Sorry about the large paragraph breaks, I use a tool that apparently converts it into double when I paste it into the reply.
Pterist, do you believe Abraham is a Jew? Or an Israelite?
Do you believe any of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, were?
Who is the root, if you were to name it as a person or persons? I've assumed it's Abraham (as we are his seed by faith) or Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the patriarchs of the family faith.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not Jews or Israelites, just Hebrew. So at best the root of the vine is Hebrew.
Now, Christ was the promised branch, the true vine.
"Jews have not accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, they seem to be cut off, they're like branches of an olive tree that are cut off. And the Gentiles, who are not natural branches of the olive tree, have been grafted in their place. That means that they're part of Israel now."
Funny, I wrote about this, but I'm more inclined to write fresh. I'll go later to see if I can find it. I started the blog so I had an easier way to find stuff. I have notes everywhere—emails, Evernote, Notes app, etc.
Soooo…
That means that they're part of Israel now.
I believe that the root is not Israel. It is either "faith" or Abraham. Jesus was the promised branch, the true vine. He was a vine or branch, not the root. Israel's twelve tribes were the branches, and ten branches were pruned right away, then even more later. Then we were grafted in.
A hardening happened upon a part of Israel (some accepted the Messiah), and that hardening which is still upon them will be lifted, and thus all Israel will be saved. But first, he's letting us all get in on the good's. The opportunity lasts until the "full number" come in. After we have, "as it is written" then "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob." That's not us, that's them—the hardened ones. And there will be a covenant with them (they had an old covenant and they will get a new covenant, but they're not apart of THE new covenant, they missed that opportunity because they were hardened). And well, at that point Paul points out that we can go read the new covenant that happens for the hardened now softened people in Isaiah. There's no "coming to know and learning to love Jehovah". Nope. (Isa 59:20,21)
All Israel is saved because after he's done gathering us, he's going to go back to dealing with them. Not because he's renamed us Israel.
I feel passionately about my understanding, but I am very much seeking to understand what everyone believes to understand why what I "see" is so different. I can "see" it so clearly, but it's so different than what feels like EVERYONE else!
I like the AMP version of the scriptures, but sometimes their theology is wrong. It seems pretty spot on for Romans 11. They are clear that Jews were the ones present when Messiah came, and all other parenthetical details. Check it out? My belief is not based on it. I don't really read one version. I am mostly in the interlinears. Call it distrust I learned from my upbringing. I want to know what it really says! :)
I just finished reading the rest of that post—I'd forgotten in responding that this was a Yale class. I bet that teacher would hate me. All the teachers I ever had loved me because I never asked questions and always knew the answer. I've never been in this kind of spot before!
Thanks Pterist! Feed me more! I've been starving!
As for the rest of the post —
Paul isn't starting a new religion. He's doing quite the opposite. God gave the Law to Israel. Israelites ignored it, Jews turned it into a religion. Christ fulfilled it and said keep it simple: ten commandments. Paul reinforces Christ's "new wine" definition of worship—I completed the sacrifice requirement, now love each other, drink wine and eat bread together and remember me. Keep doing this till I come back. Oh, and you're going to miss me when I'm gone. (hehe)
Christian is a word that only appears twice in the scriptures.
to bring them into Israel to make the Gentiles part of Israel .
Prove it. This is the point that I've never been able to prove. It's just a Christian theory.
If I had a tree I could demonstrate. I am picturing a little movie of a tree. The arrow points at the root, and labels it "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or the Father's of the Promise of Faith" (the seed that was planted first made roots). Then it would show the branches. Twelve. Ten then are Israel, and two then are Judah (by tribes). After the branches have their little twigs growing off of them you strip away most of the branches. (It was only a partial hardening. Israelites the land but they didn't die. They end up later in places like Roma, Galatia, Corinth...) Then you graft in (grab some super glue or duct tape) new branches representing all the nations, tribes, people and tongues. Incidentally to actually graft you attach it to the stock or base of the tree/vine. You can't graft a branch to a branch.
He was definitely the most radical Jewish theologian. He redefined what Jewish Christians understood of the old covenant scriptures.
However, the story of how this all happens isn't news, its just still isn't understood. It's written in the old covenant scriptures.
Hitting send. I can, and am incrediably passionate to continue this discussion. I'm mostly interested in what—if anything—caught anyones curiousity, made them blink or think twice, whince, react in any kind of way, or what questions arise.
