I don't think there is any one group, religious or otherwise, that will give you the truth you search for. However, your search might still yield something good if you change the criteria of your search. To avoid hijacking this thread, I have composed another which considered why your search, especially as noted in your profile, might be flawed to begin with.
David_Jay
JoinedPosts by David_Jay
-
101
Are Gods true worshippers on Earth today? If they are not JWs then who are they?
by Formerbrother inis there gods true worshipers on earth today as jesus said there would be?
if they are not jws then who are they?.
who else comes close to being gods true followers today?.
-
-
-
24
The Bible or God? - A Message to Formerbrother
by David_Jay in“i still can not find any other option that comes as close to all the bible as jws do.”-- from the profile of formerbrother.. this is lengthy, but it should help you, formerbrother.
the problem is not in your search for this "option" but that you are searching according the criteria set out by the jehovah’s witnesses (and likely following the reasoning set out by their claims).. before proceeding, understand clearly (as there will always be someone reading this that will skip this point that i make) that i am not writing to advance any particular religious view.
though raised and baptized as a jehovah’s witness in my late teen years, i am jewish.
-
-
David_Jay
“I still can not find any other option that comes as close to ALL the Bible as JWs do.”-- from the profile of Formerbrother.
This is lengthy, but it should help you, Formerbrother. The problem is not in your search for this "option" but that you are searching according the criteria set out by the Jehovah’s Witnesses (and likely following the reasoning set out by their claims).
Before proceeding, understand clearly (as there will always be someone reading this that will skip this point that I make) that I am not writing to advance any particular religious view. Though raised and baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness in my late teen years, I am Jewish. I wasn’t aware of my Jewish heritage as a child because I was raised mostly by my aunt (no blood relation) who was a JW. And not learning about my place in Judaism or my connection to my country Israel until almost 10 years after my baptism, I progressed quite quickly to become a ministerial servant and regular pioneer until I learned my baptism as a Witness was not technically valid due to former ties.
I am back to being a Jew now, and as such I am not involved in proselytizing or any attempt to get you to give up Jesus, join my religion (Jews don’t engage in evangelizing), or even trying to get you to believe in God. I am not here to offer an apology to prove the Bible. (And as such I am not here to argue against those who are atheist and/or agnostic.)
So hopefully you can understand my objectivity in an attempt to tell you that your search for “an option” won’t get very far until you examine your very search itself.
Taking for Granted Your Views
Thus I am taking for granted some of your views (and you can correct me if I am wrong), but I gather that:
- You believe in God.
- You believe in the Bible as God’s Word.
- You believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.
- You believe in serving God according to God’s purpose.
Remember, as a Jew I would not necessarily share all your views and convictions, but let’s say for the sake of argument all the above are true. You want to find the “option” to being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, to find the “right” or “true” religion, yes?
Now even though I am a Jew, I don’t believe that my religion is the “only true religion,” and in fact Jews don’t actually have a concept like that in the sense that Jehovah’s Witnesses do. And since Jews don’t proselytize, I have no desire or reason to point you in the direction of any faith in particular. Unless you are Hebrew, I am not going to recommend Judaism, and Jews aren't in the business of converting members for Christian groups. So none of that is not going to happen here. After I’ve said my peace, you will still have to find an answer to the question of what to join or where to go.
Yet as I have pointed out before, there is a problem with your search. And that is what we need to discuss. Until you get this problem cared for, you will never find what you are looking for.
Revelation: It’s Not Just the Last Book in the Bible
Again, for the sake of argument I am taking for granted your views, okay? There is that other thread you started (Are Gods true worshippers on Earth today? If they are not JWs then who are they?) where people can (and are) challenging what you are looking for. This is not the thread for that.
What you need to do first is examine the criteria for which you are basing your search. If there is a God, and Jesus is the Christ, the promised Messiah, the Savior of the world, and the Sacred Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, you need to ask yourself: Are the Sacred Scriptures (the Bible) the starting point?
This is important because you are looking for an “option that comes as close to ALL the Bible as JWs do.” This means that you are looking for those people or religion or path that follows “ALL the Bible” and what it says. That means your ultimate source of revelation is Scripture.
Now, Jehovah’s Witnesses usually don’t use the term “revelation” like the rest of theologians in the world do (that is Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc.). It’s more than the final book in the Christian Greek Scriptures however. The term actually means “the supernatural disclosure of divine or transcendent truth” which in this case comes from the God of Abraham, the God of the Scriptures, the one preached by Jesus Christ.
For Jehovah’s Witnesses that ultimate source of revelation is the Bible. All that one should do to serve God, the basis for one’s belief, the source of all truth is, for Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Bible. I assume this is what you still believe, am I correct?
But are you aware that for Christianity and Judaism the Bible is not, nor has ever been the source of divine revelation. While these two religions believe the Bible is “a” source of revelation from God, they do not believe it is the ultimate source.
Theophany and Epiphany
The religion of the Jews existed for millennia before the Hebrew Scriptures were written. Christianity likewise arose and spread before one letter of the Christian Greek Scriptures was written down.
By the time the Hebrew Scriptures became a source of religious training, the Babylonian exile had come to an end. The Hebrew Bible would not even be settled in the form currently accepted by Christianity and Jehovah’s Witnesses until the Masoretes of the 6th century CE. And by the time Christians first declared there was a “New Testament,” it was Easter of 367 CE. For both religions, Scripture was an afterthought, a product and not the basis of either movement.
Then how did they begin? Abraham did not find the Bible and decided to worship God after reading it. The apostle Paul never came across any of the written Gospel accounts before being baptized as a Christian (in fact, he evidently wrote most of his letters before any of the Gospels were written). Without Scripture the Jews were redeemed from slavery to Egypt and brought to the Promised Land. Without the Christian Scriptures both Paul and Timothy set out on spreading the good news of Jesus Christ and God’s Kingdom. The Bible, as we know it, did not exist.
So the Scriptures can’t be the basis for true religion, because the true religion of God started in both instances before there was Scripture. In fact, both Judaism and Christianity were up and functioning with large numbers of followers before they produced (I repeat, “produced”) the Scriptures. These religions are not based on the Bible. No, these religions invented the Bible.
They were both based on the ultimate form of revelation: contact with God. The Jews had Abraham and the patriarchs who met God and experienced direct communication with God. Generations later, their offspring would as a nation be gathered to witness God on Mt. Sinai, an event known as “the Great Theophany.” These “theophanies” or manifestations of God are what the Jewish faith is based on.
Christianity is based on the Epiphany in Jesus Christ. An “epiphany” is when God manifests through someone or something else. In this instance God came to people in the Person of Jesus Christ. This is what is illustrated in Thomas’ exclamation when, upon witnessing the risen Christ and getting to examine the marks on his body made by the nails used in his death, he said to Jesus: “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) All arguments about the Trinity aside, Thomas was exclaiming that he was experiencing an epiphany. God stood before Thomas and was (and had been for some time) speaking to him in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth though Thomas did not realize until then that God was present in Jesus.--Compare John 14:8-10.
These theophanies and the epiphany in Jesus are what these religions are based upon. Are they enough?
Did Jesus Establish a Book or a Church?
Now as a Jew I am way out in the water, so to speak, to say what I am about to here. But as a Jew even I know the answer to this one. Jesus never stated: “Assemble the Jewish writings and compose new ones and make them into one book. And have people study it and learn what is within. This is the source of truth for all who would believe. They that study the book and follow what is written in it shall have everlasting life, but those who do not or misrepresent its words shall not find life. Go, and distribute among the nations this book of truth to all.”
Nope. Christian truth is not based on a book. Even the Christian Greek Scriptures have Jesus saying: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) The way, the truth, the life, all these are found and based upon a Person, not a book. The ultimate form of revelation for Christianity is and has always been Jesus Christ.
Jesus did not write anything down, nor did he command his followers to take the Jewish Scriptures and add new ones to make a book that would be the ultimate source of salvific truth. Nope, didn't happen.
The Church: The Pillar and Foundation of the Truth
But Jesus did establish a congregation (or “church,” which is the older and more common English term). Jesus said to Peter: “I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (Matthew 16:18) And again the Christian Scriptures teach: “God's household, which is the church of the living God, [is] the pillar and foundation of the truth.”--1 Timothy 3:15.
Did you note that “the pillar and foundation of the truth” is not the Scriptures but the congregation or Church the Jesus founded? It is a living, breathing group of people that possess the truth, that possess Jesus in and among them. With Jesus as the only way, only truth, and only life the Church can possess, the Church made up the foundation for all that people needed to be Christians.
The Church only gradually assembled the works of Paul and the Gospels and other writings into a collection. They recognized them not as the source or foundation of their religion but a further facet of divine revelation in written form (that they used mainly liturgically to proclaim the message of God in public worship). Together with the teaching of the Church inherited from the apostles and traditionally passed down through the ages, and with the authority the Church had from Jesus, the Church canonized the Scriptures into the book you accept as inspired of God. The Church had to get its authority from somewhere to do this, and obviously it had more authority than the Scriptures in order to assemble them and close the canon after doing so.
Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Rest of Christianity
Therefore if you search the way Jehovah’s Witnesses do, you will search for a religion or option that follows the Bible as its basis. But Christianity has Jesus Christ as its basis. Not everything Jesus taught his Church is found in Scripture, which even Scripture declares. (John 20:30, 21:25) Since there is no command in Scripture to even assemble and canonize the Scriptures (or even the criteria needed to do so), obviously the Church as “the pillar and foundation of the truth” has more “truth” than the Bible (otherwise how could it do these things).
Jehovah’s Witnesses say: “Our religion is based on the Bible.”
Christianity says: “Our religion is based on Jesus Christ.”
Which is better? Is the ultimate source of truth the Bible? Or is it Jesus? Does the Bible say itself is “the way, the truth, and the life” or does it say this of Jesus? Does the Bible claim to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth” or does it say this of the Church?
So if you do like Jehovah’s Witnesses, you will only be using the Bible as your criteria for your search. Jesus is not the founder of a publishing company or a book. He founded a Church which itself is founded upon Jesus Christ.
Should you be looking for an "option" that is based upon the Bible or something greater?
The Jewish Source
As mentioned before, Judaism is based on the theophanies given to our forebears and the Great Theophany at Sinai. And the Bible does not contain our doctrines and theology (though it is reflected in what is written in the Hebrew Scriptures). Instead one finds our doctrines and theology in the Mishnah. Scripture contains the stories of our faith, the Mishnah the doctrine of our faith, but neither is the source of our faith. That source, that basis is God.
Which is a greater form of revelation? The Bible or God? Which came first? The religion that produced the Hebrew Scriptures or did the Hebrew Scriptures just pop into existence by itself? The Bible did not write itself. Those who wrote it had to have “the true religion” if, as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim, the Bible is the basis for all true religion.
If the writers of Scripture did not have the true religion before they wrote the Scriptures, then the Scriptures cannot be the basis for true religion. If the writers had the true religion before they wrote the Scriptures, then the Scriptures are not the basis for true religion.
Therefore if you are using the Bible as the basis for this “option,” you are starting from a very flawed premise. If you begin with a flaw, you will end with a flaw.
-
11
EXPOSED: The insular world of Israeli Jehovah's Witnesses
by darkspilver inthere's been discussion on this forum about the wt's preaching campaigns in israel - here's an interesting article with pictures.
a rare glimpse into the insular world of israeli jehovah's witnesses.
the state refuses to recognize them and they have been victims of harassment.
-
-
David_Jay
Jehovah's Witnesses may like to believe they are the "mix of Judaism and Christianity," and I've heard them use this term for themselves before.
But in reality, there are still members of the original Jewish Christian movement that exist. The Jerusalem Church was dissolved in 135 CE when the Romans dismissed all Jews from Jerusalem after crushing the Bar Kokhba rebellion. While it is not clear what exactly happened to Bishop Judas Kyriakos himself who was leading the Church at that time, the congregants eventually got absorbed into other churches via the resulting Diaspora.
Some of my ancestors may have been members of the original Jerusalem Church (or so I've recently learned via a group studying the history of Crypto/Sephardic Jews), and today there are pockets of Jewish Christians around the world, though their numbers are miniscule. The Catholic Church has a sizeable number of these. Known there as "Hebrew Catholics," they observe a practice similar to what is described at Acts 21:20 while remaining fully approved members of the Roman Catholic Church.
"Messianic Jews" aren't in this group, by the way, because they are Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals who believe that Jews must accept Christ (or "burn in hell," as one of them told me would happen if I didn't "accept Christ as my personal Savior"), and generally advocate adherence to the Mosaic Law even for Gentile Christians. They number more than 60% Gentiles in their membership.
People like the Hebrew Catholics and other similar Jews are the real "mix of Judaism and Christianity," and there is even a parish of Hebrew-speaking Catholics in Israel that lives relatively peacefully among the Jews. I know some other Jewish Christians here in the US very well, and believe me, Watchtower religion doesn't come close at all.
-
11
EXPOSED: The insular world of Israeli Jehovah's Witnesses
by darkspilver inthere's been discussion on this forum about the wt's preaching campaigns in israel - here's an interesting article with pictures.
a rare glimpse into the insular world of israeli jehovah's witnesses.
the state refuses to recognize them and they have been victims of harassment.
-
-
David_Jay
It's true. Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed victims of harassment in Israel. I'm a Jew, and I know firsthand that this is true.
And Catholics are also the victims of harassment, as are Protestant Christians.
Muslims get harassed too.
And sometimes Ashkenazi Jews get harassed by Mizrahi Jews, and vice versa.
And then sometimes Avi Cohen's dad gets chased down the road by the mean old fat lady on his street who beats him with a broom if he gets too close to her house. One time she drew blood from a good womp to his head!
You get the picture?
It's the Middle East, it's Israel, it's a hotbed and powder keg. You go in there with a match, things are bound to go BOOM!
Mine you, I personally am for freedom of conscience for everyone, everywhere, even in Israel. A lot of Israelis feel the same. I do not appreciate proselytizing there or here because this type of religious activity is not merely "sharing some good news." It's about being taught that your religion and culture are part of the Devil's plot to blind you, and that unless you change these things about you (your religion and culture), you will die any moment now, at a time that is "just around the corner," when God shall come and destroy the rest of the inhabitants living in Israel (who, by the way, if you are a Jew are literally your flesh end blood). God will destroy them for being, well, Jewish, and erase every trace of their Jewish world.
So, guess what? In that part of the world people aren't content to merely sit at a computer and anonymously give their angered opinion about the activity and goals of the Witnesses. Again, it's the Middle East. In that culture we get in your face and take it upon ourselves to stop you.
After all, this is Israel, and it was established after the Holocaust for the main purpose of preventing something like the Holocaust from ever again destroying the Jewish people and their culture. You want to proselytize in Israel with the message of Jehovah's Witnesses that tells you to stop being Jewish, religiously and culturally? Mmm, okay.
Even the LDS church (Mormons) forbid their members from proselytizing or even discussing or distributing materials to Israelis. It is an official decree from the top down. Even in the USA, the other day when a pair of Mormon missionaries knocked on my door and, after a moment of talk realized I was Israeli, they stopped their presentation, changed track, asked a few questions about what Jews believed, then asked if I need help with anything in my home because outside of their preaching work they "also do public service, no strings attached." I said no, thanked them, and they left, never to return. That is their policy.
A Hasidic Jew once ran through marchers at a gay parade in Israel (openly gay life is quite celebrated there). He had a knife and went through crowds stabbing people. The first year he wasn't caught, but they got him the second year when he started doing the same thing.
It's Israel. Everybody gets harassed by somebody. It's never right. It has to stop, but the Witnesses are not special targets. And unless they change like the Mormons (there's a Mormon center in Jerusalem, if memory serves me right), I don't see their ministry ever being fully accepted.
-
44
The Jewish perspective of the OT according to poster David_Jay
by deegee ini note your comments in the following threads regarding the jewish perspective on certain old testament (ot) events:.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5700922233585664/when-you-stop-think-about-why-would-gods-chosen-people-old-testament-need-army?page=1&size=10 ,.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6065451475927040/why-didnt-god-also-reveal-himself-canaanites-just-he-did-moses-burning-bush.
-
-
David_Jay
Tor,
It's not the last of me. I know what it is like to be a Jehovah's Witness. I was one myself for about a decade. I also know what it is like to leave everything and everyone behind.
But I didn't leave because of any of their false doctrines or failures. My aunt was raising me during my teen years, and she was one of Jehovah's Witnesses and that is how I got mixed up with them. I had no idea I was Jewish at the time (nor why Hebrew came so naturally to me whenever the language came up in Watchtower publications--I grew up speaking a rare Jewish language called "Ladino" which is based on Hebrew). But once I learned who I was and that I got baptized while still having connections to Judaism and even the State of Israel, I made the decision to leave. I told no one, but I began preparing to leave with a set date, prepared a place for me in the real world, learned what I needed to in order to return to my people, and left exactly as I planned without looking back. One day I was a ministerial servant and regular pioneer giving a talk from the platform, the next day I had moved out of the flat I shared with my best JW friend who was like a brother to me.
No one came after me once they learned why I left. No one talked to me or looked me in the face if I ever passed them on the street. And they spread vicious rumors about why I left after I was gone and chose to believe these instead of the truth.
But I didn't leave because of anything bad they did or taught or because I predicted this horrible behavior of theirs (I knew they would handle it the way they did). No, I left because I am an honest person...or at least try to be. I also strive to be a man of honor.
It has been said that in a certain way Jews don't have "beliefs" in the same way Christians do. For Jews it is not believing in a creed with a faith free of doubt that matters. For Jews it is how you live your life day to day. To me it doesn't matter what creed you make claim to, even if you hold on to Watchtower theology. What matters is how you live your life.
It is not honest to stay in a group you are not really a part of, especially if they expect you to adhere to a creed with belief above and beyond reason. It isn't honest to them or to you, especially you, because these people won't love you unless you adhere to their creed with some static notion of belief.
The way Jews see it, living honestly is more righteous than believing in things with all your heart but living a lie. It's what you do that matters because the world is effected by your actions. True, your convictions are where things start, but many people fail to live up to their creed of choice when put the test. So what you say you believe and what you put faith in while all is peaceful is not really a good measure of what you really are when the time calls for courageous action.
Easier said than done, I know, and of course I can't really tell you what to do or judge you for staying or leaving. But you don't have to believe in God to be godly. As a Jewish proverb states: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you." When good people don't do what is good, what is right, what is honest, God disappears. God isn't there in a person's claim to faith in God. God is there when you do (not just believe in) something good. An atheist can therefore be the greatest example of God sometimes this way while a theist can be the worst. Whatever you do, may it be more than static belief in something good, may it be doing something good.
-
9
Second Temple Judaism's Iranian Connections - something to think about
by fulltimestudent inthe jw's (and many other christians) believe that their religious beliefs are derived from yhwh who personally taught men of old the truth.. this view is not supported by evidence, on the contrary, when we consider the religious beliefs of neighbouring peoples, we can find evidence that the jewish elite were influenced by the religious beliefs of their surrounding neighbours.. this short video purports to demonstrate a connection between jewish thinking at the start of second temple judaism and the iranians who practised zoroastrianism.
.
i (at this time) find the suggestion that the jews conflated their yhwh with the zoroastrian divinity somewhat difficult, but its worth thinking about.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglgcnjz7_8&t=269s.
-
-
David_Jay
Ruby456,
It depends on the Jew, I suppose. Since the culture and religion are not based upon the Scriptures (the Scriptures are a product and not the basis of foundation of our beliefs and society), and since those Jews who are literalist often also believe that the Torah predates the Exodus, Moses, even Abraham and the foundation of the world, the religious aspect of Judaism is really a facet of that relativism. Judaism is not an exercise in being in static form like Christianity, for example, outside of some forms of Orthodoxy.
In fact, the latest and fastest growing movement among Jews since the end of the 20th century is the post-denominational, post-rabbinical movement. To a degree one might say this demonstrates very much its ability to bend with the times.
Of course there are also the humanitarian (secularist) Jews, and they might be said to be in the forefront of things along with the religious Reform Jews.
-
44
The Jewish perspective of the OT according to poster David_Jay
by deegee ini note your comments in the following threads regarding the jewish perspective on certain old testament (ot) events:.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5700922233585664/when-you-stop-think-about-why-would-gods-chosen-people-old-testament-need-army?page=1&size=10 ,.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6065451475927040/why-didnt-god-also-reveal-himself-canaanites-just-he-did-moses-burning-bush.
-
-
David_Jay
John_Mann,
Actually the idea of the "five-facet" soul is more an aspect of Jewish mysticism and Chassidic thought. Jewish ideas regarding the soul as an immaterial, immortal aspect of humans belongs to the realm of Jewish philosophy and late Hebrew theological speculation. The immediacy of this concept held by some Jews (definitely not all) cannot be made directly from Scripture.
As such it is out of the realm of the purpose of this thread, which is to offer a Jewish perspective on the "Old Testament." While Chassidic teachers often saw the various words in Hebrew as indicative of five separate facets of the soul, this idea is by no means universal to Judaism.
If you are interested in learning more from the source, you need to look up Chabad, an Orthodox Hassidic movement. Chabad has a unique outreach program and various websites and programs to introduce people to Jewish Hassidic thougnt.
-
9
Second Temple Judaism's Iranian Connections - something to think about
by fulltimestudent inthe jw's (and many other christians) believe that their religious beliefs are derived from yhwh who personally taught men of old the truth.. this view is not supported by evidence, on the contrary, when we consider the religious beliefs of neighbouring peoples, we can find evidence that the jewish elite were influenced by the religious beliefs of their surrounding neighbours.. this short video purports to demonstrate a connection between jewish thinking at the start of second temple judaism and the iranians who practised zoroastrianism.
.
i (at this time) find the suggestion that the jews conflated their yhwh with the zoroastrian divinity somewhat difficult, but its worth thinking about.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglgcnjz7_8&t=269s.
-
-
David_Jay
P.S.: The critical analysis and Jewish history marks a path a bit different from the video. As I mentioned the connections made in the most critical of approaches in Judaism are that the monotheistic concept came from Sinai/Moab sometime after the Hyskos were ousted from power in Egypt.
-
9
Second Temple Judaism's Iranian Connections - something to think about
by fulltimestudent inthe jw's (and many other christians) believe that their religious beliefs are derived from yhwh who personally taught men of old the truth.. this view is not supported by evidence, on the contrary, when we consider the religious beliefs of neighbouring peoples, we can find evidence that the jewish elite were influenced by the religious beliefs of their surrounding neighbours.. this short video purports to demonstrate a connection between jewish thinking at the start of second temple judaism and the iranians who practised zoroastrianism.
.
i (at this time) find the suggestion that the jews conflated their yhwh with the zoroastrian divinity somewhat difficult, but its worth thinking about.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglgcnjz7_8&t=269s.
-
-
David_Jay
It is quite odd for me as a Jewish man to see that this is any type of news to people.
Jews recognize that much of the ritual and even style of our Hebrew worship was shaped by the ancient world we lived in. Our worship style has the earmarks of the ancient Mesopotamian world we were part of, and it extends far back further than the Second Temple era. The religious connections predate our time in Egypt, and festivals like Passover may have connections to the world Abraham came from with alterations to these Mesopotamian feasts made to give them new meaning in our Jewish context as we ourselves were shaped by history.
But prior to the Shoah, antisemitism and anti-Judaism sentiment rose to the point that Gentile people got most of their "firsthand" information about the Jews and our history from Christians. The Church had made the Hebrew Bible it's own document, and in so doing often reshaped its interpretation to fit its needs, often claiming that its views had merely been transferred from Judaism to Christian exegetes.
After the Shoah there has been a greater emphasis on dialogue with the Jewish people by Christianity, and the discovery of the Qumran scrolls did much to lift the "exclusive scoop" Christians claimed of the Bible back to the peoples who were responsible for its foundations.
Add to this that about the same time the Roman Catholic Church gave a nod to critical analysis of Scripture and ever so slowly the rest of the world began to see that the Jews draw a line to their neighbors more than the heavens when it comes to these matters.
The Jewish explanation of these facets is still not fully believed by many, and there is even a pseudo-religious movement that is intent to change the Mesopotamian connection into one that begins with Egyptian religion, even though the critical analysis agrees with Jewish history and it's claim to have adopted things from its more immediate neighbors (not that there is no connection between Egyptian and Mesopotamian religion, as a matter of fact).
In the end, if you have been exposed only to the Jehovah's Witnesses and their literalist approaches, you might still be surprised by information like this. It's very, very old news to Jews. People often think we don't know these things because in the past Christians have drawn their own ideas over these matters and presented them as Jewish history, but you are late to the party if you think it's news. Even as early as the 1950s, the Catholic Church disavowed such previous views and currently its own study Bibles identify the same links regarding Jewish religion to its Mesopotamian neighbors.
The shadows of the Watchtower are very dark and have robbed too many of seeing the world as it truly is.
-
44
The Jewish perspective of the OT according to poster David_Jay
by deegee ini note your comments in the following threads regarding the jewish perspective on certain old testament (ot) events:.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5700922233585664/when-you-stop-think-about-why-would-gods-chosen-people-old-testament-need-army?page=1&size=10 ,.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6065451475927040/why-didnt-god-also-reveal-himself-canaanites-just-he-did-moses-burning-bush.
-
-
David_Jay
Wrapping Up the Scroll: The Last Three Questions
If you have followed up to now, you realize that the Jews have a view of themselves and their Scriptures that don't match anything you learned in JW land.
You might also already sort of know, more or less, what the answer to the last three questions are (and why they are grouped together too), namely...
Was there a literal Exodus from Egypt to the promised land?
Is there any part of the OT that should be taken literally?
Are there any Jewish scriptures outside of the OT which were communicated directly by God to the Jews/Israelites?
We pretty much answered the last question already in that if the Jews don't necessarily recognize the Hebrew Scriptures as a product of a direct communication by God (or at least don't have a dogmatic answer for this), then they don't have an answer to the last question. In a way all of the religion of the Jews in inspired, but it doesn't mean the same thing to us that this means to JWs.
Did God directly communicate other Scriptures to other peoples, something like, again, the Book of Mormon to the people who once inhabited the USA? Did, as the song goes in the musical, The Book of Mormon, 'ancient Jews build boats and sail to America?' These other Scriptures were not the product of our people, so we can't judge one way or the other. You will have to decide for yourself. We don't have anything in our theology that goes about saying that this is an impossibility (though the arguments for the validity of the Book of Mormon being what it claims it is, is pretty low).
Is there any part of the Hebrew Scriptures that can be taken literally? Of course. Go back to the original illustration about The Miracle Worker. Is any of that literal? Indeed, yes. Which parts? You have to do the footwork yourself and compare the script to the actual life accounts. Which parts of the Hebrew Scriptures are literal and which are not? Well, I don't have the space to tell you all of that.
But there is a lot of less footwork involved since scholars have done a lot of the footwork for you. For a Jewish perspective on what is literal and what is not, you can start with the Jewish Study Bible. But don't be surprised if you need to dig further. Expect to. And you may be surprised that the Roman Catholic Church and mainstream Christianity have come to many of the same conclusions we have, but again you will have to do some work to see where this is so. I suggest the NRSV Oxford Annotated Study Bible and the NABRE. The New Jerusalem Bible is a good choice too, but make sure you have the edition with the full footnote apparatus.
And don't be surprised if you find that some Jews see some parts of Scripture as literal, and some do not. Remember, we are "Israel." We wrestle with God. We challenge the Scriptures, unlike Christians who attempt to make everything fit in with all the texts. You can't judge all Jews but what one Jew or some Jews say. You can only hear the various views and leave it at that.
Now, was there a literal Exodus from Egypt? Historians and archaeologists believe so, and this ancient aspect of our Jewish history predates the Scriptures. The evidence does support that under the reign of the Hyksos dynasty, Semites came to live in Egypt and eventually found themselves driven into slavery after the Hyksos were driven out. Some scholars believe the exodus of slaves came in waves, some suggesting three.
How many left? Probably a lot less than what is written in the Scriptures. Remember, the book of Exodus is not the source of the stories of our slavery and exodus from Egypt. This comes from our own history. Every nation in the ancient world had its gods, and we attributed our redemption from slavery to our God, just as any other nation or tribe would have done. In some ways the stories of my ancestors are merely typical of what you will find by examining any ancient history of any ancient peoples.
To conclude, like The Miracle Worker, our Scriptures are not pure fiction or merely mythologies borrowed from other nations of the ancient world around us (though some of what you find is fiction and some of it is borrowed). There are reasons for this.
The reason some of you reading this might find a lot of this surprising or hard to grasp or even accept is because of your exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses. For them the Bible is a source of revelation from God. As such, the Bible must be the guide for all religion. If it is to be this guide, then its words must be true, and that truth must be fact. If they are not, then any religion based solely on the Bible can't ever be right.
Judaism has never based its beliefs solely on the Bible. We wrote the Bible. It came a long time after the events therein. And we didn't write the things down in order to have a guide for our religious beliefs and doctrines. If you were an ancient nation, you had religious beliefs and doctrines already. From what we believed came the Scriptures and not the other way around.
This may be fascinating, but at the same time it is also upsetting. Being so obsessed with the Bible should have made the Witnesses and their Governing Body equally obsessed with learning the facts behind the Book they believe to be the ultimate source of revelation from God. If they wanted to know what it meant, they should have at least considered the Jewish view first. Where they have done this in a few places, to a large extent this still has not happened. What I am writing here is not new, but some of you who have spent years studying the Bible as one of Jehovah's Witnesses are just learning of these things for the first time. In my opinion, you should have learned it to begin with. If the Bible is so vital to the Jehovah's Witnesses, none of this I have written should come as a surprise. No one, not even the one who composed the OP should have a question for me.
You don't have to be Jewish to know the Jewish perspective. And you can't understand the Scriptures correctly (even the New Testament) without having a grasp of that perspective to begin with. The idea that this is not the starting place or even any part of the Bible education of Jehovah's Witnesses is, for lack of a better word, sad. Even the Catholic, Orthodox, and mainstream Protestant study Bibles are filled with accurate information about the Jewish perspective (maybe not as deep, but it's there).
So that's it. I finished sooner that I expected. Feel free to ask any further question on the subjects presented. I will try to get back to each as soon as I can. Just remember, if you are seeking to discuss religion with me or even try to get me to consider your religious views on Jesus or the like, I don't think that is appropriate. Nobody comes here to get preached at, and I am not looking to make people into Jews either.
Hopefully now your eyes are a little more open to how blind and deaf you had been due to the failure of the Watchtower religion to teach people about the Scriptures of the Children of Abraham, the nation of Israel, the Jews.