Posts by David

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Cold Steel wrote:

If you believe the Jews borrowed the god language from their Mesopotamian neighbors, that may be true, but how do you -- David Jay -- know that this is how Abraham and Moses comprehended Him?

The Jewish teachings on how Abraham and Moses comprehended God are found in Hebrew academia, history, and tradition, such as the Midrash. These contain views as old or older than those found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Abraham and Lot both knew many of the heathen and Moses was raised an Egyptian. Moses beholds the burning bush and we're left to wonder what this Entity was and why it was drawn towards Israel?

Like the way Hebrew is written from right to left without vowels as opposed to English being written left to right with vowels, your question is a bit Gentile in thought as opposed to the way Jews think. We're not left to wonder what God is, at least the way Jews approach God. God is accepted on God's own terms.

Also, it seems you skipped over my previous answer to you on how since Abraham came to acknowledge something about God that his contemporaries did not, God took a special interest in Abraham's descendants.

And by the way, the Burning Bush is understood by many in Judaism to have been a manifestation of the Shekinah to Moses among the shrubbery on Mt. Sinai.

Many of the Patristic-era fathers left descriptions of this Entity (called "God" for lack of a better term) very similar to how you're describing Him. Such a Being can't really be in the same image as man, nor even really be referred to as a "He" properly since He has no peers nor a mate. In short, He is self-existent and has an intelligence that transcends the Universe. If so, can we be sure He can even be described as El or Eloheim?

You are right.

The term "he" is actually not found in the Hebrew in reference to God. While a masculine pronoun appears, it is only due to syntax requirements. In Judaism, God has no gender. If you notice I never call God "he" or say things like "God himself." I don't even use "King" or "Lord," as those English words have masculine overtones. In Judaism it is actually wrong to ascribe gender to God. Instead of "King" we say "Sovereign," and instead of " Lord" we say "Adonai" or "the Eternal" or "HaShem."

As to being in the "image" of God, this refers to sharing his qualities and abilities, albeit on a far smaller scale. God has no appearance as God does not exist in any form or body, spiritual or otherwise.

God is only described as El and Elohim for a lack of a better term. Those were some of the first and oldest terms for the God of Abraham. G_d and HaShem are among some of the names to be developed for God In relatively modern times. But in the end, Jews as acknowledge God as mystery.

4

The handmaid's tale, possible in a jw controlled world?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

i've been watching "the handmaid's tale" and while disturbing i found it to be doubly so because i kept thinking "if the jws ever got control of a country is this what it would look like?

" especially when it comes to the treatment of women as mere property.

.

David_Jay

The novel is even more shocking and revealing.

In it, a Christian Fundamentalist group is responsible. While you might at first think about Jehovah's Witnesses, because of the political intrigue involved, that quickly gets tossed out the window. The ideals of American Protestant Conservatism which still cling to their Puritan roots is actually what is being portrayed. It is what would happen if a group like America's Moral Majority militarized and organized a coup. Puritanism would be reinstated since American Protestant Conservatism is still based on its theology. The theocracy of this story is also governed by the political-socio rules of a military dictatorship.

In the novel groups like Catholics and Jews are executed--Catholics outright, Jews given a "fake" choice to convert and join Gilead (which is what they now call the country) or leave for Israel, during which they are killed while on the journey.

Though no mention is made of NRMs like Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and Mormons, the impression given is that they either assimilate or are quickly executed if they didn't get a chance to escape. Groups that do not support the military and do not submit to the Puritan theology (which the NRMs do not) are dissolved in this dystopian society.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

unsure,

I understand a bit of where you are coming from. After all I was a Jehovah's Witness for a while in my youth.

But it is clear from how you speak that like most, you still have a view of the Bible and Isaiah and other texts of Scripture that is colored not by Jewish theology but by Christianity. Most Christians won't believe a Jew when they tell them there is another way to look at things, and you can't convince them that the way they are reading Scripture is not the way it was ever intended by the people and culture that wrote it.

So they see God as someone who will "hold it against people if they get angry at, or do not believe in" God. Jews do things in the complete opposite way.

Jews understand God and someone who invites arguments, expects us to get angry, and doesn't really care if we "believe" in God. God's love isn't measured by the Christian verse that reads: "God is love." And Jews teach that God does not want people to be forced to worship or believe in God. God will not punish anyone for not believing in God. The God of the "Old Testament" that you are describing is a figment of a Gentile imagination. But if it's what you want to believe, oh well.

Just one last thing to make you think: Christians see God sort of as a puppet-master, pulling strings and controlling everyone and everything. They pray to God to ask God for things, kind of like a child asks Santa Claus for toys.

Jews see God as a partner in life. God won't pull any strings unless we give God permission. And though we might on occasion ask God for things, we regularly use prayer to bless God and sanctify our actions so that we can work with God to try to bring healing into the world. You are right, there is suffering. But you don't have to believe in God to devote your life to stopping it wherever it may be.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Unsure wrote:

If there was no fall of man out of God's favor it means that the universe as it is now is as intended by God. It is full of suffering. Why would a loving God design it this way? It doesn't seem right. Christianity tries to explain suffering (but still fails in my opinion) through the fall of man.
Either way, if this God really cared surely they could have conceived a better design without the need to test us.

You kind of answered the reason why you have this question in the first place. You said that "Christianity tries to explain suffering."

The type of question you are asking is based on what I personally call the "Hippie-Jesus-Love" idea of God. It's totally Christian. It sees God as this epitome of love that fits a definition designed by human beings that force God to love according to definitions and limits and expectations they have made.

To the Jewish mind, this is nothing more than making another golden calf. You (and this may be more than you Christians who see things this way) are the one that is saying that the way things are "doesn't seem right." God never said that that the world right now isn't the way God planned it.

You are the one that is claiming that the suffering in the world is incompatible with God. If there is a God, how do you know this? Can you prove to anybody, everyone, and anyone that what you expect God to be is right?

Let us say you are not suffering. Let us say you are healthy and rich. Will you then complain that God is unloving because you are now without suffering, and you are satisfied but someone else is not so fortunate? Do the rich call God unfair because they are rich?

Let's go one step further. Let's say you have two shirts. You meet a man who has none. He suffers because he has no shirt. What do you do? To end his suffering you must give him a shirt, but you only have two. If you give one away, you make yourself poorer and put yourself at risk. You will ease this other man's suffering, but you will begin to suffer. Is it wrong that you begin to suffer? Again, your suffering is easing the suffering of another. If that is the case, is suffering bad and unloving?

When a parent works overtime to have enough money to buy medicine for their suffering child, and the extra work means some suffering on behalf of the parent, is the suffering the parent endures evil or a demonstration of love, something good?

You see, suffering is not an indicator of something morally bad or wrong. Ask anyone who works out to gain a better physique or who must endure months of physical rehabilitation to regain their ability to walk after a stroke--does their suffering bring about more suffering or less? Is it bad or beneficial?

Suffering has no moral quality to it. Some things hurt. Even some good things hurt, even for an extended period of time. On the other side, doing something like getting high with a drug can feel great and bring disaster.

Suffering and not suffering are not indicators of benevolence. True, a handful of salt when there is no water can be terrible to endure. but the fact that some people seem to only get salt doesn't mean water doesn't exist or that salt can't be good.

The problem you are describing may not have answers in Judaism, but Christianity's claim of a Fall from Grace and a Savior to redeem us from doesn't seem to help you any either. Perhaps you might need to stop seeing things as good and bad, and perhaps try to stop trying to see life as some experiment by which God is trying to test us.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

If YHWH is real, but not "God," what is He? Is He intelligence? Or is He the sum of stories created around countless fires on dark desert night?

You misunderstood. YHVH is not "a god" in the traditional sense.

In Jewish theology, "gods" are fabrications made by the Gentiles. There are no such things as gods. YHVH is the Cause of the universe, intelligent and real, yes, but far more more than a god. People can understand the concept of a god or deity, but YHVH defies such. Jews borrowed "god-language" from their Mesopotamian neighbors, but the God of Abraham is beyond that of the concept of deity. The Great Cause of All, the mathematics and laws that govern all, and all of this which cannot even be guessed at is what Jews call "God"--personal and impersonal, knowable and beyond knowing, a Cause we can attempt to speak of but is really ineffable.

But in what sense is God real? If He is an intelligence and is not a GOD, what is He and why did He take an interest in the Jews?

Jewish sages have taught that the universe is the "effect" noticed by Abraham. He reasoned that this "effect" that he, himself was a part of must have a "Cause." Since we, the "effect," are real, then the Cause must be real too.

God is not merely intelligence either. Our God is far greater than just that. Since Abraham was the one who among his contemporaries who embraced this fact, God chose his descendents to carry on this understanding. This concept is what Jewish theology calls "monotheism": no God but one, no god but God.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Jews can be as diverse as anyone else, but I never understood why my friend would live kosher and eat kosher if he was an atheist. Yet he did. He said it was a cultural thing. What good is any religion if it doesn't address the afterlife or the judgment of man?

Judaism is not a religion of belief or faith. It is one of action, where people cooperate with God to bring practical healing and help into the world.

Technically speaking, Jews don't "believe" in God. None of us have this "belief." But that doesn't mean that Jews don't accept God as real.

In Gentile religions it seems to be important to many of them that one have "faith" in a set of creeds or theological concepts. Jews don't (and many actually won't) do this. This type of "faith" is a mental assent that a certain concept or doctrine is true, something one has to guard from doubt. In the Jewish mind, real things don't require belief or faith.

One does not "believe" in their existence on the planet earth or "guard their faith" in the existence of their family from doubt. Why not? These things are real. Our existence on earth and the existence of our family members is not affected by how much or how little belief we have in their existence. They exist, and no amount of belief or faith is necessary.

God is no different for Jews. God is real. We are Jews only because we are in a covenant with God. Without God there would be no covenant, and without the covenant there would be no people known as the Jews. If I, a Jew, exist and my people exist, then no belief is necessary in any of this. All these elements are therefore real.

But since God is not a deity in the sense "deity" is usually understood in non-Jewish religion, some Jews are atheist. On the flip side, not all Jews who will say "I don't believe in God" are atheist either. And not all Jews who will say they do believe in God will be Torah observant.

This can be confusing to Gentiles because in their culture religion is about what one believes. In Jewish culture, religion is what one does. A person can claim they believe in a concept but have doubts or weak faith. A challenge may cause them to act contrary to their claimed convictions. Yet in Judaism, one's convictions can only be judged by one's actions. We don't "walk the talk." Instead Jew merely walk. The "talk" has no value as Judaism is about bringing practical, useful benefits into the world. A person's mere mental assent that some religious concept is real cannot guarantee this.

We are not focused on an afterlife as we have the miracles of a present life. Every breath we have now is a gift. Every moment of life is a miracle. Every second is this life is a second experiencing God who Jews accept as real as the world they live in. We have no need for belief or faith as we are already with God now. Any future life is guaranteed by the covenant we keep. (And yes, the covenant relationship has not ended, just changed over the years.)

Since Jews do not accept the Christian belief of the Fall of Man, there is no judgment of man necessary. God judged man at creation when God pronounced us "good." The narrative of Eden merely introduces the "wrestling" with God by which Jacob and we inherited the name "Israel."

Jews do not see wrestling with God as a Fall, but as the sign that we are in a covenant. Partners in a covenant often wrestle with another. This "wrestling" occurs because both are working to bring healing into the world through Torah, a process we call "Tikkun Olam." We don't always see eye-to-eye on how best to do this like most partners in a legally binding contract, but when either side refuses to do it the way the other wants it isn't always a literal sin. Eventually one side gives in to the other, sometimes there is compromise. But a Fall of Man has never occurred. God wants partners in Tikkun Olam, not blind slaves.

Our religion is our culture. You cannot ask us to leave one behind without leaving the other behind as they are one. Thus a Jew may not believe in God and keep kosher (technically speaking, I don't "believe" in God because things that are real don't require my faith, as they exist whether I acknowledge them or not). Our religion is not a belief system. Judaism is how we express who we are.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

David_Jay

Cold Steel wrote:

I have not recommended that you or anyone else read the Book of Mormon, nor have I done the things you accuse me of.

But in the thread "Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong?" Cold Steel posted in a reply to me:

You may also wish to read the Book of Mormon to determine the differences between modern Jews and those living in 600 BCE.

You can also look at all the LDS texts he presents to me in that thread and the video he inserted that I should look at. Cold Steel, you did indeed do these things. There are not accusations.

I suggest you go back and reread this thread to find out how this whole thing developed before making your accusations.

I suggest everyone to see this other thread and look at your comments on this site and see that you are indeed recommending I read your LDS texts.

You are not being honest with us or your church. Faithful Mormons do not discuss their religion with Israelis. Since you posted your email address on here, I have used to it to look up your name and that of your wife. I am very certain if I let those in responsible positions in your local church know what you are doing and what you have been writing, they will agree that you have been acting most improper.

And that is not a threat. I have already contacted missionaries in my area who will help me make a formal complaint. I should also let people know on this site that you seem to be quite active all over the Internet on many boards engaging in proselytizing. One has only to look up the email name you posted on your profile, without the @gmail, and examine your handiwork elsewhere.

10

Why do they flee and hide

by eyeuse2badub in

something that has often struck me in my morning musings is: why should “god’s people” ever need to hide or flee in fear?.

there are numerous accounts recorded in the bible, both ot and nt, where prophets, kings, apostles and others have either been told to flee and hide or have just experienced that normal human feeling of fear and have fled and hidden instinctively.

even recently, the wtbts has produced vivid images in the wt magazine and videos of “god’s people” hiding out in bunkers to avoid detection.. is it just another broken promise from jehober that he will “without fail” protect “his people”?

David_Jay

That "bunker" mentality is pure cult.

Just to use examples (whether the Bible is real or not, whether God exists or not) to compare:

1. When God brings destruction of the wicked by flood, God has Noah build an ark of enormous size and then gather every species of animal and food to stuff inside of it. This was not done in secret but out in the open. No need to hide or worry about opposers attacking and stopping the work. There is no need for Noah and his family to take their work "underground," even though they are in the minority. No one gets captured, no crowds of the wicked attempt to stop them.

2. God saves the Jews from slavery in Egypt in plain sight. The wicked are those that end up hiding away and suffering due to the plagues. Goshen remains in sunlight and free from disaster or attack. On the night of Passover, the Jews clearly are not hiding as they mark their homes with a display of blood. They end up being left out for recapture at the Sea of Reeds with no place to hide from Pharoah and his chariot army. But it is a trap, and God's enemies drown in the sea while the Hebrews simply walk away to freedom.

3. God redeems his people from Babylon via an invasion from an army the Babylonians aren't even aware have crossed their borders. The Babylonian kingdom topples overnight, and the Jews, without hiding, are freed to return to the Promised Land.

4. God saves the Jews from genocide at Purim after Queen Esther comes out from hiding her true identity. Jews stand ready to fight for their lives out in the open on Purim and win the victory. No hiding necessary.

5. Judas Maccabeus, instead of hiding, leads an active revolt against the Seleucid empire, redeeming the Temple from pagan worship (today celebrated as Chanukah) and liberating the Jews from foreign control. (Included in most Christian Bibles as 1& 2 Maccabees, and though not a part of the Tanakh, acknowledged by Jews as genuine but not included in the JW/and some Protestants' canon.)

In none of these situations where God redeemed his people from enemies did anyone have to hide away in a bunker. God saved his people out in the open, again and again. In Biblical fashion, the narrative is always that redemption happens never in secret but in full, public view, demonstrating God's power.

15

This really does not end well for God.

by pleaseresearch in

to say this whole creation thing has been or will be a success at the end is absurd.

not only did one third of the angels jump ship to satans side.

but adam and eve screwed up so quickly.

David_Jay

The so-called Fall of Man, the War in Heaven, even "Satan the Devil" are all Christian inventions that, for lack of a better term, screws up the meaning behind the Jewish Scriptures.

I have to agree with Crazyguy that the whole "Jesus is God" thing is ridiculous. Even if it's more of the JW concept, it isn't logical or loving that someone with all that power would limit its use to those who had "faith" (a non-Jewish concept, by the way), tell those he healed not to tell anyone that he could heal others as he did them, and outwardly reveal to a Samaritan woman that he is the promised Messiah but not say this to the Jewish Sanhedrin.

One of the main earmarks of the Jewish Messiah is that he will first be recognized and accepted by all Jews and their leaders BEFORE the nations do. The word "messiah" does not mean merely "anointed," but actually refers to someone installed by the Jews as their king. The "anointing," or marking someone as "messiah" is part of the inaugural process performed en masse by national Jewish agreement, not in secret.

The term "messiah" is not like the title "president-elect" as if speaking of someone who has yet to fully establish his kingdom. It refers to someone who has been bestowed with the "crown of authority," someone whose administration over Israel is already in place and functioning.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

There is also the problem within Western society, even among a few atheists within, never letting go of the Christian claim that the Bible is both factual and the basis of religion. Merely applying the most basic of critical thinking methods show this cannot be.

The Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament were composed around the time of the Babylonian exile by Jews in an attempt to preserve our religious culture. This means that the religion of the Hebrews had already existed for quite some time before the Tanakh (the Jewish word for the "Old Testament") was developed. The Hebrew Bible was not written to prove to Jews or anyone else that there was a God.

In other words, a religion has to come first before it can compose its own religious texts. Watchtower publications did not come first and then get discovered by Russell and Rutherford, and then a religion came forth. That would be silly to think that. But many Westerners, even those who are not theist, still think of the Bible in similar terms: a basis for religion.

Not only does this cause a person to read it with preconceived notions and expectations that will never be met, it also is the cause of the conclusions both Christians and some (not all) atheists who come from a Christian background make about the Old Testament.

There is also the problem few discuss, namely that the problems of misunderstanding occur mainly because of not leaving Jesus of Nazareth out of the picture. In order for Jesus to be the Messiah, Christians hold that the testimony of the written gospel accounts must be fact. Since Christians hold their texts as fact, they must attempt the same with the Tanakh. Why?

If the Tanakh is not meant to be read as factual then the claims of the New Testament fall apart. Jesus of Nazareth is only the Messiah because he supposedly fulfills prophetic forecasts of Jesus written in the Tanakh. But if these texts aren't really forecasting anything, then there are no prophecies about Jesus in Hebrew Scripture. No prophecies, no Jesus Christ. No Jesus Christ, no Christianity.

Therefore the Jewish take on the Tanakh gets ignored by Western society at large. Being exposed to such information occurs almost never due to influence from a dominant Christian population that would rather not have such things discussed. Thus some who leave Christianity to become atheists get labeled as "narrow atheists" by other non-theists due to limited exposure to philology caused by Christianity.

Not that atheists need to become religious or accept the Bible. Jews find atheism a very good and intellectual life choice. Even many practicing Jews are atheist.

But the problem remains that many, religious and non-religious, have an inaccurate view of Hebrew religious texts due to the lack of exposure to the Jews' own understanding of their own book. Some are made so thick with ignorance by Christianity that one woman told me: "Why would I listen to what you have to say? What do Jews know about the Bible?"

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay