews always were mean to Israel for having been apostates; irony). His movie is a mystery style, where you learn that all the blessings the Jews thought were theirs (He's our God!) were just theirs. Only the Jews didn't get the punchline. The Christians got it, and the remnant of the Jews and Israel who believed also got in on the new covenant, body of Christ, one hope, heavenly reward—anointed.

So then (I don't know which movie we're on, 4?) the full number come in. Noticing how people act around here, and how I can't even find ONE friend in SF to talk to who believes in God, it seems there isn't anyone left to believe... er, come in— anyway when the full number comes in, then it's all time for the major events we've been building to. It's where it all comes together in crashing symbols and trumpets of a symphony performance.

One minute they're there—next it's two to a family, one from a field. (Oh, forgot there's the whole everyone in churches following that white guy on the white horse who conquers all the good hearted ones who think they're following Christ. That one kills me. It makes me feel helpless.) SO sorry, I skipped ahead. White guy on white horse conquers all the good hearts but followers, they are safely in churches. People who are bold and think they "know" are noticing that the Obama administration was called out by the crazy guy for "war on religion" while the same CNN report scrolls that Biden is headed to Israel first, then Egypt. (And some have taken the time to make this chart, because they're not good at remembering what's what.) So they think maybe Daniel's treaty of 7 years is about to be made. And about three and a half years in when they call true Nobel Peace and security...

Well, anyway, I'm getting off track and I've gotten a bit cheeky with no intent to offend my friends here. Basically about a year ago I seemed to recognize this convergence of world events and bible prophecy. I am dying to talk to people about it. I'm not a news person, know little about politics, and all I know is that it's going down.

So there's a treaty, 3.5 years of peace for the first half. Then there's 3.5 years of chaos. Its the final go round of God reminding his chosen that they aren't to rely on anyone but him. Apparently besides the devastation and rape, there will also be the temple on the mount. These things sound so absurd. Unless you have Jewish friends and know that there's a prefab (I imagine to Ezekiel's specs) temple ready for the moment that they can go pop it up. There's also a press release out there from the We Do Jewish Stuff for Antiquities and Stuff group who said they have all the utensils ready too. Meanwhile you've got Rabbi whoever who died in 2005 naming Yeshua (using YHWH Yehowah) as the Messiah. Took me a longer moment than you to realize why that was signifigant. Oh year, totally forgot. They don't believe in Jesus (as having been the Messiah). So he dies and his note is read and his son says that dad says that the Messiah said that he'd come after the Prime Minister dies. (If I recall right.) Now, I don't go around believing that people get visions and hear voices unless they are either crazy or possessed... but I have to admit at the same time I come across that is when I had Joel 2 on the mind which was said by Acts to have been fulfilled at the end of the Jewish system, only obviously not entirely since the book speaks to the last Last days. I've also long wondered, anyone out there believe that there is going to be an end to the Christian system, and that's what parallels the end of the Jewish system?

So poof, after 3.5 years of chaos and ravaging apparently Christ appears (I say apparently, don't have the timing worked here, again, looking for people who want to have fun; people who enjoy the scriptures and find them fascinating and alive!) and poof! be gone are the anointed, I mean the Christs body, I mean the Christians (oh those synonyms) thus THE END of the new covenant.

And the beginning of movie 5. The picking up of the old covenant, the restoration, Armageddon. Again need help with order. I can't tell when the travel back to the land is—before or after Armageddon? The key is in the references to the "walled" and "unwalled" city, I think.

The millenium, the end.

I'm tired. Must go sleep. I love dreaming.

Apologies for the rant. I got a sad phone call from my mother. Was nice to hear her voice, at least.

Thanks for listening guys. Its a jumbled mess above. I'd rather hit send and see who sticks around despite rather than to try to craft something which takes much longer. It's nicer to find out who's with you, and work together! :)

With love,

Nibbled the Word

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

@Bobcat Oh thank you! That makes me happy to hear! It's lonely to be treking without anyone to consider your steps or to walk with you! The first "non JW" thing I did was order a book called "Apostle on the Edge". That was where I learned I had actually known through visiting the antiquity much of the culture which surrounds these letters. Eating the Jewish ghetto of Rome under the shadow of the arch of Janus, for instance.

The book does a great job of summing it up layman, and just letting you think for yourself style. I don't actually recall it supporting or negating my thought (which came later) on this. I just recall that it was freeing. (I had ordered it because I was interested in the disctinction between OT-John, plus Hebrew letters & Revelation, vs. Paul's letters.) And that it did a good job of making me feel like I'd actually been smart to history before I read it. (If you know me, I live it more than learn it, and only then come to learn it and realize I 'know' something.)

So basically, more than getting stuck on that one verse, I ended up backing out to a higher elevation view again. I said, okay, think about it. You know Paul. What does he mean here? Who is he talking to? Taking in the context, and the context switching (between the two distinct audiences or readers of his letter; and knowing that his letters circulated, so as we take in all his letters today they would too...) even sticking that one letter, he's telling them quite simply—you're not becoming one of them, they need to become apart of the NEW. Thus, back to that verse. If he HAD meant as most take it, that they "the true Church" or the Christians were the "[true] Israel of God"—would he have just wasted his breath in all his other arugment in the letter?

It's complicated, but I went through (in my 'free' time: sort of ditched the rest of life. tired of being hit on; they can't handle my spirituality, why bother thinking they can handle my body? ugh. j/k it's a circular thing, point is happily lonely) and essentially starting cutting it up. test each verse's understanding in the original context (when he'd quote somebody; what was the guy he was quoting talking about, and directed to whom? and how did they at that time understand it to me) and then modern (Paul's letter's day) context in the first century. As best as I can tell, there's no reason for us to believe different than the first century congregation, we just happen to understand differently. but our understanding is not well founded. what's changed?

can't wait to hear what you come across. if you're a book buyer, buy the book, but honestly i didn't finish it. i got probably halfway through and then was too engrossed in the scriptures. sounds like your brain already is freed from the scullcap. :)

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

BobCat hi there.

Check out this link which takes you to the Interlinear. Note in the Greek the punctuation inserted. This reads clearly as "peace and mercy to you guys who listen to my instructions; [Paul heaves a sigh] and even to the Israel of God who made me have to write this letter in the first place."

dramatized of course but trying to share the imagery; the dramatization isn't my persuasion simply trying to add help in mindset.

The versions which render it "even to the Israel of God" make the point, then you'll note others completely render it as "the true church who are the real Israel". Ah, the violence done! Click the parallel tab to see all the variations in rendering.

http://interlinearbible.org/galatians/6-16.htm

your thoughts?

oh context shows Paul's mentality. "I wish they'd castrate themselves" — gotta love that guy!

21

Baptized

by nibbled in

how old were you when you were baptized?.

.

i was 12 years old..

nibbled

Pickler, didn't realize you're female. :) You make such a good point. If I'm not trusted to make a child's choice like clothing,...

At 12, I made my own choice. My parents also pretty much treated me like an adult, and at 15 I was a legally emanicipated minor so I could make adult decisions when I traveled alone.

Puberty hit and boys and men alike were ever present. I married young and wrong. That choice and my parents freedom seems so different than that which I now recognize as our Father's guidance on the matter. His son didn't get baptized until he was 30 years old! Imagine the disgrace in the WT of a "born-in" waiting that long!

31

Music you never noticed was ...

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i have friends in very cool jobs.

my world interacts quite often with music stars, and i have interesting conversations.

for instance, i was talking with the members of animal kingdom, and asked the lead singer about the lyrics i picked up while listening them perform for the group a few minutes earlier... i felt stupid because i hadn't realized the name of the song, and only had caught a few lyrics... he wrote of mephistopheles.

nibbled

Well, I care. I have noticed that many posters have a "could give a sh!t" attitude towards anything they aren't interested in (and bother to waste their time telling you, too!). I imagine each person walking up and slapping me across the face. I've been on the Internet for 16 years but I've never found any less agreeable people than former JW's.

Why carry the bitterness? Leolaia is there any place were the people are more considerate? Is everyone the same IRL?

It's funny "why do you care?" doesn't carry much tone of voice but at least it implies you're interested in the person.

I obviously don't belong here. Every three posts I read at least one kills a little more of my happy.

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

@Pterist You're good with me! I can feel that you're discussing with me, as I hope you view my intent as well. I want to learn all I can, but come from a personal understanding of scripture now singularly my own through spirit and scripture, not biased to any religion or denomination (though raised WT). I also have a desire to share what I learn with others who are 'seekers' as I do believe there is one Truth. So, we're all good!

On the other hand, I seem to have a little more difficulty understanding your posts...

The scriptures SPIRITUALIZED the above events/promises

My intent in the discussion is to express that there is no "spiritualization" that I have found in the scriptures. There is a revealed "new creation", but that doesn't change what was inspired and said in the word of God in the old covenant, "spiritualizing Israel" or "spiritualizing" anything else.

By restoration, I mean that while Paul's explanations seem to be interpreted by Christians of modern history without any awareness of the cultural understanding—meaning today they believe something, I believe, entirely different than the first congregation, about what Paul was telling them/us.

I've been trying to figure out how to paint the story of the culture in which those congregations lived, their understanding of Paul's letters.

The reason is that simply, until I can find people who accept that Paul was not turning Christians into "spirtual Israel" or "spiritual Jews" but was explaining to them that both fleshly and spiritual former Israelites, and fleshly and spiritual Jews, AND anyone else of any descent were all a "new creation" in Christ, and part of the NEW covenant.

THEN ... if that foundation is understood,...

The Restoration prophecies can be discussed with a shared foundation (or at least premise). For instance, Israel was promised restoration to it's name and identity (Hosea) though having been taken captive out of their land (Samaria of ten-tribe northern Israel).

Some people have tried to persuade me to believe that it's all happened already. There are numerous points that they have not—for instance, the lion, bears, snakes and children, if nothing else, we know hasn't happened.

In any case, for me, the point is still trying to find people who either get Paul's teaching the way I do, so we can evaluate together the whole—Paul, and how what happens after the "full number of the nations come in" with the old covenant people.

To be clear, because I struggle being clear so people can understand what I mean: I believe that Israel and Judah will return to the land, just like Hosea and Jeremiah, and most all the other prophets prophesied. Even now where we now have post-1948 Israel, we still only have "Judah" accounted for, at best. Besides that, I don't believe 1948 is the restoration of Judah, but is another event mentioned by scripture (basically Judah would preceed Israel and there's stuff that goes down, and then there is the restoration which is both plus people of the nations; but this is also AFTER the new covenant folks have been POOF! be goned!)

I can explain it, right now looking for folks who are either curious and thinkers, believe simliar, or want to go along for the ride possibly to contribute.

I'll ask if any reading this are interested, let me know. I'm not going to try that discussion on this board, and am testing out new means of communication and information sharing. Basically gathering folks, as if it were a "project" and then we'll discuss.

I'm looking forward to it! Exciting to get to meet people virtually!

Pterist, did that make any sense? I don't understand your point yet, about the scriptures spiritualized the events, but maybe you're talking about Paul's letters of Romans and Galatians?