Posts by David

45

So, is God a rapist!?

by stuckinarut2 in

ok, i apologise in advance if this seems irreverent to those who believe in god.. but, the bible says that god (jehovah) impregnated mary.

without her consent.

so that would seem to be rape...right?.

David_Jay

I am Mr. Dunn, David's friend. I'm searching for a way to get his profile removed.

I'm an atheist. I'm 50 years old, holding several degrees from three universities, never grew up in a religion, especially not one such as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

But even I as an educated atheist man know that this entire thread is actually highly problematic in its arguments.

I respect others right to disagree with the thread, but can they offer a better explanation of the "facts" about Mary's conception?

Yes. There is. Even though I hold no belief in Christianity or Jesus or the New Testament myths, this story from the Gospel of Luke (the only place it occurs) is called "The Annunciation." It is all about Mary saying "yes" to God's invitation to become the mother of Jesus.

In fact, it is so much the opposite of a rape, that the "yes" Mary gives to God in this short story is theologically celebrated as a Holy Day of Obligation in the Roman Catholic Church (a day where all Catholics MUST attend Mass regardless of what day of the year this day falls on).

On this day Mary's "yes" is contrasted to Eve's "no" in following God's invitation to obedience. One woman is asked to not eat of a certain tree that leads to death and she says "no." Another woman is asked to become the mother of a child who will bring life to all humankind and this other woman says "yes." (See the following information on the theological contrast between the two women, though this article is about the Immaculate Conception.)

In my view as an atheist, it's a myth. But I'm also an EDUCATED ATHEIST. That means I know the myth, just like I know the Greek and Roman myths. To get the myths wrong would make me sound like an ignorant asshole. I'm not an ignorant asshole. I know my mythology.

Now I'm not saying any of you are ignorant assholes. This idea for this thread is likely due to being exposed to nothing but the limited world of your Jehovah's Witnesses cult. You folks wouldn't be writing this thread if you had heard of The Annunciation. It's probably printed as a day on your secular calendars too but you've never noticed it or knew what it was. That's what living in a deep, dark hole in the ground, cut off from the real world does to you. You don't even learn the mythology of the world correctly.

The Annunciation is not a story of a rape. It's a story of a woman who said "yes" to a deity when asked if she would act as that deity's handmaiden. She bravely and honorably gave her consent in contrast to Eve, and that's the point of the myth.

Now if someone can tell me how to disconnect David's account. I won't bother you again.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

My name is Charles Dunn. I am David’s friend.

He left very upset to his synagogue tonight. For the past two days he has been posting feverishly on this site after an absence on it for some time. I was hoping he would never go back as it makes him upset. David has some challenges, which he has told me he has shared with this site for the first time tonight.

I have finally got him to agree to stop coming on this site. Whatever it is you folks do to him, it’s not good.

David is a highly intelligent, successful individual and professional. He has spent his life in community projects on a national and international level. At 50 he has much to show for it. He is also on the autism spectrum, highly functioning, what people used to call having Asperger's syndrome.

People on the spectrum can become obsessive. People like him are highly logical and rational. They can see things others can’t, especially when people are lying to themselves. So they can be a little too blunt with us and say things to us we don’t want to hear. That is David. It frustrates him that others don’t like to hear the truth. He doesn’t this.

I apologize if his bluntness has upset anyone. That is his main flaw. He doesn’t realize when he shouldn’t point out another’s problem. Normally people gloss over another’s faults and just move on. David expects people to appreciate being corrected. He enjoys being told where he made a mistake and fixing himself, but you better be right when you do this otherwise he will correct you about your correction.

But I’ve been reading what he’s been writing for the past two days too. And I’ve been reading through this site. I’m sorry for all the hurt you folks have gone through as Jehovah’s Witnesses. I recall David’s own experiences. The hurt shows.

However, there is a lot of unnecessary hate that comes through. A lot. And I hope some of you do something for it because it shows that you need healing.

The reason I got David to promise to never return is because the way his comments about religion gets him treated by some of you here. It get him more than mocked. It him and his words treated with hateful disrespect.

I am an atheist. I have no need for religion. But that type of speech is very, very wrong. I know hurt from your experience as a Jehovah’s Witness is at the basis for most of it, but you direct it at a person and his culture. His religion of Judaism is tied to a people, so every word you say about his religion is about his people and culture. I would never do that. Reading some of your words here is definitely a sign that there is a lack of connection with propriety and social responsibility.

My main concern in David. He doesn’t understand that some of you are being hateful towards him because he’s the easiest and closest thing to hate now that you are out of your cult. But I do. So I am taking him away. And he’s not coming back.

I wish you the best. I hope some of you heal and realize there’s more to being an atheist than hating and mocking religion and religious people.

I will post this in two of the threads he had open tonight to make sure all is settled.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

I didn't say people couldn't be humorous, Sparky1.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

EverApostate,

My wife, who has passed, was an atheist. Her brother, who is still living, is atheist. I'm a practing Jew. I love her brother very much, and he and I are very close. We are the best of friends.

There is a very big difference between him and his atheist friends, most of whom are scholars and academics, and the atheists on this board. My atheist friends are not anti-religious. Most atheists here are very anti-religious.

And yet, this is not an anti-religious board. It is an ex-Jehovah's Witnesses board. Over the years, it has become very intolerant of religious thought and people.

I'm very supportive of atheists, even those with an anti-religious slant. Being a Jew I am often subject to religious persecution by the same religions that persecute atheists. We generally have the same enemies in common. Even if we didn't, I hate the fact that anyone would treat another human as a second-class citizen just because they don't believe in God. My experience with atheists has for the most part been positive, and they have been some of the closest family members of mine.

This forum has of late become an anti-religion forum. But it is advertised still as an ex-JW forum. And though I understand that people are hurt by the Watchtower, and know what that is like because I was a JW too, people focus their anger and hate at anything and anyone religious.

In my case, that is often me and my culture. And it hurts, it hurts a lot. It's insulting, and often anti-Semitic. But I come back again and again.

This isn't an anti-religious forum. There are forums on the Internet that are for anti-religious discussions and jokes. You can rant and rave there. But I understand the need of people to do that here, and I just go ahead and let it happen.

But the opening page of this site reads that this is a place that will...

...provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends.

That isn't really true anymore. People aren't tolerant of things religious. People are intolerant of it. It's just a joke, and often it's a target and something to insult.

You are in the outside world now. Outside the Watchtower, the God of Abraham originates from the culture of the Jews, so does the Old Testament part of the Bible. You make fun of that or say bad things about God, you are saying bad things about a culture and a people, and me. It's called "intolerance." It amounts to "anti-Semitism." This isn't the closed-off world of the Watchtower anymore. You can't say things like some of you have been saying of late without hurting me or a lot of people. You have to learn to stop and think before you type. You need to find healthier ways to deal with your anger and hurt. Some of your speech is boardering on hate speech.

The fact that some of you don't see certain subjects as anything more than a joke says a lot about not realizing how things are really like in the outside world. You want to be outside in the real world. Okay, you are. But now you have rules out here. You can't say certain things. God is not the exclusive property of the Christians. God is also tied to the Jewish culture, a persecuted minority, one that suffered during the Holocaust.

You are outside in the very real world now. I understand the hurt, the pain from the Watchtower days. It's not like I don't feel it too. But there are proper ways to act now. We aren't in the Watchtower anymore.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

EverApostate,

Wasn't offended. I just took it literally.

You said it was a place for joking and suddenly I thought: Oh, oh, David, you did it again!

I almost never share I have autism. It was like I said, practically nobody knows. Now at 50 I've learned how to fit in and for the most part I function like most people in public.

But there are still a few times when things escape me, like cerain low-brow jokes. I am also highly logical.

I also almost never offer my opinions here. Opinions have no logical value since they are based on emotions. People leaving the Watchtower need empirical data, in other words what people call "facts." Jokes and opinions will only cloud the needs of people leaving cults.

We on this board owe it to people reading our posts to separate ourselves, our opinions and feelings from the subject matter, and to post objectively. Sure, a joke here and there is fine, but there is a section for it isn't there?

For the most part we need to answer questions in ways to help Witnesses and ex-JWs think critically so as to leave the Watchtower behind. In order to do this we need to think and answer seriously as often as possible.

Lives are at stake. If you waste your time on here joking, you are wasting a reader's time, a reader who might have limited time on this site because they are still a JW, and might get caught reading this and face disciplinary action because of it. Others are not as free as you to be here on this forum. You can't think only of yourself.

We post a joke, and they have had to scroll past jokes to find real, serious information that they need. That's not fair. There are many people that can't sign up as members and only read out of fear of getting caught, but they seriously need our help, not our jokes.

We have a duty. We are out. We need to help get our brother and sisters out too. That, in my opinion, is not a joking matter.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

EverApostate wrote:

Seems you are taking all religious texts very seriously and trying hard to add substance to it. Take it EZ friend. Religion is all about fun, for most people on this Blog. Just saying. Its your wish to write your mind.

Actually, I try not to write my opinion or personal views on this forum. I am an academic. I'm trying to help ex-JWs find solid answers, not jokes.

I was raised for a short time as a Witness, but if people here are just taking everything I say as a joke, and I don't realize that, then I will leave.

I am 50 years old and am on the autism spectrum, but very high functioning. Most people cannot tell when they meet me. I also have a very high IQ. Combined this might make it hard for me to know when other people are joking. Apparently this has been the case.

So if this is the consensus of everyone here, please let me know by having several people post in the next following statements. I apologize for making this mistake. I have no problem leaving the forum. I didn't realize this was a joke forum.

Autism, even as high functioning as mine, does make me not get jokes some times.

37

Science may answer the question: Is there a God?

by Old Navy in

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qkdv6yg3s.

David_Jay

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

I am a BIG Douglas Adams fan!

That being said, this doesn't apply to the Jewish concept of God because "faith" is a Christian concept. As a Jew I don't have faith in God's existence, neither do I believe that God exists.

At the same time I very much accept the reality of the God of Abraham. Most Jews will also say similar things, saying no to faith and belief. Perhaps they might even stop short of the claim of "real" as well. And yet you will find that these same Jews pray. There are atheist Jews who are Torah observant and pray too.

What you won't find are agnostics in Judaism. Weird, huh? How does that work?

The concept of the God of Abraham is very different in Judaism. It is an Eastern concept and a form of monotheistic thought that has evolved for 2000 years longer than static Christianity's view of God.

Some ex-JWs who become atheists often carry over their religious ignorance with them and apply their limited views from the Watchtower, a Western and very Gentile, Christian religion, to a Middle-Eastern Religio-culture with a very complex and evolving theology.

What you're trying to say might make you sound uneducated to some. My atheist friends who are not and never have come from religious backgrounds refer to ex-JWs atheists as "narrow atheists." It means their arguments are only limited to Western theology.

There are reasons why Judaism is a monotheistic religion. Since we don't make converts, have no interest in doing so, and I am not here to attempt that, if you want to know more and why, I am sure you can find a local temple or synagogue and educate yourself.

Otherwise, every time you apply Christian theology to something I said about Judaism, I will point out how much it belies any claim you might make to being a critical thinker or know what you are talking about. (But I know you better than that. You quoted Douglas Adams, so you're ok I'm my book.)

Besides, who has to have faith or belief in anything that is real? If I went to my rabbi and said, "Help me, rabbi, I am having doubts that my wife exists. My faith in her existence is fading." I'm sure my rabbi would send me to the funny farm. If you are certain someone is real, why do you have to faith in their existence in the first place?

Sir82, I actually appreciated your comments and gave them a thumbs up. But make sure you know that Mr. Adams was speaking of Christianity. I was speaking of Judaism. Jews actually demand proof of God...but that's another story which, like I said, you need to take to your local temple if you need more info.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

Diogenesister,

That story about Jesus making a paste with his spit will likely sound odd to those who have been exposed to little more than the theology of Jehovah's Witnesses, but that is because Jehovah's Witnesses are so religiously isolated and academically ignorant in critical theology.

In Christianity there is a basic fundamental belief to the majority of almost every Christian. It is called "sacramentality." If all you have ever known is Watchtower religion then this passage likely weirds you out.

It will be too long and drawn out to fully explain what a sacrament is to you because it depends if you understand Christianity's theology on grace. As a Jew myself, I am not here to give you a lesson on becoming a Christian anyway.

In a nutshell, Christians believe that God mercifully considers the needs of humans to see, feel, and touch something while invisible spiritual actions are taking place. So God uses sacraments, everyday physical objects or persons, and endows them with the miraculous to such an extent that these objects or persons become the physical representatives of the invisible reality.

To illustrate: The hem of Jesus' cloak acted as a sacrament for the woman who was suffering from a hemorrhage. (Luke 8:44) Peter's shadow was a healing sacrament at one time. (Acts 5:15) Articles of clothing and handkerchiefs from Paul were also sacraments used to heal people. (Acts 19:11-12) Today most Christians practice two sacraments, that of baptism and Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper. The objects here are water and bread and wine or juice of grapes, respectively.

The paste Jesus made in your example was a sacrament. Even Jesus himself is viewed by Christians as a sacrament. Since God cannot be directly viewed and touched by humans, God came as the Incarnation as God the Son, someone humanity can see, touch, and understand in human terms.

Again this is Christianity's take. It doesn't represent my view as a Jew since Jews don't accept Jesus as Messiah. But it should help you understand what that mud/paste healing meant.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

It is considered an odd story even by Christian academics.

What makes it problematic are the following points:

1. Though that specific area was inhabited by Gentiles, archeology has never uncovered any pig bones from there. There is no evidence of pig herding from Galilee of the first century.

2. Pigs can swim. In fact, they are notably excellent swimmers, even if they jump from high distances into water.

The story therefore might be written with some hyperbole or allegory. This is noted in the Jewish Annotated New Testament. The expression of Jesus in Matthew 8, especially the single word "Go" to exorcise matches an older Jewish tale of the famous rabbi exorcist Shimon ben Yohai. It may have been modeled on this to teach some sort of lesson now lost to modern readers.

37

Science may answer the question: Is there a God?

by Old Navy in

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qkdv6yg3s.

David_Jay

Since the subject is "God," it might be appropriate to bring up that a few terms by the OP and even never a jw are considered archaic in mainstream theology, especially since the year 2000 due to the 50-year-long Christian-Jewish ecumenical dialogues representing almost all major denominations, and especially the changes this made to Christianity in particular in 2015.

Christianity, with the Roman Catholic Church taking the lead acknowledged that Judaism's interpretation of God was first and can no longer be ignored by Christian exegesis.

With that in mind, Judaism has never held that God is male or has gender. Even the Hebrew pronouns used for God, while at first blush was read in the masculine due to a misunderstanding on the part of Christian scholars, is actually neuter. Just as Hebrew has no vowels, Biblical Hebrew has no neuter personal pronoun. It merely uses the masculine as a device of syntax for neuter as it sometimes used the feminine as a device of syntax to describe inanimate objects.

God is also NOT invisible in Judaism, just very hard on the eyes. There is a bit of God in everything and everyone. When it or they fulfill their purpose, or especially when a person does something practical and good, a little bit of God is visibly exposed to the universe. This would be impossible if God were invisible.

Lastly, Jews don't accept that God is always right. One of the reasons Jews believe that God chose to be in a covenant with mere mortals was to grow. The word "Israel" means "those who wrestle with God." That's why we aren't called the nation of Abraham. We take after Jacob, who kept wrestling with God's plan for him. We do not blindly obey, we argue with God, and sometimes we tell God we don't agree with God.

Christians are indeed struggling with these ancient concepts that we Jews have of God, but for the first time in their 2000 year history they have decided to be open to them. At least they've agreed to stop formal attempts at converting us away from them.

So some of your arguments for and against God need to be updated to go back some 4000 years so you are up to date with the today's Protestant and Catholic churches. It's part of the program to prevent the Holocaust from happening again. Christians recognize their old doctrines played at least an indirect part in that horror.

It isn't enough to dredge up old arguments. Religious concepts in Christianity have recently changed and dramatically so because of the Holocaust. It took over a generation of dialogue with Jews (a formal dialogue that is still going on), but in 2015 they indeed did, and on both ends too.

You may have never been a JW, or have recently left, but you're talking to people who are part of the real world now. Here in the real world we're educated, we're engaged, we keep up with what's going on.

Saying merely what you think is true is not enough anymore.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay