Posts by David

12

Lead us not into temptation

by eyeuse2badub in

'lead us not into temptation': why pope francis is wrong about the lord's prayer.

m j c warren, lecturer in biblical and religious studies, university of .

pope francis recently announced that he thinks the common english translation of the lord’s prayer is mistranslated.

David_Jay

Feeling much better, so thought I can help out with this one.

Pope Francis is speaking NOT about changing BIBLE translations but updating the LITURGICAL translations of the "Nostre Patre," the Lord's Prayer as it is translated into the vernacular in English and Italian for the Mass.

Both English and Italian still use very old, outdated vernacular forms of the Nostre Patre in Mass. For instance, the English translation of the Mass was just updated a few years ago, but the Lord's Prayer still reads the same way it did in 1610: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name..." The Italian version is similarly outdated.

The Liturgy, or official prayer service, exists in Latin in order to have a universal version from which to translate the Liturgy into various languages. Each language group (episcopate) is responsible to translate the Liturgy as it sees fit based on a set of recently set, simple guidelines that allow each episcopal body autonomy.

But one of the demands from that Vatican upon each local body is that modern, critical, and easy-to-use language be chosen for renditions. Traditionalists have not liked this new directive of Pope Francis, and some have found themselves removed from their positions because of it. The Pope even stopped the Vatican from having control over all translation projects and gave this power back to the local bishops and to the critical language scholars just earlier this year.

What the Pope is talking about is that the renditions in English and Italian LITURGY are both old and give the wrong impression to readers of today. They do not even match the new approved Catholic translations of the Bible released in these countries. For instance, where in the Mass the Liturgy still reads in English: "...And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," the Catholic NRSV reads: "And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one."--Matthew 6:13.

This is outstandingly different. The Liturgy makes it sound like God can lead people into test, but in reality this is only because it is olden vernacular. In 1610 it meant the same thing as the NRSV rendering means today. But if we keep the words for tradition's sake, we get a different meaning because today's idiom has changed. That is what the Pope is saying. The Liturgy must and will change for Catholics. Their Bibles already did, 20 to 30 years ago. It is time for the Mass to catch up.

While the current Liturgy is based on the Latin text, it itself is being critically updated with the best critical Greek scholarship. Also, only the English and Italian versions of the Liturgy read in such archaic forms. All other language groups have already changed. Pope Francis is announcing that the Liturgy in these last two areas will be standardized with the rest of the world to match the best critical Greek readings.

As for Bible translations, Catholic Bible versions are translated in the vernacular for each language group independent of the Vatican by scholars from various religious traditions, Christian, Jewish, and sometimes even Muslim and atheist linguists in order to avoid bias. The end result receives approval for Catholic use by the bishops that oversee the language group of their area, especially if that version is to be used for liturgical purposes.

45

So, is God a rapist!?

by stuckinarut2 in

ok, i apologise in advance if this seems irreverent to those who believe in god.. but, the bible says that god (jehovah) impregnated mary.

without her consent.

so that would seem to be rape...right?.

David_Jay

Hi, folks. This is David.

Despite my brother-in-law's best intentions, I apologize that he has been a bit too zealous on my account. Forgive his use of profanity.

To outsiders this forum is not well understood. The pain of others that we often project towards one another (since we don't have the Watchtower to directly confront) can come off as bullying. Sometimes it does cross that line, and we ourselves can be the last to see it as that. But who else can we get mad at and with?

I am following everyone's advice and staying away after this, but I wanted to end on a good note and apologize for Chuck. He is overly protective.

As for Anony Mous's last words: You are wrong. I am a post-rabbinical Jew. You can also read any of my comments here or ask anyone like Cofty that I do not nor have ever claimed to have all the answers and have never stated that Judaism or religion has all the answers. I don't believe anything along the lines of what you have written. That was a false statement about me and a personal attack. I will leave it at that.

Farewell to everyone else. Again my apologies for Chuck's behavior.

45

So, is God a rapist!?

by stuckinarut2 in

ok, i apologise in advance if this seems irreverent to those who believe in god.. but, the bible says that god (jehovah) impregnated mary.

without her consent.

so that would seem to be rape...right?.

David_Jay

David had been acting very anxious for several weeks, especially after hurricane Irma struck us here in Florida. As part of an adult Asperburgers/Autism support group, his therapy leaders and I went searching for the cause. We found it: this forum.

Just because some here didn't read the comments we found aimed at David, doesn't mean they weren't there. We read them all, the ones where he was taunted repeatedly with the phrase "getting your panties all twisted in a wad" or where he was repeatedly called "stupid...insane...brainless" and countless times where various posters attacked his culture, his race's traditions etc. If you would like I can even list the names of all the posters and the personal insults and curse words that various people called David as he posted. We copied everything down.

On top of that, if I have to keep on reminding you, David is atypical. He doesn't understand each time something is meant to be a simple lampoon or get jokes as easily as the rest of you. To be honest, you folks don't make it clear at all, and in some cases we had a hard time seeing a difference on this site... And we don't have autism!

The front page of this site claims it offers support and tolerance. Instead, what I am reading here from JP1692 is that what you really offer is only distrust, challenges, and fiery heat to everyone who passes through. If they don't measure up to these standards, you spit them out.

Congrats. You just replaced one high control group with another that practices shunning and excommunication just like the group you left. And just like the group you left, you blame the victims for not fitting in. Good job guys, you've invented a new online cult.

I'm moving on now. Enjoy lampooning, putting people under "the heat" and then blaming them if they cannot stay in your "kitchen," but lying to them on your front page on how this is a welcoming page of support and tolerance. You really learned how to be just like the Watchtower cult, didn't you?

45

So, is God a rapist!?

by stuckinarut2 in

ok, i apologise in advance if this seems irreverent to those who believe in god.. but, the bible says that god (jehovah) impregnated mary.

without her consent.

so that would seem to be rape...right?.

David_Jay

David is on the high functioning end of the autism scale, as I mentioned prior a few days before. I am his brother-in-law.

There was a letter in David's box here, and he wanted me to pass a message to someone named Cofty and Simon and say thank you and close the account. As I mentioned before I read quite a few of the threads before asking David to leave, and in the process I thought I would mention the above information since I saw the question in passing and had the information.

As for me sounding like David. I know we don't, definitely not in real life. But should we sound similar in writing to you maybe it is because we went to the same university, roomed together, and he married my sister. After she passed I have been watching him.

But while we may have similarities due to education, I am quite different than him, I promise you. I know how to call out weak-minded, chicken-shits who like to think people are fucking with them by pretending to be two or three people. You're just saying that because I present a good argument. It's an easy out for you, and I don't give a shit what you've written, Anonymous or whoever you are (with a screen name like that, you shouldn't be talking).

Now. if no one wants to help, and since I can't find a way to get his account removed, forget it. Apparently Jehovah's Witnesses are just as mean, untrusting, judgmental, and abusive to my brother-in-law outside their cult as they were when they were in it.

To those who made it hard on David: Shame on you. If anyone should be acting unlike those fucking Watchtower assholes it's you guys, but apparently you only left their doctrines behind. Their hatred for other religions, their enjoyment of judging others, their intolerance and bigotry, none of that washed off. Instead, from what I can see that you did to David, to an autistic man and with no shame, you revel in and improve their techniques of meanness like a sport.

And If you, Anonymous, still think I'm David, I'm gonna say something just to you that David would never say: Screw you, you cunt, and go to hell!

Forgive me, to you others that David liked, but I was merely looking for help and to help and now I even got a little taste of what he went through. Excuse my language too. But this is one of the most horrible places disguised as a support group I've ever seen!

45

So, is God a rapist!?

by stuckinarut2 in

ok, i apologise in advance if this seems irreverent to those who believe in god.. but, the bible says that god (jehovah) impregnated mary.

without her consent.

so that would seem to be rape...right?.

David_Jay

I am Mr. Dunn, David's friend. I'm searching for a way to get his profile removed.

I'm an atheist. I'm 50 years old, holding several degrees from three universities, never grew up in a religion, especially not one such as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

But even I as an educated atheist man know that this entire thread is actually highly problematic in its arguments.

I respect others right to disagree with the thread, but can they offer a better explanation of the "facts" about Mary's conception?

Yes. There is. Even though I hold no belief in Christianity or Jesus or the New Testament myths, this story from the Gospel of Luke (the only place it occurs) is called "The Annunciation." It is all about Mary saying "yes" to God's invitation to become the mother of Jesus.

In fact, it is so much the opposite of a rape, that the "yes" Mary gives to God in this short story is theologically celebrated as a Holy Day of Obligation in the Roman Catholic Church (a day where all Catholics MUST attend Mass regardless of what day of the year this day falls on).

On this day Mary's "yes" is contrasted to Eve's "no" in following God's invitation to obedience. One woman is asked to not eat of a certain tree that leads to death and she says "no." Another woman is asked to become the mother of a child who will bring life to all humankind and this other woman says "yes." (See the following information on the theological contrast between the two women, though this article is about the Immaculate Conception.)

In my view as an atheist, it's a myth. But I'm also an EDUCATED ATHEIST. That means I know the myth, just like I know the Greek and Roman myths. To get the myths wrong would make me sound like an ignorant asshole. I'm not an ignorant asshole. I know my mythology.

Now I'm not saying any of you are ignorant assholes. This idea for this thread is likely due to being exposed to nothing but the limited world of your Jehovah's Witnesses cult. You folks wouldn't be writing this thread if you had heard of The Annunciation. It's probably printed as a day on your secular calendars too but you've never noticed it or knew what it was. That's what living in a deep, dark hole in the ground, cut off from the real world does to you. You don't even learn the mythology of the world correctly.

The Annunciation is not a story of a rape. It's a story of a woman who said "yes" to a deity when asked if she would act as that deity's handmaiden. She bravely and honorably gave her consent in contrast to Eve, and that's the point of the myth.

Now if someone can tell me how to disconnect David's account. I won't bother you again.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

My name is Charles Dunn. I am David’s friend.

He left very upset to his synagogue tonight. For the past two days he has been posting feverishly on this site after an absence on it for some time. I was hoping he would never go back as it makes him upset. David has some challenges, which he has told me he has shared with this site for the first time tonight.

I have finally got him to agree to stop coming on this site. Whatever it is you folks do to him, it’s not good.

David is a highly intelligent, successful individual and professional. He has spent his life in community projects on a national and international level. At 50 he has much to show for it. He is also on the autism spectrum, highly functioning, what people used to call having Asperger's syndrome.

People on the spectrum can become obsessive. People like him are highly logical and rational. They can see things others can’t, especially when people are lying to themselves. So they can be a little too blunt with us and say things to us we don’t want to hear. That is David. It frustrates him that others don’t like to hear the truth. He doesn’t this.

I apologize if his bluntness has upset anyone. That is his main flaw. He doesn’t realize when he shouldn’t point out another’s problem. Normally people gloss over another’s faults and just move on. David expects people to appreciate being corrected. He enjoys being told where he made a mistake and fixing himself, but you better be right when you do this otherwise he will correct you about your correction.

But I’ve been reading what he’s been writing for the past two days too. And I’ve been reading through this site. I’m sorry for all the hurt you folks have gone through as Jehovah’s Witnesses. I recall David’s own experiences. The hurt shows.

However, there is a lot of unnecessary hate that comes through. A lot. And I hope some of you do something for it because it shows that you need healing.

The reason I got David to promise to never return is because the way his comments about religion gets him treated by some of you here. It get him more than mocked. It him and his words treated with hateful disrespect.

I am an atheist. I have no need for religion. But that type of speech is very, very wrong. I know hurt from your experience as a Jehovah’s Witness is at the basis for most of it, but you direct it at a person and his culture. His religion of Judaism is tied to a people, so every word you say about his religion is about his people and culture. I would never do that. Reading some of your words here is definitely a sign that there is a lack of connection with propriety and social responsibility.

My main concern in David. He doesn’t understand that some of you are being hateful towards him because he’s the easiest and closest thing to hate now that you are out of your cult. But I do. So I am taking him away. And he’s not coming back.

I wish you the best. I hope some of you heal and realize there’s more to being an atheist than hating and mocking religion and religious people.

I will post this in two of the threads he had open tonight to make sure all is settled.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

I didn't say people couldn't be humorous, Sparky1.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

EverApostate,

My wife, who has passed, was an atheist. Her brother, who is still living, is atheist. I'm a practing Jew. I love her brother very much, and he and I are very close. We are the best of friends.

There is a very big difference between him and his atheist friends, most of whom are scholars and academics, and the atheists on this board. My atheist friends are not anti-religious. Most atheists here are very anti-religious.

And yet, this is not an anti-religious board. It is an ex-Jehovah's Witnesses board. Over the years, it has become very intolerant of religious thought and people.

I'm very supportive of atheists, even those with an anti-religious slant. Being a Jew I am often subject to religious persecution by the same religions that persecute atheists. We generally have the same enemies in common. Even if we didn't, I hate the fact that anyone would treat another human as a second-class citizen just because they don't believe in God. My experience with atheists has for the most part been positive, and they have been some of the closest family members of mine.

This forum has of late become an anti-religion forum. But it is advertised still as an ex-JW forum. And though I understand that people are hurt by the Watchtower, and know what that is like because I was a JW too, people focus their anger and hate at anything and anyone religious.

In my case, that is often me and my culture. And it hurts, it hurts a lot. It's insulting, and often anti-Semitic. But I come back again and again.

This isn't an anti-religious forum. There are forums on the Internet that are for anti-religious discussions and jokes. You can rant and rave there. But I understand the need of people to do that here, and I just go ahead and let it happen.

But the opening page of this site reads that this is a place that will...

...provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends.

That isn't really true anymore. People aren't tolerant of things religious. People are intolerant of it. It's just a joke, and often it's a target and something to insult.

You are in the outside world now. Outside the Watchtower, the God of Abraham originates from the culture of the Jews, so does the Old Testament part of the Bible. You make fun of that or say bad things about God, you are saying bad things about a culture and a people, and me. It's called "intolerance." It amounts to "anti-Semitism." This isn't the closed-off world of the Watchtower anymore. You can't say things like some of you have been saying of late without hurting me or a lot of people. You have to learn to stop and think before you type. You need to find healthier ways to deal with your anger and hurt. Some of your speech is boardering on hate speech.

The fact that some of you don't see certain subjects as anything more than a joke says a lot about not realizing how things are really like in the outside world. You want to be outside in the real world. Okay, you are. But now you have rules out here. You can't say certain things. God is not the exclusive property of the Christians. God is also tied to the Jewish culture, a persecuted minority, one that suffered during the Holocaust.

You are outside in the very real world now. I understand the hurt, the pain from the Watchtower days. It's not like I don't feel it too. But there are proper ways to act now. We aren't in the Watchtower anymore.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

EverApostate,

Wasn't offended. I just took it literally.

You said it was a place for joking and suddenly I thought: Oh, oh, David, you did it again!

I almost never share I have autism. It was like I said, practically nobody knows. Now at 50 I've learned how to fit in and for the most part I function like most people in public.

But there are still a few times when things escape me, like cerain low-brow jokes. I am also highly logical.

I also almost never offer my opinions here. Opinions have no logical value since they are based on emotions. People leaving the Watchtower need empirical data, in other words what people call "facts." Jokes and opinions will only cloud the needs of people leaving cults.

We on this board owe it to people reading our posts to separate ourselves, our opinions and feelings from the subject matter, and to post objectively. Sure, a joke here and there is fine, but there is a section for it isn't there?

For the most part we need to answer questions in ways to help Witnesses and ex-JWs think critically so as to leave the Watchtower behind. In order to do this we need to think and answer seriously as often as possible.

Lives are at stake. If you waste your time on here joking, you are wasting a reader's time, a reader who might have limited time on this site because they are still a JW, and might get caught reading this and face disciplinary action because of it. Others are not as free as you to be here on this forum. You can't think only of yourself.

We post a joke, and they have had to scroll past jokes to find real, serious information that they need. That's not fair. There are many people that can't sign up as members and only read out of fear of getting caught, but they seriously need our help, not our jokes.

We have a duty. We are out. We need to help get our brother and sisters out too. That, in my opinion, is not a joking matter.

39

Why pigs???

by stuckinarut2 in

why did jesus supposedly cast the demons into a herd of pigs?.

(matt 8 / luke 8).

and, how were there so many demons inside one man, that when "released" by jesus, it took a whole pack of pigs to contain them??.

David_Jay

EverApostate wrote:

Seems you are taking all religious texts very seriously and trying hard to add substance to it. Take it EZ friend. Religion is all about fun, for most people on this Blog. Just saying. Its your wish to write your mind.

Actually, I try not to write my opinion or personal views on this forum. I am an academic. I'm trying to help ex-JWs find solid answers, not jokes.

I was raised for a short time as a Witness, but if people here are just taking everything I say as a joke, and I don't realize that, then I will leave.

I am 50 years old and am on the autism spectrum, but very high functioning. Most people cannot tell when they meet me. I also have a very high IQ. Combined this might make it hard for me to know when other people are joking. Apparently this has been the case.

So if this is the consensus of everyone here, please let me know by having several people post in the next following statements. I apologize for making this mistake. I have no problem leaving the forum. I didn't realize this was a joke forum.

Autism, even as high functioning as mine, does make me not get jokes some times.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay