David_Jay

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Posts by David_Jay

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  46

  The Pope Tells Trump He's Not A Christian

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this should be fun.

  building a wall is unchristian.

  i can't understand why the pope is getting involved in american politics.. poor donald..

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  David_Jay

  I don't believe anyone is necessarily above enduring criticism. But I do think it is time to put a well-worn and incorrect Watchtower teaching to rest about the Pope that baker brought up.

  Catholics do not teach or believe the pope is infallible. Pope=infallible, that is the Watchtower at its most ignorant, uneducated height.

  What the Catholic Church teaches is that when a doctrine of faith is under question and all the research is done for and against an issue, the pope can declare the result in favor of the doctrine never being questionable again.

  This means the pope can declare a doctrine once under debate as dogma, namely that the DOCTRINE is infallible. But several things need to be in play for this to happen.

  1. The questionable doctrine must be put to the test with not merely clergy but especially the laity being questioned regarding their understanding of the issues involved.

  2. The doctrine cannot be newly invented by anyone, including a pope. The question can only involve that which has been (or believed to have been) embraced as doctrine since the beginning of the Church.

  3. The pope and/or college of cardinals working in unison with the pope can only declare the doctrine as dogma or infallible in accordance with the evidence presented.

  Only twice in 2000 years have popes ever made such formal statements regarding doctrine. Unlike the Governing Body, declaring a doctrine as infallible dogma requires the laity to be involved, and both dogmatic pronouncements sided with the view of the laity over what many scholars believed when they were made.

  That is not nothing like the Governing Body and the way it does things and invents unquestionable doctrine in closed sessions.
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  22

  Someone needs to tell "The Librarian" to stop feeding the apostate trolls.

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

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  David_Jay

  There are many things wrong with the Jehovah's Witnesses...many, many things. But this is not one of them.

  Just as being an ex-JW does not automatically make you a "mentally diseased apostate," being a JW does not automatically make you a person with questionable morals.

  Good people get caught up in this religion. Good people are still within, many struggling with trying to get out. While there, most do their best at being their best. And many with no intention on leaving aren't any more a danger to your child than the good, faithful priest and kind nun in a Catholic parish who are not involved with child molestation (and in fact fighting against it).

  Most of us here were once Jehovah's Witnesses. When we were kind to a child, was that due to some morally questionable desires we had? I doubt it. Regardless of how much we did or didn't believe in the doctrine, most of us were not a threat to children. Human nature generally moves us to act as protector and educator, not predator, even when it is not our own child. That is why sexual child abuse is so horrible becuase it goes against our basic human instincts regarding children.

  Regardless what Jehovah's Witnesses believe or teach, none of this makes them any less human. They may regard us ex-JW as less human or "mentally diseased," but we will not be the same in kind. These are people, you were once one of them, and we are not so far removed from one another as we often like to think. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Condemning genuine kindness in others condemns us when we act the same.

  Understandably many are angry and greatly hurt after leaving the Watchtower, but like everything else, we need to keep our emotions in check. When we start seeing everything the Witnesses do with suspicion, that is a signal we may have let things go too far. Emotion can only take you to a certain point and negative feelings can't be your master. Use common sense and common decency.

  And stick to facts instead of calling each elder who shows kindness to a child a potential child molesting pervert.
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  25

  Evil Bible

  by Simon in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hadn't seen this site before, i thought i'd share it:.

  http://www.evilbible.com/.

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  David_Jay

  Of course, this page is just talking about Christians and their use of the Bible.

  Including the New Testament (except for Luke and Acts), the Bible was written by Jews. Why not go after the Jews? They wrote it. That's where all the trouble started. If the Bible is evil, then so are the Jews and Jewish thought. It's all their fault. If there is someone to blame for the evils of the Bible and all that has been visited upon the world of humanity for its application, it's the Jews, am I right?

  It's not the Christians' fault. Gentiles didn't come up with concept of YHWH or a "Messiah" (which is a Jewish concept). It's those pesky Jews, right?

  Of course, I'm of Jewish ancestry and all my family are Jews. Maybe you should go after me and call me and my family and the products of our culture evil.

  No, I'm not advocating religion (I've had my fill of mean church pastors, child-abusing clergy and rabbis, and self-serving church members), but I am saying that we need to be careful and logical about approaches to support particular conclusions. We may believe the Bible false and have no love for religion, but the Bible isn't a product of the Gentile or non-Jewish world.

  With just a minor correction and removing the blame from the Christians over to the actual culture that produced the Bible, very few people would be willing to applaud and promote a site that calls what the Jews do and what their culture produced as "evil." All the reasonable arguments therein would be lost by such a presentation. Besides, most Jews and Christians have a very advanced critical view of Scripture, and some of these views on the site are overly simplified Fundamentalist arguments. Atheists need to be able to run (and can run) at the same academic standard the majority of Bible believers do.

  And yes, as the release of The Annotated Jewish New Testament (NRSV) demonstrates, many Jews around the world have begun a movement that, while not accepting the doctrinal conclusions, is attempting to reclaim the NT writings as a product of Jewish culture. So is the blame properly directed? Is it merely a doctrinal issue? Is it just Christians? It isn't, is it? If you're gonna blame someone about the Bible, you cannot stop at those who merely read it.

  For all the applause a site like this might deserve, I think atheists are capable of (and many are) arguing points presented from the likes of scholars who produce such things as published by Oxford Press and Loyola and other mainstream Bible publishers who produce critical editions of Scripture translations. Those are where the real arguments should be directed, and not merely at those views which are considered backwards by Christendom itself.

  Again, I think it is great that we who choose to be atheists are able to freely express such thoughts today, but let us be accurate in our information, think things through, and test whether the simple replacing of adjectives and other descriptive terms wouldn't equally be thought of as a "hate piece." Logic goes hand-in-hand with reasonableness, tolerance, and scholarly academia.
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  44

  This is Just getting Ridiculous and out of hand with the Borg

  by MrsR-Awaken in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  saw this on reddit it was posted by user morgan_sparlock .

  to me honestly this would of been prohibited 10 years ago, but now every dub is obsessed with this website, it's everywhere even a damn iphone cover... ooh they don't approve of idolatry ooh no they don't accept cross veneration thats bullshit to me!!!

  its getting to a point that they are venerating this website (company logo) it's their version of the cross.

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  David_Jay

  
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  79

  What's a word that describes the way Witnesses behave as a group?

  by paul from cleveland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i can't recall the word that describes a group that keeps to itself like the witnesses do.

  i thought it was "insular" but i don't think that's the one i'm looking for after reading the definition.

  i remember an elder using the word "clannish" and that has the proper definition but it reminds me of a group of elves.

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  David_Jay

  Talesin is on to something and probably right on the button there. The Witnesses do indeed practice a form of "isolationism," that is a disinterest in the world around them, especially regarding political affairs.
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  79

  What's a word that describes the way Witnesses behave as a group?

  by paul from cleveland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i can't recall the word that describes a group that keeps to itself like the witnesses do.

  i thought it was "insular" but i don't think that's the one i'm looking for after reading the definition.

  i remember an elder using the word "clannish" and that has the proper definition but it reminds me of a group of elves.

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  David_Jay

  Ah! You are looking for a word that describes their "separatism" that they practice, similar to the Amish.

  That may be difficult because they don't totally separate themselves or even see themselves as a culture that requires that type of social removal in order for preservation. But it is something similar, no?

  They are not like the Amish, but more like the Mormons in their being "separate" from others. Is there a word for that type of separatism? Hmmm.
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  79

  What's a word that describes the way Witnesses behave as a group?

  by paul from cleveland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i can't recall the word that describes a group that keeps to itself like the witnesses do.

  i thought it was "insular" but i don't think that's the one i'm looking for after reading the definition.

  i remember an elder using the word "clannish" and that has the proper definition but it reminds me of a group of elves.

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  David_Jay

  It might be also important to realize that many ideological movements don't believe they are "keeping to themselves." They tend to see it as avoiding those who reject them.

  Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, insist that they are not required to avoid or shun anyone who is disfellowshipped, that they do so because the disfellowshipped person took a path that led to a place where they have brought being shunned, rejected, and separated upon themselves. This is why Witnesses insist that they don't shun others or separate themselves from society, when in all reality we know they do.
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  79

  What's a word that describes the way Witnesses behave as a group?

  by paul from cleveland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i can't recall the word that describes a group that keeps to itself like the witnesses do.

  i thought it was "insular" but i don't think that's the one i'm looking for after reading the definition.

  i remember an elder using the word "clannish" and that has the proper definition but it reminds me of a group of elves.

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  David_Jay

  I cannot say. Ideologies believe in making others like themselves or rejecting them. That is why it is so easy to do violence to non-members or ignore them in acts of shunning.
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  79

  What's a word that describes the way Witnesses behave as a group?

  by paul from cleveland in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i can't recall the word that describes a group that keeps to itself like the witnesses do.

  i thought it was "insular" but i don't think that's the one i'm looking for after reading the definition.

  i remember an elder using the word "clannish" and that has the proper definition but it reminds me of a group of elves.

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  David_Jay

  The word, in my humble opinion, is "ideological."

  And I mean "ideology" as in the same demand for zeal and uniformity of WWII Imperial Japan or the jihadist group ISIS (ISIL, IS, Daesh). It is a philosophy that insists that your way is right, others need to conform to it, and includes a strong "us-against-the-world" attitude which is generally an earmark to this type of thinking.

  These type of ideological societies generally see themselves as central players in a religious drama, one at a climactic point in history that will soon change to see all the universe conform to their views. Their adherence to the ideology is far more important that the individual doctrines or beliefs that make it up (which can be disposed of as necessary should any of these stand in the way of the central conviction that they are the central players in the most important world-altering events).
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  12

  The Pope is more like Christ than the GB

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  just a quick line to share something i heard in the news yesterday.

  while we may disagree with many of the doctrines of the catholic church, there was something interesting.. the subject was regarding the view by the church on abortion and contraceptives.

  while the pope insisted in the absolute and immutable evil of terminating a pregnancy, he said that considering the risks presented by the zika virus, women in south america should consider contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies that could end up in a child born with defects.

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  David_Jay

  According to a Catholic prophet and a tradition that grew from one of his predictions (I don't know it off hand becuase, unlike the gracious abilities of Blondie--which I am always grateful for--I have no such exposure to Catholicism nor do they have a CD-Rom which covers their past 2000 years)...but according to how some Catholics have read the prophecy at the end of the 20th century, Pope John Paul II was the next to the last pope predicted by this prophet, to be followed by a final pope before "Peter" returned to the papacy.

  The reference to "Peter" is symbolic, according to some, and the fact that the list ends there (according to some Catholics) does not mean they expect St. Peter to rise from the dead and become pope or that the office of popes end with this "Peter." Instead the view is that the papacy changes permenantly to become like that which it was intended.

  Some Catholics count the number of popes in the prophecy differently, and the official view of the Church is that the prophecy is often wrongly applied and, as part of a non-public revelation, is not due formal acceptance by any Catholic who does not wish to accept it, if counted this way the fact of a new pope, so much more popular and loving that John Paul II (and many thought there could never be a pope like JPII, let alone more groundbreaking and beloved), that this new pope took a new name never chosen by a pope before, and is radically different and attempting so many radical reforms is interesting.

  I think a glass ceiling has been broken, and even if this pope doesn't make all the changes necessary (and it is apparent from the way some bishops and cardinals are acting that he won't), I think his next successors will have a similar spirit. The old type of popes, like the prophecy states, may be long gone.

  Of course, I am not saying I believe in this prophecy. I am only bringing out how interesting the coincidence is.