Posts by David

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

As I said in a previous post, I don't like to debate anymore, but if you so desire, Dr. White does like to both teach and debate and does so all the time, often televised or recorded. And unlike me he is an excellent teacher. He can be reached at Alpha & Omega Ministries. I hope that helps.
Freeman

How do you know Dr White is correct?

I on the other hand am Jewish. I don't even believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. I have no invested interest in any set conclusions as Dr White does. You value his word and recommend him to a Jew, why? To proselytize a Jew? Because Dr White supports your argument? Because academia is behind Dr White?

Again, I have no investment in Christianity. I only know Koine Greek well enough to help and do know what mainstream academia teaches. I didn't offer my opinion and have no interest in having some Christian ministry attempt to proselytize me away from my culture, way of life, people, land, or religion.

I was only offering some objective assistance.

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

Sorry, had to go and come back. So before I forget:

This Word fellow is just as old as the Jehovah fellow and both of them are older then dirt!

Actually this isn't what is being said in John 1:1.

KAI HO LOGOS EEN HO PROS TON THEON KAI THEOS EEN HO LOGOS

"...and the Word was set towards God, and God was the Word."

Or, "and the Word was coming up to the side [rib] of God, and God it was."

In Genesis chapter 2, the Hebrew word for Adam's rib literally means "side" as in a building's side wall. The Greek word PROS in this sentence describes a motion, meaning to comes to God's side, not merely to be with, to move towards God as to become one with God as Adam did with his wife.

This explains the last part which Jehovah's Witnesses find unacceptable: "...and God was the Word."

The verse is attesting that Jewish monotheism has not been abandoned in Christology. In fact, it would not be until the 4th century. The only difference during John's day is that Jesus was now identified with God as God's Incarnation.

Again the age of Jesus is not being spoken of here. It is the nature of Jesus and his identification with God. There is no time factor in these words.

48

Paradise? Was it?

by TerryWalstrom in

paradisewas it really paradise to be in paradise?adam and eve never were held by a mother, never cuddled and sung to with a lullaby nor nursed or coddled with tenderness or any human familial embrace.

the first humans (adam and eve) never learned to toddle surrounded by brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and grandparents cheering them on.

the entire experience of childhood was excised surgically like a trauma patient awakening from an accident with amnesia.adam and eve were never in a neighborhood with other kids forming friendship bonds for life and exchanging dreams and hopes for a future they were building in their community.

David_Jay

Terry,

Expressing opposite and divergent views in question form towards me but merely saying it is "not argumentative" does not magically make something not argumentative.

That's like putting poison in my drink and saying "there's no poison in it." Merely saying the words doesn't magically make it so and take the poison away.

You were argumentative, regardless.

Whatever you call it, if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I thought you no longer believed in things invisible. Hmmm. Seems to me you do. Looks like you believe in something that doesn't exist--the fact that you were not arguing with me. Belief in the unreal is still alive and kicking in you, but it is just coming out when you find it convenient. Whatever.

It's your life, and who am I to judge?

I'm finished with this thread however.

16

Ok I feel like a dumb ass. Men have one less rib than women..

by James Mixon in

why in the hell would we (men) have one less rib...help me folks the adam and eve story has screwed up my thinking...

David_Jay

The Hebrew word translated "rib" from Genesis 2:21 is TSELA.

It occurs 61 in the Jewish Bible and does not really mean "rib" as in bone at all. It means "side" as in "wall" of a building.

The narrative of Genesis 2 is the second of four origin stories in Genesis, the oldest of all of them.

In Genesis chapter 1, the one developed during the Babylonian exile, man and woman are not named Adam and Eve, not placed in Eden, and are created simultaneously. But in the oldest origin narrative, the first human pair have names, Adam and Eve, and Adam gets created first. Eve gets created from Adam's TSELA, often rendered "rib" but really meaning part of his entire side of his body, his flesh and bone (compare Genesis 2:23).

The narrative is allegorical, as are all the others (otherwise there would be only one if this were a factual history lesson). It explains why the man yearns to "cling" to his wife as mentioned in verse 24 and again become as "one flesh." It's a religious allegory, not a scientific or medical explanation of nature.

The use of TSELA is appropriate since God "builds" the woman from the man much like someone builds a "wall" or TSELA for a literal building. It's Hebrew word play.

I do laugh about the days when as a Witness teenager when we used to have the weekly congregation book study, I don't remember which book it was exactly, but this subject came up, and I remember a certain brother W___ who went into a long speech claiming he came across a "scientific article" that "proved" men had one less rib than women, "thus vindicating the Bible account of creation!" What baloney! Brother W___ always had a load of crap like that to sell when he had an answer to give at a study or meeting.

I wonder if the conductor ever caught me rolling my eyes...

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

I am well versed in New Testament (Koine) Greek. While the words can be constructed to be very exact, the language itself is very flexible and fluid.

EN ARKHE was borrowed by the author of John 1:1 from the Septuagint from Genesis 1:1 where that phrase is used to render the Hebrew word BERESHIT. The word in Hebrew means "when," as in "at the outset" or "in the beginning."

It is not original to Greek at all. It is a Mesopotamian idiom used in ancient mythology to start stories of folkloric cosmology, and does not have any reference to time or eternity. In the New Jewish Publication Society's translation of Genesis 1:1, as well as the NRSV and the Catholic NABRE, BERESHIT is translated "When" as in "When God created the heavens and earth." This because it has no reference to time, as in the traditional and less correct "in the beginning."

In Koine Greek ARKHE means "foremost" or "first" as in "first in line." It is the Greek word for a chief, magistrate, or king. It also stands for the first person who gets to a place first, like a winner in a race. It doesn't, however, refer to a start of time.

EN is merely a preposition which here can mean "in," "inside," or "at." EN ARKHE EEN HO LOGOS simply means "At the beginning [as mentioned in Genesis 1:1] was the Word."

It doesn't say the Word was existing before time in any of this. None of the words in John chapter 1 in Greek are speaking of time because there were no such concepts back then as we understand them now.

The concepts of eternity as understood in Christology today entered much later into the church around the time the New Testament was canonized, maybe even before that shortly after the death of the apostate Marcion of Sinope. But many scholars state it was not fully formed until the 4th century with the possibility that John 1:3 was a late editorial anti-Arianism change inserted into the original text.

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

berrygerry,

No, the God of Abraham is very unlike the Native American concepts of deity. Jewish monotheism is hard to define to Westerners as they are used to Christianity defining God by creeds and doctines, whereas Judaism does not do this.

All Jews hold that God gave us the Ten Commandments. Some Jews see this as coming directly from God, others see it as coming through humans.

In Jewish thought the light of God exists in all creation, animate and inanimate, human and animal. Whenever something or someone fulfills God's purpose, some of that light gets released out into the universe to illuminate the world. So whether the Ten Commandments were written directly by God or by humans, the end result is the same in Jewish thought. They are God's commandments for Israel either way.

13

Who is "The" Creator ? Jehovah or Jesus ?

by smiddy3 in

is jehovah the creator ?.

apparently jehovah created the "word" or "logos" ( jesus).

and he never created anything else according to bible scripture.. however the first born of creation the logos /jesus was used to create everything else in the material world.. so then isn`t jesus also a creator ?.

David_Jay

My post is not an attack or insult.

As you wrote, this is a discussion board. So I am doing just that. And I'm glad you appreciate that.

Your question is: "Who is the Creator? Jehovah or Jesus?"

That is like asking: "What is your favorite food? Raw fish or liver?"

Not everyone has a favorite food. Not everyone likes raw fish or liver, and giving only those two choices is limiting, right?

I was merely pointing out that the question was limiting, as if I asked: "Which of the High Holy Days do you prefer the most?"

If you are not Jewish and don't observe the High Holy Days, the question is limiting and hard (if not impossible) to answer.

I am an ex-JW too, but not all of us are from the same cultural, Christian, theist background or share the same values just because we were once Jehovah's Witnesses.

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

By the way...

The teaching in Christianity has a name: ex nihilo. It's ecclesiastical Latin for "out of nothing."

There are some theological hypotheses pushing the envelope on this as of recent, but ex nihilo remains the general rule in Christian thought: God created the universe out of nothing, ex nihilo.

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

berrygerry,

There is no change in this teaching, though the Christian view is more naive that the Jewish view.

The Christian view is that God is an actual deity, as in Zeus or Hermes. but Jews reject the concept of deities.

In Judaism, the universe is a result or effect of something. The universe had a Cause and that Cause is far greater than the concept of deities worshipped by Gentiles. Jews did borrow the language for deities to describe this Cause, but this Cause is ineffable.

Humanity can communicate, has feelings and emotional ties, so this Cause has these and far, far greater. Jews also tend to accept that this Cause employed the Big Bang and evolution to bring forth the cosmos as we know it.

Jews cannot say exactly how God made the material universe, but our tradition has taught that God was alone before anything existed and will be alone again as God once all is gone again. This doesn't exclude the possibility of an eternal afterlife for us, but God is so transcendent in Judaism that God can be spoke of in these terms.

33

The Creation of Jesus

by berrygerry in

seeing a trinity thread.. can a jw apologist explain what (not who) is jesus?.

prior to the creation of everything 13.7 billion years ago (draw close book), jehovah created jesus as his firstborn, his only-begotten.. there was nothing else - no stars, no dust, no matter - just jehovah - and then, just jehovah and jesus.

so, what was jesus?.

David_Jay

berrgerry,

If I remember my Watchtower theology correctly, Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that God is "pure energy." They believe that God is limited to the space-time continuum, what in Christianity is called existence on the "temporal" plane. Jehovah's Witnesses believe in everlasting life but not "eternity" like Christianity or as we do in Judaism.

The Witnesses believe that God is a spirit, with a spirit mind that exists in a spirit body that dwells in a spirit place or location called "heaven." To them God is experiencing time move along with us.

In Judaism and Christianity God is not in the space-time continuum. In Christianity they call the plane "eternity" as compared to the "temporal." In Judaism we do not define God's existence but state that God is ineffable, yet agree God is also eternal. While Christianity tends to see God in more of a naive deity form than Judaism, both of us understand God as omnipresent since God is not bound by time or space. This means the past, present and future is present to God immediately, all at once, and has always been/is/will always be. This also means God is not bound by a body or lives in a "place" since God isn't inside the universe that God created.

Witnesses have no definitive theology on exactly how Jesus (Michael the Archangel) was created, but Trinitarians do have a formal creed regarding how God the Son was created. It differs markedly from Witness theology so significantly that there is no vocabulary in Witness religion to compare it with.

In the Nicene Creed, for one example, Jesus is described as being "begotten of the Father before all ages. Light from light, true God from true God, begotten [but] not made, consubstantial with the Father." This is one specific formula, the very specific wording of which can divide denominational lines.

Witnesses haven't formulas, but at the same time have wild theories that compose a somewhat ad hoc religious system, easily tossed out and replaced when a hole in a theory become too widely pronounced to ignore.

And while you are correct that Witnesses often say that God took some of himself to create Jesus, this is hard to prove from Scripture. The consensus of theologians both Christian and Jew is that the Bible teaches that God produced all creation from nothing. If Jesus is a creation, this teaching of the Witnesses is paradoxical. If Jesus is made from God, then the Nicene Creed is true, that Jesus is indeed "Light from Light, true God from true God."

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay