Posts by David

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

Crazyguy,

While everyone is entitled to their views, and indeed, some of the later interpolations of Ezra and Daniel, and writings that did not make into the Tanakh (such as Tobit) show Greek influence, the Hebrew Bible as a whole is a product of the pre-Hellenistic era.

The Tanakh was compiled during the Babylonian exile, in the 500s BCE, when the Jews were cutoff from the world. This was during the end of the era of Archaic Greek society, and the Jews would not encounter the Greeks until the exile ended and the Classical Greek world began.

The Jews would first make contact with Hellenism just prior to the Hasmonean revolt at the end of the 3rd century,3-4 hundred years after the Hebrew Scriptures had been written. The introduction of Chanukah into the Jewish calendar in the 2nd century BCE, marks how late (and originally destructive) this first encounter was.

When Egypt fell to Greece, Hellenistic Jews moved to Alexandria. The Septuagint was the result, but the experiment did not last long. The Septuagint was eventually rejected by Judaism because of this Greek influence upon the text, even though even in the Septuagint it was somewhat minor. To this day Jews regard the Septuagint as a faulty and untrustworthy translation. None of the Greek additions in the Septuagint occur in the accepted Jewish text of the Tanakh. Only the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Church accept these Greek additions as canonical.

36

2017 Memorial Partakers

by NashvilleTele in

when does the number of memorial partakers get released for 2017. i was wondering if the number will surpass 20k.

David_Jay

From my experience back during the 1970s to 1990, the largest number and any increase of anointed has always been in and come from the United States.

The largest number of the "remnant" was associated with Russell in the U.S. in the 1800s. The same was true during the time of Rutherford. From what I remember from reports and discussions with anointed elders during my time, America was still where "Jehovah" had the largest number of anointed.

My educated guess is that the increase today is no different. The idea that recent "third world country converts" are responsible for the increase is unfounded, without backup data, and likely based on cultural and perhaps even racial prejudice that the Watchtower takes advantage of.

There is more a feeling of entitlement in the American culture than in other parts of Western society, not to mention other parts of the world. This would account for increasing to remain popular and steady in the U.S. Since there is no new specific data to go on at present and all we have is the past data to rely on, there is no reason to assume that the American trend has somehow suddenly or will ever change, especially since the culture definitely has not.

While this is just my hypothetical take, I would bet good money that the increase in Memorial Partakers is still in the U.S., and perhaps even among younger white men in positions of privilege of whom the current members of the Governing Body might even find threatening. This would account for the reason of stating these "new" partakers may have "mental issues," for they will surely outlive them and be forced to revise, correct, and even dismiss the current Governing Body's doctrines as foolishness. To avoid others from listening to any of them now, the Governing Body is painting these younger men today as deranged. That is what I would say is really happening.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

But what about Deuteronomy 14:1 and Philippians 3:2? How do Jews account for these two texts in the practice of circumcision?

Deuteronomy 14:1 states that the Israelites were not to "gash" themselves or "shave" their heads to "mourn" the dead. This was because such practices were part of heathen rituals associated with the worship of ancestors as practiced by neighboring nations.

Jews, male and female, have pierced their ears and noses to hang jewelry since antiquity, for example. Other texts required the shaving of the head such as for cleansing after being exposed to skin diseases. So this text in Deuteronomy cannot be used to argue that the flesh cannot be cut for circumcision. It is only speaking about mourning the dead.

As for the text in the New Testament, that is a Christian text that Jews have never accepted on the basis that Jews do not see Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. It was written in the first century C.E., thousands of years after Jews had adopted circumcision, and is therefore irrelevant to Jewish instruction.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

Half banana,

Unlike the stupid stories Jehovah's Witnesses sold as snake oil but claimed were divine, we Jews are not uncomfortable saying the following: "Some of our customs we attribute to God in the Bible are actually pagan."

That's kind of the reason why during the Babylonian exile the priests and scribes changed our historical narrative with a colorful liturgical folklore overlay of religious mythology when composing Bible stories. While this doesn't mean there might not have been some providence behind the events of Jewish history, seeing God's hand in things was more hindsight than anything.

What Witnesses see as a divine history in the Bible is actually a liturgical folklore, like American tales about George Washing chopping down a cheery tree in his youth, the midnight ride of Paul Revere, Johnny Appleseed planting American foliage, and Betsy Ross inventing the first American flag. None of this is fact, but these stories contain cherished truths among Americans. The Bible of the Jews was meant to be the same.

Circumcision may not have had heavenly origins. It may be more barbaric in its invention. Yet the Jews saw a providence in it once in Babylon on how it got woven into the Hebrew culture, and it along with many other practices was kept as a means to preserve our cultural identity. Instead of assimilation (as was the fate of most tiny cultures absorbed by Babylon), giving our cultural practices like circumcision a religious meaning through liturgy (that is the Scriptures) preserved us. Babylon, the mighty nation is no more yet we are still here.

Today some male converts to Judaism are not required to undergo circumcision in some circumstances. There are discussions among teachers about this practice. While I don't see it going away entirely, if at all, don't imagine for one minute that Jews are anything like Jehovah's Witnesses and blindly base their practices on the Bible.

If anything, it has always been the other way around.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

There is no text in the Hebrew Bible that reads or states anything along the lines of circumcision being "a sign" to set Jews apart from Gentiles. Neither does Judaism or any Jew like myself teach that it was supposed to "set us apart" in such a manner.

Circumcision was a common practice of the Mesopotamian world from which the descendants of Abraham sprang. It was practiced for generations long before Abraham was born, centuries before there was a Jewish people. The rite was usually practiced upon males coming of age before going to battle or before taking a wife. It was merely received by Abraham from his culture and passed down to the Jewish world, likely without any of the ceremony mentioned in the Torah.

After the Babylonian deportation, the Jews assigned this custom a religious meaning in their liturgy by means of the Biblical texts. This religious interpretation was new, but not historical by any means.

It was not however a "sign to set them apart" from Gentiles, many of whom also practiced it. As the Genesis narrative makes clear at Genesis chapter 17:11, "it is a sign of the covenant" between God and Abraham, not a sign to differentiate between the Jews and the nations.

The Jews have been well aware since antiquity that the historicity of this sign is only symbolic in Scripture however. The same goes for much of what is written in Torah (such as our celebration of Sukkot or the Festival of Booths, which is currently going on; it did not originate during the time of the Exodus as the Bible narrative says, but comes from Mesopotamian harvest festivals in which harvesters dwelt in booths during the final days of ingathering).

Some Christians, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as others have obviously added a literal interpretation to the texts of the Jews as well as misquoted details that don't even occur at all in Jewish Scripture. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible, Jewish texts, etc., that state that God gave circumcision as a sign to Jews to set them apart from the Gentiles, neither is this a part of our Jewish theology.

23

Translating accurately is really f*&%$ing hard!

by TTWSYF in

i wanted to relay an example that i heard about translating difficulties.

take the 5 word phrase.

"i didn't eat your sandwich".

David_Jay

aOf course both the Orthodox and Jews learn more than merely how to repeat spoken words.

For instance, both Hebrew and Greek school last as long as elementary through high school years in America (and their equivalent in other countries). If you go to public school, you go to Greek or Hebrew school afterwards (the popular comedy film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" highlighted this fact for instamce). As the years go by, the grammar gets more intense and in-depth (as highlighted in the 2009 Coen brothers' film "A Serious Man").

Footnotes in your Hebrew Bible and siddur (prayer book) have philological notations, and philology is also not absent from Greek Orthodox worship. In fact, it's liturgical worship (which is central) is built around around a constant philological catechesis which mirrors the philology upon which the Jewish sages labor over in the Talmud.

The idea that people are reliant upon a clerical class for scholarship that is out of reach of the common person has often lead to tyrannical authoritarian rule in Christendom as well as our shared experience in the Watchtower. Many among the ultra-Orthodox and some of their rabbinate are just as guilt of this tyranny today as well.

(By the way, I am right in Hurricane Irma's path. Signing off. Hitting the road. Take it easy! Shalom!)

23

Translating accurately is really f*&%$ing hard!

by TTWSYF in

i wanted to relay an example that i heard about translating difficulties.

take the 5 word phrase.

"i didn't eat your sandwich".

David_Jay

Actually, learning Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek are relatively simple.

People balk at me whenever I say this, but only if they've been raised Jehovah's Witness or Fundamentalist Christian or Roman Catholic.

If you are Jewish or Greek Orthodox, you regularly use both ancient languages daily along with whatever modern language you speak. Both Jews and Greek Orthodox send their children (and teach any new converts) these languages, from infancy onward. Babes, children, teens and adults are singing and praying and even reading in Biblical Hebrew and Greek everyday.

On average, it takes an adult convert about 90 minutes to learn to identify and pronounce the basic alphabet of each respective Biblical language in religion class. Within a week they will have at least the basic prayer of each religion memorized and understood: the Shema in Hebrew or the Our Father in Greek. In one year they will be able to follow the liturgy of each respective religion in their language, and some will be reading from Scripture unaided by this time in Hebrew or Greek as well.

This means a person can also translate from these languages in this amount of time as well too. And most Jews or Greek Orthodox grow up in their religion. So what does that mean?

Most if not all Jewish and Greek liturgy (services and personal prayer and songs/chants) are in Hebrew if you are Jewish and Greek if you are Orthodox. They are available in your vernacular too, but Hebrew and Greek are always taught side-by-side, often more prominently. If you are Greek Orthodox or Jewish, you generally don't rely on Bible translations therefore or even Bible scholars. You can translate the Bible yourself. Your entire congregation can, as a matter of fact.

Sadly, it has been an issue of control and a wielding of tyrannical power that the Watchtower and some other religions insist that learning Biblical languages is something that lies outside the ability of the average person. It makes people reliant upon clerical masters who tell people that they cannot know any better or teaches them that there are too many complexities to have to decipher if they do try to learn them.

Worse yet, when a reliable ecumenical translation is available that may be free of many or most biases, these are labeled as poison by many of these abusive clergy masters. And again, because these groups are already enslaved to these masters and are told they can know no better or must rely on experts and scholars, they can do little more but act like a dog that has never known it can be treated with kindness, and obey the voice of their masters that kick and abuse them.

Babes are reciting the Shema and Our Father in Hebrew and Greek and speaking English, on their way to never needing a translation to read Scripture just like their parents and grandparents before them because they know that learning another language can be done.

You can do the same. And you don't have to be Jewish or Greek Orthodox or religious to do it. We may not all have the gift of learning a new language as easily as another, but you don't have to be a scholar either. These languages, if you want to learn them, are within your grasp. It's not too hard.

11

The Real Ark of the Covenant May Have Housed Pagan Gods - Haaretz

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

according to the bible, the biblical ark of the covenant contained the ten commandments tablets, but some israeli archaeologists have a different view.. haaretz media site publishes the story:.

the real ark of the covenant may have housed pagan gods.

the holy ark was likely kept in jerusalem for much less time than the bible tells us.

David_Jay

Phizzy,

You would think so, if we Jews were like Fundamentalist Christians or the Watchtower, but no.

This article in Haaretz is talking about data supporting the long-standing Jewish historical account supported by critical and progressive Judaism (and some in Orthodox Judaism) that has always been available in our authoritative publications.

For instance, "The Jewish Study Bible" speaks of this in its footnotes to the Torah books, and you can look this up online on many a religious Jewish source, including Orthodox, and online from JewishEncyclopedia.com to Aish.com to MyJewishLearning.com and Chabad.org. It was even highlighted in detail a few years ago on a famous PBS television series, "The Story of the Jews with Simon Schema" which still has a detailed page about it and can be ordered from Pbs.org.

The Jews understand that God gave the land to Abraham and his descendants, and that Moses gave the Law to unify Israel as a nation to worship this one God, but the Israelites would not. Even when King David made worship of the one God the State religion, the Israelites still refused.

Carried away to Babylon, the Jews believed they lost their land and shrine because of this constant refusal to worship God. There they began to develop what we today know as the Bible. But it is not viewed as a literal historic record.

Also, not all Jews today agree with the current government's treatment of the Palestinian population. Many Jews, like myself, believe they have a claim to the land as well and all should live in harmony there. Except for some fundamentalist Orthodox, most Jews believe the claims of the Bible to the land of Israel somewhat symbolic to stand for each human having a claim to a place on earth to call home.

11

A Reminder of the time when Jerusalem was a Christian City

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.

this is the story of how jerusalem changed into a christian city for a brief period in its history.

how did it happen?

David_Jay

This is why I hate forums. People argue back and forth NOT because they have genuine data, but because it is human nature to not want to be proven wrong. Emotion plays a big part too.

Bungi Bill, I do not now or will ever question your knowledge of ability to know anything. I am sure you are quite intelligent and bright. If you wish to stand by your last post as 100% correct, then I will let you have it.

I only ask that in all fairness you go back and look back at what you offered: Instead of data on what actually occurred involving the Revisionist Zionists leading up to the Palestinian Civil War, you have an EXAMPLE of what happened in other conflicts to compare.

British forces actually had a chance to sit down and work with some of the various Revisionist Zionists factions, something that did not occur in any of the examples you mentioned. It wasn't the limited numbers that was running the British army ragged in this case, it was support from the world community for giving Palestine to the genuine Zionist community that was making things difficult.

And yes, I am aware that the decision had been made far in advance for Britain to the Civil War to create a state homeland for the Jews. Good grief, they are one of the nations that suggested it to the UN!

I know my own people's history. I happen to be Israeli-American after all. I know about this war, the Six Day War, yadda yadda yadda. Uh, you know it's required for me to know this stuff just to belong to my synagogue.

But that doesn't matter, does it? There will be another counter argument or a statement on how I take thing too seriously or something...anything to take the spotlight off the fact of the enigma of it all.

Like everything else Jewish, like even the Bible, the Gentiles always come around and say they know more than we do about it and that we don't know our own Scriptures or our own history, and some might even say we imagined our time in the concentration camps. Sheesh, even the Jehovah's Witnesses re-write the date when Solomon's Temple fell! We Jews got the date wrong. Thanks Christians and world of Gentiles!

So, there's no use. I'll never be right. My years of learning Hebrew, of studying my own people's history, of walking the Holy Land, of being a part of Jewish-Christian dialogue, none of it matters. People don't want facts. You win! Your post is right, mine is wrong. I know nothing about my own history. And there wasn't even someone known as Simon bar Kokhba. So forget about that and 135 CE too.

It's like that Fundamentalist lady who was trying to convert me to Christianity said to me. She showed me a text from the Old Testament that she said "plainly showed that the Messiah was Jesus," but I said no, and she replied with a smile: "Aw, but what do Jews really know about the Old Testament?"

I give up.

11

A Reminder of the time when Jerusalem was a Christian City

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.

this is the story of how jerusalem changed into a christian city for a brief period in its history.

how did it happen?

David_Jay

I didn't say there wasn't terrorism on the part of many Zionists. Read back, I mentioned two of the Revisionist Zionist groups by name.

But it was denounced by the Jews and the official Zionism movement which fought against it with British forces to do away with these groups. Both the British army and the Jewish Agency (which became the State of Israel) was betrayed by Haganah, a group that started out as a terrorist faction, then sides with British forces and the official Zionism movement, but then rebelled and and stood with the Revisionist forces in the end.

Britain was eager to come to a peaceful agreement with the Jewish Agency and the Zionists until the Civil War broke out between the Arabs and Revisionist Zionists. The British forces left and the Jewish Agency and Zion was forced to side with the Revisionists. Haganah, however, made some peace by then with Zion and with its British training helped turn the war in the direction it ended. But not all Jews were involved in the terrorism. That's like saying your lack of knowledge of Bar Kokhba was accurate too.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay