Posts by David

28

A problem for believers

by Bugbear in

a problem for believers!.

a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.

they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.

David_Jay

You may be describing religion based on your experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. Not all religions believe they have a special, unique, and/or exclusive on truth or even c!aim to worship a deity.

Jehovah's Witnesses have taught us many untruths about religion which upon leaving the Watchtower we might forget to dismiss with the other doctrines of the Governing Body. For instance, claims made by the Witnesses that the Roman Catholic Church says it's interpretation of things is the only one is false. Especially since Vatican II and even as recent as 2015 the Holy See has taught that revelation from God is not exclusive to either the Catholic Church or Christianity in general.

Also in 2015 Orthodox rabbis from around the world formally stated that Jesus is part of God's plan to unite people of different religious views and cultures to find common ground in working for the betterment of humanity.

In 1999 Catholics and Protestants of the Lutheran traditions ended their debate regarding the issues raised by Martin Luther in the Reformation, with Pope Francis just this year recognizing Luther as part of God's plan to bring about unity in Christianity.

Some religions like Buddhism and Taoism are godless. And the religion of my people, Judaism, does not teach that people must worship the God of Abraham or even believe God exists in order to be moral and have a blessed life now and even in the world to come. That's right, theism and religion are not necessary to enter the future Jews hope for.

While I definitely do not advocate religion as the panacea or requisite for humanity, one can still have an accurate view of religion while rejecting it. But to do so, one must step away from the prejudices and bigotry the Watchtower programs into people about religion.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

The reason I begin a lot of comments regarding Christian subjects that way is that some participants skim posts and, if they see you are writing about Jesus immediately think you're a Christian apologist. This has happened so many times to me, I now have to begin each subject that talks about something Christian this way.

Oddly, it sometimes doesn't work and someone will start calling me an apologist and telling me how my belief in Jesus is nonsense and how I need to go back to the Kingdom Hall or Catholic Church, etc. So it appears I cannot say it enough for some.

To find out if you might have some Jewish connection, you merely need to research your heritage. You cannot tell merely by name (not always), and the DNA tests offered to the public are not specific enough to help uncover such with accuracy.

However you might have an exclusively Jewish name and not realize it too. My friend Aaron Hernandez (not the sports figure) didn't know he was of Jewish heritage even though the name Hernandez is a Sephardic Jewish name developed during the Spanish Inquisition. Because the Inquisition scattered people with the name to Mexico, Cuba, Italy, etc., some people never make the connection.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

No, I mean, you're seriously asking? You've been in deep debate with me before where I mentioned this repeatedly, so I am wondering what your question means. I didn't think you were being unfriendly.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

Slimboy,

Are you being sarcastic?

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

I wish I knew more than what I offered, deegee. I don't think I could get those answers even from the exorcist however, though I am certain there is always work to attempt to ensure that natural conditions are not mistaken for something else.

I do know that those in the Catholic Church who deal with such things are themselves not afraid to say "we don't know." This I think can be very healing to hear for many of us who were once JWs.

Even after leaving the Watchtower we may spend years trying to find our own truth, but in so doing we might demand "truth" in a form that lives up to standards demanded by Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of these are unrealistic, even unreasonable.

Jehovah's Witnesses insultingly draw definitive parameters around concepts which are supposed to be spiritual and, as a consequence, transcendent. While religion for most is supposed to be a letting go to the great mysteries of life and embracing the mystery of it, Jehovah's Witnesses have reduced religion to a scholastic exercise teaching that something is not worth believing if one cannot explain it.

God, for instance, is for the most part completely "knowable" for Jehovah's Witnesses, with rules made up for God: God cannot be a Trinity, God has to have only one true religion on earth, God will only answer prayers if they contain an utterance of God's name, etc. The most mysterious things are reduced to puppets that more or less always act within rules as expected.

So a healthy asking for answers to such questions may be on the minds of everyone, non-JW as well as JW, but the acknowledgement that such details cannot always reasonably be expected in many cases might be telling of where else the Watchtower still remains in us and may have to be uprooted.

I guess this where an actual leap of faith comes in, not the type taught in Watchtower Land either. There comes a point where even doctors and priests must admit they don't know and just have to do their jobs. Sometimes it means the priest must turn away the "possessed" subject to doctors, and sometimes the doctor must turn away the patient to a priest. We are talking not hypotheticals but of desperate situations where lives hang in the balance. Sometimes you have to take a step into something you neither believe in or understand to save a life.

37

I will only believe in demons if...

by deegee in

jws are known to have an obsession and preoccupation with demons.. this obsession and preoccupation is not without merit given that jesus, his disciples/apostles, and the general public of 1st century ce judea and galilee are reported as believing in the existence of demonic spirits and in the possibility of demon possession of an individual.. exorcism formed a large part of jesus' ministry on earth.

the gospels and the book of acts describe many exorcisms where jesus and his disciples release people from demonic possession.. ___ .

but how do demons get inside a person's brain or body?

David_Jay

The only source I can cite with any alleged experience in these matters from a Christian perspective is the Roman Catholic Church.

Before I continue, I want to reiterate that I am a Jew. Jews are not in the business of making converts, proselytizing, or actively adding members to our religion. I am also not advocating religion as a panacea or claiming that Jews hold the Roman Catholic Church as the authority in spiritual matters. This is only to add some educational data that might be useful in answering the question posed. No intention is made to suggest that the following information is the "ultimate truth" in the matter.

While Judaism has some demonology in its theology, it is neither universal to Jewish religion nor embraced by every Jew. However some of the basic theological principles did transfer to Catholicism.

According to Catholic teaching (and insight I was given by a priest who served in the past as an exorcist), the Catholic view is that actual possession (an extraordinary and rare situation in that religion's views) is always invited. It never, ever happens to someone who is not in one manner or another dabbling in some activity in which interest or desire invites contact.

The contact can begin quite innocently through curiosity, and the very few "genuine" cases on record seem to have that as an earmark. But, interestingly enough, the Church makes claim to so few cases of genuine demonic possession that it is almost non-existent. This does not mean exorcisms do not occur, as quite many indeed do today, but that rite is not merely the ritual expelling of a demon that has possessed a person, but more often a demon that is harassing a person. The blessing of an object for a holy purpose or to protect it from evil is also an exorcism.

The rite to expell a demon possession is not performed until all scientific explanations and medical procedures have been exhausted. Occasionally the rite may be performed on a mentally ill subject who merely believes they are possessed when medical professionals believe it can help the same. But subjects who claim possession are medical subjects first and a!ways until such a time as no explanation is left and signs are met that theologically fit the pattern of possession.

The Church does not release details about cases and more often than not hides the identities of the current exorcists in practice. Demonology suggests that demons recognize a hierarchy in Christianity, wherein lesser demons can be exercised by some denominations but others require longer standing (older) churches or denominations. This seems to be the unspoken rule recognized by the churches as well for when some churches fail in a possession case, regardless of the formal views they may have about the Holy See, the Catholic Church is always contacted for the most severe cases. Apparently, as demonology suggests, some demons will only be exercised by the oldest Christian authority.

17

Question on the sun created in the fourth day

by opusdei1972 in

in the first day elohim created light, and it was day and night in the first day.

then in the fourth day he created the sun, the moon and the stars.

of course, it did not actually happen, but what did the writer have in mind?.

David_Jay

@opusdei1972,

I do see what you are saying. I believe greatly that the literalist approach causes more than a little confusion with texts. I think it even applies to Christian texts too, such as the one you mention in 1 John.

If memory serves me, the author was not saying that all people who don't believe in Jesus are liars. He was specifically speaking of the Christian Gnostics who were denying that Jesus was the Messiah of the Jews. Marcion of Sinope was one who was heavily influenced by their teachings, and he started a heresy that taught that the Jews worshipped a lesser god than Jesus.

It is these people who eventually influenced Marcion that the author was calling liars. Marcionism taught the Christian Gnostic doctrine that Jesus had come in the flesh but was not the Christ.

17

Question on the sun created in the fourth day

by opusdei1972 in

in the first day elohim created light, and it was day and night in the first day.

then in the fourth day he created the sun, the moon and the stars.

of course, it did not actually happen, but what did the writer have in mind?.

David_Jay

@opusdei1972,

Of course if one considers that the God concept is different for the Jews than it is for Christians (and so, as a consequence, is the concept of inspiration), the problem may be caused by the lens one applies to the concepts of deity and revelation.

For Christians like Jehovah's Witnesses, God is a literal deity, a "supreme being" not too different than other gods like Zeus, for instance. But for Jews, "God" is actually not the ancient concept of what a deity is. The same term is used, but this is for a lack of a more accurate label.

In Judaism, tradition claims that before any direct revelation from God, Abraham came to realize that deities were false. He came to this realization by comparing nature to the idol gods sold by his father. Abraham reasoned that the world was "caused" by something far different than the gods worshipped by people.

This ultimate "Cause" is the God of Abraham and the Jews. Exactly what this Cause is transcends human capacity to comprehend. Compared to this Cause, a human is like an amoeba under a microscope and God is like a human watching it. An amoeba has no ability to comprehend the human on the other end of the microscope, and if it could think any concept it did attempt to create to define the human would fail.

This is not to say that the Cause is a being with a mind either. Some Jews think this Cause may be the universe itself with the laws of nature that govern and caused it. Some think this Cause has intelligence but so far advanced that human logic and intelligence cannot compare. God, therefore, in Judaism is mystery.

I remember a line from the film "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" where Dr Jones is teaching his class and says: "Archeology deals in facts. If you want truth, take a philosophy class."

The attitude that the Bible is unacceptable if it lacks facts is an argument we used to use out in field service. As Jehovah's Witnesses we were taught that it was a book of facts and that our beliefs were "proven" by looking into this fact book. We wouldn't believe anything without such "evidence," and we surely wouldn't believe in the Bible if it wasn't factual.

But it's a collection of writings dealing with the search for truth. It doesn't deal in facts. The whole idea that it's worthless or uninspired by the great Cause of the universe because it's not the fact book the Watchtower told you it was is like running back to the JW attitude: "I'm not going to believe it if it's not a fact book!"

Religion is like philosophy, concerned not with the empirical evidence of science but what the existence of the evidence means, the WHY it is here in the first place and why YOU are witnessing it. Just because the Bible is not the book JWs told you it was doesn't make the Bible wrong. It makes the JWs wrong.

18

7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs

by fukitol in

jw
friends

the sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.

increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.

David_Jay

An additional footnote to the above: The critical review of the LDS history has backfired in that it has included admitting that long-held apostate (ex-Mormon) views about Joseph Smith were correct, namely about the number and age of his various wives and the fact that Smith used a "seer stone" dropped into a hat to "interpret" the so-called Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon.

18

7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs

by fukitol in

jw
friends

the sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.

increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.

David_Jay

The SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses come from the same branch of Adventism that sprung fourth from the Second Great Awakening in America during the 19th century.

Both groups come from the Adventist teachings of William Miller whose predictions on the Second Coming of Jesus caused the Great Disappointment of October 22, 1844. The Adventists have survived, but the SDA and the Jehovah's Witnesses were two groups that successfully managed to put a spin on the Great Disappoint as to offer an excuse for why Jesus did not return in 1844.

Like JWs, the SDA believes in the Marcionism concept that written Scripture is the ultimate source of divine revelation, and as such that it is the basis for all religious doctrine and truth. They believe that God and Satan along with humanity are players in a drama over God's rightful sovereignty, something the SDA calls "The Great Controversy." While they accept the teaching of the Trinity, they do believe in a Christology that matches very much what Witnesses teach in regards to the passion and death of Christ. They too believe in "soul sleep," which seems to be an earmark of all Adventism. And though SDA emphasizes the observance of the Jewish Sabbath for Christians, they too believe that God exists in the same time frame as humans and that "time prophecies" point to the "fact" that we are in the Last Days.

Recently, like the Latter-Day Saints, the SDA has been redefining its beliefs via critical analysis such as is done in Catholicism and Judaism. This has allowed them to be more honest about their past statements that, like the JWs, have failed to come to pass and seem to lean in the direction of claiming a past over-emphasis on the works of Ellen G. White. Hoping that adopting critical analytical hermeneutics would prove as advantageous as it has over the past centuries for both Catholicism and Judaism, both the LDS and SDA have experienced the reverse and now see a drop in growth.

A footnote to all this is that the Bahá'í Faith, a mixture of religious teachings from East and West, claims that Miller was generally correct about his calculations regarding the Second Coming. The 1844 calculations are believed by the Bahá'í to correctly forecast the arrival of the Báb, a major figure in their religion.

While the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a direct splinter of the Millerite movement, Charles Taze Russell once commented: "I confess indebtedness to Adventists." (wt 6/1/1916, p 170) The Bible Students and subsequently the JWs employed Adventist views on calculating time periods from numbers mentioned in Scriptures, adopting their general ideas that the final days of the world began in the 19th century and that the last generation of humanity was now present since the mid-1800s.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay