Posts by David

32

What was Jesus last name???

by James Mixon in

jesus in hebrew means "savior' and christ in greek means "messiah".

these are identifiers --not names in jesus case.. where did the name christ come from, his parents???

?i can see the name jesus (first name) but christ.

Jews did not take "last names" until very long after the Roman Diaspora divided the Jews into Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups. "Surnames" are a Gentile practice. The Roman Diaspora began after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended in 135 C.E.

Because of the resistance to this Gentile practice, Ashkenazi Jews were the last Europeans to take surnames. While there is a record of some German-speaking Ashkenazi Jews freely taking surnames as early as the 17th century, they normally did not do so until compelled to do so by law. Some merely kept their tribal name like the Cohens (kohen means "priest" or refers to a Levite in Hebrew).

This was the rule-of-thumb for the Sephardic Jews who lived in the Iberian peninsula, though it appears some, like their Ashkenazi counterparts did take up surnames freely (the last name “Marroquin” comes from Moroccan Jews who had come to see their home as their new “Promised Land” and thus named themselves after it). During the Spanish Inquisition, many of the Sephardic Jews made up names during the forced conversions that “sounded” Catholic like “de la Cruz” (“of the Cross”), or even created names that sounded like patriotic names. For instance, “Hernandez” is one of the most famous Sephardic Jewish names in the world. It was made up to sound like “Fernandez,” which means “of the sons of Ferdinand,” in honor of the king Ferdinand. They may have done this to sound like they were supporting Ferdinand and Isabella, the king and queen behind the Inquisition, but at the same time avoiding the actual name because they were the ones behind the forced conversions and persecution.

Before this, however, Jews did not have last names. Therefore Jesus of Nazareth did not have a last name. In fact, he may have been called things like Jesus (or to be more exact) “Joshua, son of Joseph,” or his name would be followed by his profession, his father and mother’s name, the name of family members, the town he was from, etc. It would depend also where a discussion about him was going on. If it was in Nazareth, he would not be called “of Nazareth” there. If no one knew Joseph or Mary or his family, these would not have been mentioned. He would probably have been called merely a teacher, preacher, or rabbi when there were no other ways to identify him as Joshua/Jesus was a common name at the time.

42

“Tree of good and bad” means what?

by venus in

if “tree of good and bad” were literal, it would mean adam and eve would know what is “good and bad” only after eating of that tree.

however, even before eating of it, they would think “it is good for us to eat of this tree” which means they are already endowed knowledge of “good and bad.” that means “tree of good and bad” is symbolic of something.. since religious organizations interpret this differently, each reader has to adopt his own conclusion.

for me it looks like this: one thinks of good and bad in relation to himself—if something is beneficial for him he would say it is good for him, and bad for him if it is not beneficial.

David_Jay

One has to remember that first and foremost this story was not and never written with the intention that it was to be open to interpretation to other religions and other cultures outside of the Hebrews of Judaism. Second, the narrative of Eden is the prelude to the Torah of the Mosaic Law itself, and it's position in Genesis is not haphazard but foreshadowing.

Keeping these two things in mind may not give anyone identical answers in the end, but it may help some arrive at more logical ones. How? Let's start with the first point, the Jewish intention behind the story.

You have to leave behind the Watchtower beliefs that this is the story of the Fall of Man and that this is an historical account. You also have to totally give up the idea of Satan the Devil being the snake as there is no such being in Judaism to this day.

What you are left with is a story explaining how God deals with a humanity that he loves but that is so truly designed in God's image so much so that they naturally tend not to obey laws, just like a god. The legend seems to be telling us we are built to make our own decisions but have to be taught how to do this first. Otherwise it seems to be built in us to see laws as restrictive, so God has to do something else before reintroducing humanity to laws.

God's laws when rightly understood as introducing us to our own freedom produce benefits and healing. This is what the Jewish sages seem to be explaining in this myth and those that follow this one, but in this myth it is a lesson that must be taught. The Hebrews come to learn this "lesson" during their slavery in Egypt.

The second point is that the legend of the rejecting of God's law in Eden is contrasted with what is supposed to be a historical event* for the nation of Israel: the Theophany at Sinai or the acceptance of God's Law upon themselves as a nation. Adam and Eve say "no" in Eden, but God makes a covenant with descendants of theirs that both recognize God among the nations through Abraham but still wrestle with what they are "told what to do" like Jacob/Israel.

People are made in God's image. Like God we aren't supposed to want to be merely told what to do and blindly obey. God expects the wrestling like with Jacob because we were, after all, created to "be like God, knowing good and evil," but apparently it's part of our evolutionary process, at least the way the Jewish myths tell it.

Again, this story isn't meant to be applicable to humanity in general. The Eden legend is written in such a matter to foreshadow the Sinai event, so even if there was something like this in history, the way it is presented in the Bible is tailored to fit the Jewish obligation to the Mosaic Law. Gentiles are not under such an obligation, so attempts at unraveling the details to apply them to another paradigm might not be very efficacious.

*--It should be noted that the Biblical account of the Theophany at Sinai is composed of maybe two or three different traditions, none of which are the same as Judaism's historical claim of the Theophany. Biblical accounts are rarely historical in modern terms, nor is Christianity's claim that Jews use the Bible as the chief means of preserving history true. There are other authentic Jewish understandings of the Theophany which space and time do not here permit and which can be obtained from other Jewish sources.

41

Why does this forum tolerate Cold steele and his mormonism beliefs ? Who`s next ?

by smiddy in

jw
friends

i thought this forum was for people who were ex jw`s and pro jw`s and the like to debate ,discuss and reasonably talk about our differences ,and sometimes drift off into politics world events and whatever.. however over a period of time i have come across cold steel `s many posts which are nothing more than promoting his mormon religions point of view./beliefs what has that got to do with jehovahs witnesses and the concerns many have with the jw religion.?.

it seems to me he is using this forum to promote his religion and is getting away with it over a long period of time.. how long before other cult religions see this as a springboard for promoting their own religion such as .

sda`s ,christian scientists , christadelphians ,beroean bible students ,etc.etc.. where will it end if he is able to keep doing this ?.

David_Jay

What Smiddy may be making reference to and what some here may not be aware of is that Cold Steel has been making attempts at proselytizing me, personally.

While I am an ex-JW (I had to be raised by an aunt who was a JW from 13 until I was in my 20s), I am also Jewish. While I use what I've learned since my return to Judaism to counter JW teaching here on this forum, Cold Steel has seen it as an opportunity to make several anti-Semitic remarks claiming that all Jews will just have to accept being forced to change their religion and become Mormon. He has directed these comments at me.

This has been done by Cold Steel even though I've have warned him several times not to. I have even checked with the Latter-Day Saints in my area at the branch, ward, and stake level, and his behavior is against LDS policy. Jews are not to be preached to by Mormons under any circumstances because the LDS church built an education center in Israel under a contract agreement with the Israeli government that they will not proselytize Israeli Jews. Since then Mormons have been cautioned to avoid speaking to any Jews about their religion since many of us, like myself, hold multiple citizenship (it is not unusual for a UK or US Jew to also hold Israeli and Spanish or Portugal citizenship simultaneously since our homeland rights have been restored to us by all these countries recently).

Cold Steel has gone beyond this and made some insulting comments towards me about the "need" for Jews to 'get used to' the idea of being proselytized by Mormons, 'because it will happen' as he put it. I've asked him to stop, but he will not.

Unfortunately I cannot provide much more. I've written too much today on this board. I was supposed to stop attempting to write things as I am under doctor's orders to rest and adjust to a medicine treatment for nocturnal epilepsy. I should be fine in about a month to three months, but right now it is hard to manage things.

However I felt I needed to explain Smiddy's concern. Smiddy is not just speaking about Mormons in general sharing their faith on this site. He is speaking about Cold Steel in the act of proselytizing, and not merely proselytizing but engaging in some questionable anti-Jewish (against culture and religion) speech.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Joey jojo

I have found a way to reply via voice-operated computer. I have no way of correcting my typing. I can read, which I have been doing. But sometimes my speech might fail me until the dust settles.

I explained earlier that am being treated for nocturnal epilepsy, and while I can read, due to the medications I just started I cannot type with my hands. It will get worse over the next month to three months or until I am at the full dose range that works for me. My ability is hindered because the dosage is being titrated up daily. I should be fine once this is over however. So this is your last question for now.

The Messiah concept is not central to Judaism like it is to Christianity. It developed post-Biblically, after the first Chanukah and the Hasmonean dynasty took over. According to the Prophets of Scripture, the Davidic line was to regain the throne and not the sons of Judas Maccabeus. From this turn of events in Jewish history the idea developed that the Prophets were speaking of a feature, more idyllic period.

The Hebrew Scriptures themselves, outside of speaking of the sons of David ruling "forever" (which was often metaphorically), never mention an individual called "the Messiah." This term was invented by the Jewish sages of the Second Temple era in discussions on how the oracles of the Prophets might be fulfilled.

There has never been a consensus beyond an agreement in fulfillment. Who or what the Messiah is remains a mystery. Some felt it would be a king. Others a high priest. Some felt there would be two Messiahs, a king and priest. Because of this, the text in Malachi promising the return of Elijah was seen as the answer to this. Upon Elijah's return the Jews would only then indeed learn from him who and what the Messiah is, but not until then.

While several have claimed to be the Messiah over time (we are not responsible for those we rejected like Jesus of Nazareth), there has been only one who came close to having the national recognition necessary for Messiahship: Simon bar Kokhba. He actually revolted and ruled independently from the Romans in 132 C.E. only to be crushed in 135, thus proving he was not the Messiah.

There have been no other national claims (and the claims have to be made by the nation as a whole that we have a new king to count as authentic). Today while many Jews still hope for the arrival of the Messiah, the idea is more abstract. Some do not view the Messiah as a king anymore as it isn't likely anyone will allow a monarchy to have control over them. Others see the concept as a personification of humanity in general, that time where humanity learns to live in peace and harmony with itself.

Regardless, the idea is not central to Judaism nor even necessary. We have no theology of a fall from grace in Eden like Christians and thus no concept of Original Sin passed down from Adam in Judaism. Therefore Jews do not see ourselves as innately sinful and in need of deliverance from sin. This is not a reason for the Messiah in Jewish theology.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Against doctor's orders (because of current health problems) and with some difficulty I felt this deserved a response.

I really hate to say this - and please forgive me if I am over-simplifying, it reminds me of a printing company that had a lot of expectations that it published to the world, and when these expectations weren't fulfilled, they frantically moved the goal-posts around and over-complicated something that should be straight-forward.

You've been hit on the head so many times by the Watchtower, you are confusing the evolution of human society in general with a cult that sets dates for the end of the world and has to keep revising things when things don't materialize as they promise.

The Jews did not begin with the Bible. Solomon's Temple had fallen and the Jews were in Babylonian exile before the Hebrew Scriptures began to be redacted into the shape you see today. We did not get our history or religion or theology or so-called prophecy from these Scriptures. Nor are the Scriptures a book of Jewish history nor is there any such thing as "Bible prophecy" such as Christian believe.

Jews have changed their understanding on things over the 4,000 plus years our culture has existed because our culture is 4,000 plus years old. Evolution is real. We evolved like biological evolution teaches, Judaism teaches that itself must evolve, and we evolve like society does in ways of science, philosophy, mores, etc.

Jews themselves have spent 5000 yrs trying to crystallise the meanings of their own writings...

Uh, no. We didn't base our society or culture or our religion on our writings. That would mean the writings came first. Sorry, but our religion and society came first. These books didn't just write themselves or float down out of the sky or were found buried in upstate New York (sorry Cold Steel). The Davidic dynasty had fallen, we were captives in Babylon, and then we began to write the Bible.

We never set any dates for the end of the world. Never told the world to read our own books. Didn't even write our Scriptures for anyone else but ourselves. Never expected non-Jews to translate them and make up their religions based on them. And we definitely didn't have any "goal posts" set out that we've been having to move around.

I think you are still seeing things through Watchtower-colored glasses. May I suggest you not only remove them but drop them, stomp on them, and burn them.

Now, if you still want to imagine that the Jews based their religion on the Bible as you have suggested, please explain to everyone how a book written by Jews got written before there was Jews. We say that our culture and religion was about to die, and so we began to write these texts in order to preserve these things while we were captives in Babylon without homeland, without temple.

You are too used to the Watchtower lie that religion must be based on Scripture. The real truth is that Scripture is based on religion. Religion came first. Groups that say religions must be based on books are liars.

Now excuse me, my head is buzzing and I need to lie down for three months.

7

Did You Know You Can Have Seizures While You Sleep and Not Know It?

by David_Jay in

i have to take some time off even from some of my favorite activities for a while...that means here...until i can adjust to a new medical therapy.. i just learned today that i have nocturnal epilepsy and have been having seizures almost every night for several decades!

wow!

just started medication that will mess me up when it comes to processing my thinking and typing for a while, so until that straightens out i will just have to read for now.. but look it up.

David_Jay

I have to take some time off even from some of my favorite activities for a while...that means here...until I can adjust to a new medical therapy.

I just learned today that I have nocturnal epilepsy and have been having seizures almost every night for several decades! Wow!

Just started medication that will mess me up when it comes to processing my thinking and typing for a while, so until that straightens out I will just have to read for now.

But look it up. It's crazy. I also may be having other types of seizures too, just didn't know it. You can have them and be conscious at the same time. Looks like I get some of these several times a year too.

Downing some anticonvulsives right now. Good night, shalom, and l'chayim!

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Oh, and that part about God won't pull any strings unless "we" allow it.

The "we" is humanity in general, not just Jews.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Joey jojo,

You are confusing a few subjects due to perhaps lacking a common frame of reference, that is all. But it can prove to be a stumbling block to comprehend what I am saying.

For instance, you mentioned that...

You seem to imply that a reason to believe in God is simply because the Jews exist due to the covenant with God.

I said Jews accept God as real, not that we BELIEVE in God.

Yeah, I know. That may not seem like something different to you, but there is a wide gulf in Jewish life between a belief (what one mentally assents to) and something that just is regardless of one's assent. Whether I believe it or not, you are real, right?

You see, Jews aren't keen on "belief," especially these days. What you are is defined by what you do, not by what you say you are or what you claim to believe in. Most Jews, even the most religious, will tell you that they don't "believe" in God. That's more a Christian thing.

Also no one, including Jews, are God's chosen-over-others. Each race and each person, religious or not, plays a chosen part unique to each. The "chosen" thing in reference to Scripture has to do with ancient language describing our part to play among all others. The Bible is a static picture of a time long past. We have different language and a different understanding for all this today.

And we don't follow Torah or accept the existence of the Patriarchs because the Bible says so. We followed Torah before we wrote the Bible. We have a separate history that we later used a bit of in the Bible, but our history came first. We followed Torah first. We wrote the Bible after Solomon's Temple fell. So you can't ask why our culture accepts all these things in the Bible as we were doing that before there was a Bible.

Plus, the Bible doesn't follow the historical view we have of ourselves. For instance, just read a Passover Haggadah. Notice how the story we tell of our deliverance on Passover night differs from what you read in Exodus. The Bible is the liturgical version, the Haggadah the traditional version, and there is a third historical one too.

There's a lot more to take in that would take you far off track from this site. I'm not here to make any Jews out of anyone or to recommend religion itself to anyone. Consult MyJewishLearning.com if you want to know more about Judaism.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

David_Jay

Cold Steel wrote:

If you believe the Jews borrowed the god language from their Mesopotamian neighbors, that may be true, but how do you -- David Jay -- know that this is how Abraham and Moses comprehended Him?

The Jewish teachings on how Abraham and Moses comprehended God are found in Hebrew academia, history, and tradition, such as the Midrash. These contain views as old or older than those found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Abraham and Lot both knew many of the heathen and Moses was raised an Egyptian. Moses beholds the burning bush and we're left to wonder what this Entity was and why it was drawn towards Israel?

Like the way Hebrew is written from right to left without vowels as opposed to English being written left to right with vowels, your question is a bit Gentile in thought as opposed to the way Jews think. We're not left to wonder what God is, at least the way Jews approach God. God is accepted on God's own terms.

Also, it seems you skipped over my previous answer to you on how since Abraham came to acknowledge something about God that his contemporaries did not, God took a special interest in Abraham's descendants.

And by the way, the Burning Bush is understood by many in Judaism to have been a manifestation of the Shekinah to Moses among the shrubbery on Mt. Sinai.

Many of the Patristic-era fathers left descriptions of this Entity (called "God" for lack of a better term) very similar to how you're describing Him. Such a Being can't really be in the same image as man, nor even really be referred to as a "He" properly since He has no peers nor a mate. In short, He is self-existent and has an intelligence that transcends the Universe. If so, can we be sure He can even be described as El or Eloheim?

You are right.

The term "he" is actually not found in the Hebrew in reference to God. While a masculine pronoun appears, it is only due to syntax requirements. In Judaism, God has no gender. If you notice I never call God "he" or say things like "God himself." I don't even use "King" or "Lord," as those English words have masculine overtones. In Judaism it is actually wrong to ascribe gender to God. Instead of "King" we say "Sovereign," and instead of " Lord" we say "Adonai" or "the Eternal" or "HaShem."

As to being in the "image" of God, this refers to sharing his qualities and abilities, albeit on a far smaller scale. God has no appearance as God does not exist in any form or body, spiritual or otherwise.

God is only described as El and Elohim for a lack of a better term. Those were some of the first and oldest terms for the God of Abraham. G_d and HaShem are among some of the names to be developed for God In relatively modern times. But in the end, Jews as acknowledge God as mystery.

4

The handmaid's tale, possible in a jw controlled world?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

i've been watching "the handmaid's tale" and while disturbing i found it to be doubly so because i kept thinking "if the jws ever got control of a country is this what it would look like?

" especially when it comes to the treatment of women as mere property.

.

David_Jay

The novel is even more shocking and revealing.

In it, a Christian Fundamentalist group is responsible. While you might at first think about Jehovah's Witnesses, because of the political intrigue involved, that quickly gets tossed out the window. The ideals of American Protestant Conservatism which still cling to their Puritan roots is actually what is being portrayed. It is what would happen if a group like America's Moral Majority militarized and organized a coup. Puritanism would be reinstated since American Protestant Conservatism is still based on its theology. The theocracy of this story is also governed by the political-socio rules of a military dictatorship.

In the novel groups like Catholics and Jews are executed--Catholics outright, Jews given a "fake" choice to convert and join Gilead (which is what they now call the country) or leave for Israel, during which they are killed while on the journey.

Though no mention is made of NRMs like Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and Mormons, the impression given is that they either assimilate or are quickly executed if they didn't get a chance to escape. Groups that do not support the military and do not submit to the Puritan theology (which the NRMs do not) are dissolved in this dystopian society.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay