Posts by Celestial

26

Are Jehovah's Witnesses fundamentalists?

by Celestial in

i googled the phrase and a q & a from their official media web site appeared within the first few hits:.

http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article32.htm.

are you fundamentalists?.

Celestial

I Googled the phrase and a Q & A from their official media web site appeared within the first few hits:

http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article32.htm

Are you fundamentalists?

While we have strong religious convictions, we are not fundamentalists in the sense that the term has come to be used. We do not believe that every passage in the Bible is to be interpreted literally. We do not pressure political leaders to promote a certain point of view, nor do we resort to demonstrations and violence against those who disagree with us. The Bible teaches Christians to be kind, good, mild, and reasonable—qualities that do not allow for the kind of fanaticism that is sometimes associated with fundamentalism.—James 3:17.

96

Racism on the forum / Treyvon Martin

by Simon in

i've just been catching up on some of the posts that people made about this case and i am appalled at the blatant racism demonstrated by certain individuals.. yes, you are entitlted to your opinion ... but at some point your opinion needs to be kept locked inside your ignorant biggoted empty skull and not come out of your stupid fat mouth.

it especially shouldn't be posted on my forum.. such racism will not be tollerated here.. i also would like to publicly apologise to outlaw for not being on top of this earlier and making sure that he wasn't lumped in with these despicable people for simply pointing out how out-of-line their behavior was.

sorry my friend - you did not deserve that and i understand completely why you have had a break from the site..

Celestial

Just got home and am glad to read this. (for what my opinion is worth)

Many have stated this year that the new racism is to deny that there is racism in our country today. That way, the battle can be fought on flawed logic instead of what the evidence suggests.

I grew up in the deep south and esp Miami, and I am here to tell you that racial prejudice, while shrinking , is still out there big time.

I am disturbed, but not surprised, that threads on this forum regarding Obama (specifically) or Trayvon Martin (amazingly) always turn into a theatre to indulge right wing, neo-con bullcrap.

Why would I debate someone so mentally ill that they would dare presume that Obama is a Muslim? Why would I respond to someone so naive and I'll informed that they think the Martin shooting had nothing to do with racial stereotyping?

Because I can't let ignorance go unchallenged and uneducated.

Being a former JW, I can tell you that being ignorant isn't the big sin. STAYING ignorant is. With a heart full of inherited hate. That is the real battleground.

Racism is the consequence of a scientifically illiterate and primitive man. There may be some that are literate and arrogant at the same time, so they become detached from sound standards of equality and haphazardly adopt a belief as stupid as racism. But the ideology of the “deep south” ("Anglo-Saxon" and "Celtic" blood) is that of a bunch of crazy people. I feel these far right-wing ideologies have been stamped out by education.

The NAACP and similar organizations have yet to forget some of the crimes committed by the Klan that are a part of their legacy. I don't need to be refreshed on the extinct ideology of racism over an unrelated instance of random violence. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me, that race oriented organizations and a complicit media have turned this into a theatre of left wing bullcrap. That's the gist I've gotten so far.

15

Jehovah's Witness converts to Islamic terrorism

by Celestial in

this was a younger brother in one of my prior congregations that i used to go out in field service with in the early 1990's.

we always had the most enlightening conversations and we went out and did recreational things from time to time.

he seemed like a normal guy.

Celestial

This was a younger brother in one of my prior congregations that I used to go out in field service with in the early 1990's. We always had the most enlightening conversations and we went out and did recreational things from time to time. He seemed like a normal guy.

After a while, I moved to another congregation. I lost touch with Jeffrey Battle. The strangest thing happened some years later. Sometime after September 11, 2001 he appeared on national television.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-224_162-524439-2.html

I was like, “Wow, I went door to door with that dude.” He was clean shaven and well groomed as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, so converting to Islamic fundamentalism didn't do much for his appearance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Battle

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2002/10/14/the-portland-six.html

At 6 a.m. Friday, Jeffrey Leon Battle and October Martinique Lewis were asleep in their Portland, Ore., apartment when the team of federal agents, dressed in combat gear, crept up to the front door. For months, the FBI had been secretly tracking the couple's every move, phone call and e-mail, accumulating evidence to prove the two Americans, both converts to Islam, were members of a cell of Osama bin Laden's followers who planned to join Al Qaeda. Convinced they had enough to make their case, the Feds moved in.

Quietly, the agents prepared to make what they call a "keyed entry." The key: a battering ram. Crashing through the door, the Feds rushed to the bedroom, where they handcuffed the couple, who had jolted awake but were still in bed. At about the same moment across town, Patrice Lumumba Ford, another suspected member of the group, stepped out of his apartment to discover eight federal agents with guns ordering him to the ground. That same morning, agents in Detroit arrested Muhammad Bilal, yet another alleged member. Two other alleged conspirators remain free.

Federal investigators are still trying to figure out exactly how the various members of the Portland group came together--and when and why they allegedly decided to turn against their country. All seemed to share an obsession with radical Islam. Battle, 32, was raised in Houston, where he played high-school football and studied to be a hairdresser. Battle's mother, Deanna Douglas, told NEWSWEEK that, as a child, her son was a "jovial, really lovable" prankster.

Battle says she raised her son to be a Jehovah's Witness. But soon after seeing the Spike Lee movie "Malcolm X," he became "very obsessed" with Islam. Battle and his girlfriend October, now 26, converted and began wearing traditional Muslim dress. The two moved to Portland, married and worked for a time at a nursing home. The couple eventually divorced but, oddly, still lived together. Odder still, in 1999 Battle suddenly announced he was joining the U.S. Army Reserves, telling his mother he wanted to get medical training to become a doctor. But a few months after September 11 he was discharged. Last week Ashcroft charged that Battle joined the military only to learn how to fight against Americans. Neighbors recall that last winter, Battle's 6-year-old son argued with other children about the terror attacks. "He told me, 'I'm trying to tell them that 9-11 is a good thing'," Janette Dean, the mother of one child, told NEWSWEEK.

How to piss off an Atheist

by Celestial in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzxf7yuyu2c.

corroborating the issues raised in question 43, how do you personally relate?

as one of jehovah's witnesses, did you ever feel that you had a personal relationship with jehovah and/or jesus christ?.

Celestial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXF7YUyU2c

Corroborating the issues raised in question 43, how do you personally relate? As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, did you ever feel that you had a personal relationship with Jehovah and/or Jesus Christ?

29

Judicial Committee Meetings Sexual Matters

by Celestial in

anyone had three elders (judicial committee) question you on sex before marriage?.

case in point, being raised as one of jehovah's witnesses, i partied with peers that were witnesses by tradition, inherent faith.

at the age of eighteen (1992), i was conversing about the elders with a group of witnesses, and a girl who had been before a judicial committee chimed in and said, they ask questions that are none of their fucking business.

Celestial

Anyone had three elders (judicial committee) question you on “sex before marriage?”

Case in point, being raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I partied with peers that were Witnesses by tradition, inherent faith. At the age of eighteen (1992), I was conversing about the elders with a group of Witnesses, and a girl who had been before a judicial committee chimed in and said, “they ask questions that are none of their fucking business.”

What do you think?

27

DISCUSSION WITH A JW; YOUR INPUT PLEASE...

by Mary in

jw
friends

i'm 'talking' with a jw on another site who of course, does not believe that they are 'false prophets' and says that:.

"...prophetic inspiration and being filled with the spirit ( to use a common expression) do not mean the same thing.".

"...again the wts is using the term "prophet" in the basic sense of a spokesman.

Celestial

Apparently he didn't like what I said because his response to me was deleted by Amazon. Tsk, tsk, tsk......That's certainly not showing the Christian spirit......

You won't come across a person in good standing in the Christian congregation with their spirituality intact that communicates with individuals that are aggressively opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses. You never know what you may here from self-proclaimed Witnesses on the internet, as they're not walking by spirit and are more likely to be inclined by works of the flesh. If you hit a bad nerve that results in a “fit of anger” I wouldn't be surprised.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.

If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit. Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:22-26

Sorry to burst your bubble Paul, but you ARE, by biblical definition, 'false prophets'. Deuteronomy 18: 20-22 describes a false prophet this way:

"...However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him."

You may want to examine the Christian Greek scriptures rather than just the law of Moses for an accurate understanding of a false prophet, false teacher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. His famous Sermon on the Mount representing Mount Zion (pictured here) is considered by many scholars to be the antitype of the proclamation of the comparatively Old Covenant by its mediator Moses from Mount Sinai.

The Early Christians, in considering the Old Testament, needed to decide what its role and purpose for them was, given that Christian revelation and the New Covenant replaced it and many specific Biblical requirements in books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy were no longer to be followed. For example, what to do with alcoholic sons and what defines a false prophet and the actions that should be taken.

“In case a man happens to have a son who is stubborn and rebellious, he not listening to the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and they have corrected him but he will not listen to them, his father and his mother must also take hold of him and bring him out to the older men of his city and to the gate of his place, and they must say to the older men of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he is not listening to our voice, being a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his city must pelt him with stones, and he must die. So you must clear away what is bad from your midst, and all Israel will hear and indeed become afraid. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Compare Matthew 7:15-20, 2 Peter 2:1 and 1 John 4:1 for a clear definition of a false prophet in the context of Christianity. Matthew 7:15-20 identifies a person’s motives and actions: “Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those [men].”

I may not be in good standing, but I don't relate to the lot in life of virulent opposers that ridicule and attempt to criminalize Jehovah's Witnesses like it's a contact sport. Most of these militant opposers are strictly materialists, completely disconnected from the slightest notion of spirituality.

“In the last time there will be ridiculers, proceeding according to their own desires for ungodly things.” These are the ones that make separations, animalistic [men], not having spirituality. Jude 18, 19

The object of a person's faith and devotion isn't the men in Brooklyn, NY or apostate hangups on trivial matters that can be overlooked. Jehovah actively sustains a person's faith. That's what I remember anyway.

8

JW Child Custody.

by Celestial in

upon first glimpse, i thought this was a specialized service of a legitimate law firm, but as it turns out, it's simply a selective presentation of exploitable religious issues enacted by a former elder (william bowen).. http://jwchildcustody.com/ .

dont allow your children to be turned against you!.

statistics show that over 1,000 custody cases are fought each year involving jehovahs witness children.

Celestial

Lawsuit filed against associates in Glen Howe's firm.

http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=536

Alberta’s top court has permitted the father of a Jehovah’s Witness teenager who died of leukemia to sue, on behalf of his daughter’s estate, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Canada lawyers who he alleges advised her to reject the blood transfusions prescribed by doctors.

The estate’s claims for alleged “misrepresentation and deceit”– which are vigorously denied by the two defendant lawyers – venture into terra incognita at the crossroads of lawyers’ religious beliefs and duties and their professional obligations.

“The boundaries of freedom of religion are too unclear to warrant striking out” the plaintiff’s claims, the Alberta Court of Appeal wrote in reversing, in part, a decision below in favour of the defendant lawyers and the Watch Tower Society which struck some of the claims.

Early transfusions used whole blood, but modern medical practice commonly uses only components of the blood, such as red blood cells, white blood cells, plasma, clotting factors, and platelets. While Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood for religious reasons, more patients and their doctors now choose to go bloodless by using precise surgical techniques and safe preventive measures.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't identify a legitimate medical condition as baseless, they simply avoid a specific treatment for religious reasons unlike some religious movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry

Scientology and psychiatry have come into conflict since the foundation of Scientology in 1952. Scientology is publicly, and often vehemently, opposed to both psychiatry and psychology. Scientologists view psychiatry as a barbaric and corrupt profession and encourage alternative care based on spiritual healing. According to the Church of Scientology, psychiatry has a long history of improper and abusive care. The group's views have been strongly disputed, criticized and condemned by experts in the medical and scientific community and been a source of public controversy.

This position is actually quite serious according to the executive summary of a report by the United States surgeon general:

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/summary.html

The United States leads the world in understanding the importance of overall health and well-being to the strength of a Nation and its people. What we are coming to realize is that mental health is absolutely essential to achieving prosperity. According to the landmark “Global Burden of Disease” study, commissioned by the World Health Organization and the World Bank, 4 of the 10 leading causes of disability for persons age 5 and older are mental disorders. Among developed nations, including the United States, major depression is the leading cause of disability. Mental disorders are tragic contributors to mortality, with suicide perennially representing one of the leading preventable causes of death in the United States and worldwide.

This was stated by the National of Institute of Mental Health in 2001:

http://www.wvdhhr.org/bhhf/scienceonourminds/nimh%20pdfs/11%20invisible.pdf

Depression can be devastating to family relationships, friendships, and the ability to work or go to school. Many people still believe that the emotional symptoms caused by depression are “not real,” and that a person should be able to shake off the symptoms. Because of these inaccurate beliefs, people with depression either may not recognize that they have a treatable disorder or may be discouraged from seeking or staying on treatment due to feelings of shame and stigma. Too often, untreated or inadequately treated depression is associated with suicide.

I was never a scientologist, but reading the position of scientologists regarding mental health and my own experiences don't particularly inspire any appreciation for the Church of Scientology. I'll relay what I think about an adult's standing on the blood issue a bit later.

8

JW Child Custody.

by Celestial in

upon first glimpse, i thought this was a specialized service of a legitimate law firm, but as it turns out, it's simply a selective presentation of exploitable religious issues enacted by a former elder (william bowen).. http://jwchildcustody.com/ .

dont allow your children to be turned against you!.

statistics show that over 1,000 custody cases are fought each year involving jehovahs witness children.

Celestial

Glen Howe represented my ex husband in a custody issue in Toronto in 1979. Long story but my children were returned to me after being abducted by their father for six months and taken to another province. He had lied to the court.

An attorney represents a client's plea, advises them on legal ramifications applicable to their case and cross-examines witnesses. An attorney's legal presentation based on a client's plea and corroborating testimony and evidence is a general proceeding in a court of law.

However, an attorney is protected by a legal separation from his or her representation and a client's testimony to protect a lawyer from perjury in the case that a client may be lying to him. Assuming this lawyer represented your ex-husband, how did he knowingly lie to the court outside of this arrangement? “Manipulation of the legal system” means finding loopholes in the legal system that are legal by statute, but are unethical using common sense.

I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm just attempting to establish the facts.

8

JW Child Custody.

by Celestial in

upon first glimpse, i thought this was a specialized service of a legitimate law firm, but as it turns out, it's simply a selective presentation of exploitable religious issues enacted by a former elder (william bowen).. http://jwchildcustody.com/ .

dont allow your children to be turned against you!.

statistics show that over 1,000 custody cases are fought each year involving jehovahs witness children.

Celestial

Upon first glimpse, I thought this was a specialized service of a legitimate law firm, but as it turns out, it's simply a selective presentation of exploitable religious issues enacted by a former elder (William Bowen).

http://jwchildcustody.com/

Don’t Allow Your Children To Be Turned Against You!

Statistics show that over 1,000 custody cases are fought each year involving Jehovah’s Witness children. Of those cases over 90% will be lost due to Watchtower Lawyer manipulation of the legal system.

It's not necessarily a legal tactic that's well received by all persons exposed to Jehovah's Witnesses for the same reason I use the term “exploitable.”

In 39 years of being associated with Jehovah's organization, I've never been exposed to any child custody case where a "Watchtower lawyer" represented either parent. This is a claim made by William Bowen. He seems to use scare tactic to attract potential clients while charging them for his “services.”

http://jwchildcustody.com/Problem.html

Tens of thousands of non-JW parents have discovered too late they do not know what they are up against when Watchtower Attorneys get involved in custody cases. Typical law firms are unfamiliar with the complicated structure of the Jehovah’s Witness religion as well as the strategies and ploys used by Watchtower Lawyers to drive up court costs and make a mockery of the court process.

Upfront, he charges $19.95 simply for an electronic e-book to be sent via email.

http://jwchildcustody.com/childcustodypacket.html

To order an electronic e-book to be sent to your email click here: Cost - $19.95

After a few minutes of online research, I turned up W. Glen How & Associates in Georgetown, Ont., as a firm that represents the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the legal organization in use by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

David M. Gnam, a lawyer for W. Glen How & Associates, replied to a claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are a part of a relgious belief known as "faith healing."

Jehovah's Witnesses not "faith healing" parents

As for alleged "Watchtower attorneys" in a child custody case, I've never been aware of any legal representation appointed by the Watchtower society to individual congregation members for the purposes of family law. It could be that I've been misinformed. I have three elders in my family. I could ask them if the Watchtower society appoints family lawyers in child custody disputes.

I feel another organization that utilizes identical tactics has answered the question.

http://www.jehovahswitnessesexperts.com/Articles/Refutation/refutation.html

The following quote appeared in the Watchtower publication called Our Kingdom Ministry in Aug. 1992 vol 35.

“A packet of legal materials is available when publishers are involved in lawsuits over child custody and visitation. The packet contains court decisions and other materials designed to assist an attorney who is representing a publisher whose parental fitness is being challenged because of his or her religious beliefs or practices. The Society's Legal Department should be contacted by the body of elders if (a) court papers or legal documents indicate that the publisher's religion is going to be attacked; (b) apostate literature, a religious expert, or a former Witness will be used to testify against the publisher; (c) a pretrial deposition of the publisher will be taken; or (d) a psychological examination or home study is scheduled. The packet offers no assistance in cases involving secular issues such as support and property.” Our Kingdom Ministry in Aug. 1992 vol 35.

If the Watchtower society appointed family lawyers in child custody disputes upon contacting the Society's Legal Department, there would be no need for information to assist an attorney who is representing a publisher whose parental fitness is being challenged because of his or her religious beliefs or practices.

http://www.jehovahswitnessesexperts.com/Articles/Refutation/refutation.html

The booklet, “Preparing for Child Custody Cases” advises Witnesses to give testimony to the court which is knowingly false, It is this strategy that the Watchtower Society deems appropriate even calling it “Theocratic war strategy” in the Watchtower magazine.

How does the booklet, “Preparing for Child Custody Cases” advise Witnesses to give testimony to the court which is knowingly false?

9

The cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil

by Celestial in

the idea of a cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil has prompted endless speculation by writers and philosophers throughout history.

there is a book, however, that contains the accurate history of the battle between god and the devil.

that book is the bible.

Celestial

“The idea of a cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil has prompted endless speculation by writers and philosophers throughout history. There is a book, however, that contains the accurate history of the battle between God and the Devil. That book is the Bible. It sheds light on the issues involved in this conflict and provides the means of determining who has really won.” Watchtower 01/15/03

I read this book in 1998 (Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement with the Occult by Peter Levenda) that indicated occultists reverse the typical understanding of the elite Biblical forces behind the battle of good and evil.

http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Alliance-Peter-Levenda/dp/0380777223

Key points of the book indicated that occult secret societies superficially turn on their own current public machinations when they sense opportunity presented by political wind blowing in a new direction, then simply resurface under a new political approach when the advantage of the situation has been realized. In order to detect and understand this, it is necessary to have some background on the core theology of this occult battle.

The essence of it is this: that the God of the Bible - Jehovah or Yahweh (YHWH) is not a supreme being, but the jealous and vengeful Satan, and that Samael (Satan) is the real God of light who is endeavoring to "free" man into "liberty" from the yoke of Jehovah who wants to keep us in ignorance. Hence, the serpent (or dragon as they prefer to refer to him as) is the "God" of wisdom.

This theology is always consistent. Refer to the belief system of the Gnostics, Mandeans, Goths and "St. John" Christians. You will also find this completely agrees with the writings of the Freemason’s if you pursue some of the treatises of their more well known authors, as well as of course, the accusations made against the Knights Templar. The occult religion of the Nazi party is entirely consistent with this. The objective was destroying the yoke of Jehovah, and the biggest advocate of Jehovah was the Jews and that is why they were singled out for special treatment.

Interestingly enough, the Hebrews (Jews) justified the ethnic cleansing of the Canaanites in 1467 B.C.E., when the initial conquest of Canaan reached its conclusion.

There have been some Jewish Sects who have incorporated elements of this heresy in their secret doctrines, such as the early Judeo-Gnostics and probably the infamous Benjamites. It is a very tangled tale, but the important point to always remember is that the objective is not ascendancy of whatever current public organizational device they are using, but the ascendancy of the idea; the idea that Samael is the God of light, liberty and wisdom, while Jehovah is the God of darkness, tyranny and ignorance.

The struggle is still carried on by modern day occultists. It's just an interesting twist from the usual push and shove between theists and atheists. It's not my position, just an observation.

http://see_the_truth.webs.com/index.htm

The following articles provide proof that everything in the Christian religion and in the bible has been stolen from other religions that predated it from all around the world. Christianity is a tool for removing spiritual/occult knowledge from the populace so this power can be kept in the hands of a few to manipulate and enslave the masses.

To really understand the Bible and see the truth, one must be very well educated in the occult. The mass mind is very powerful. When one studies long enough and acquires advanced knowledge of the occult, the truth is utterly shocking. The entire Judeo/Christian Bible is a hoax of catastrophic proportions with a very clear objective using subliminal means and the channeled psychic energy of believers.

Whenever Christianity or its cohorts took control of a country or region, the ancient spiritual texts and records were removed and/or destroyed and those who had spiritual knowledge were mass murdered by the Inquisition. This took out of circulation the very knowledge those in power have used and still use to manipulate the ignorant population using spiritual/occult power. The Bible is one of the most powerful subliminal tools used by a select few to enslave the masses. Most people are unaware of this because they lack knowledge regarding the occult, thought power, and psychic energy. The powers that be work to reinforce the belief that the occult, powers of the mind and spirit are nonsense or just plain bunk.

Destroying the ancient records allowed an alternative invented "history" to be written which has disconnected humanity from its true origins. Controlling history is important because if one manipulates how people see what we call the past, this influences the present and the future.

The entire Bible is an extremely powerful subliminal tool full of occult numbers, messages, allegories, and stolen material, which has been corrupted from ancient religions. In addition, this book has been infused with psychic energy and power to instill fear and to make it believable. When one's eyes are opened and one has the necessary knowledge, the *spell* will no longer be effective.

There are vacuum-sealed vaults in the Vatican library containing thousands upon thousands of ancient esoteric books from around the world that have been stolen and hoarded over the years and kept out of public circulation. The Catholic Church, which is the root of the Christian religion, is controlled by a secret society that has abused occult power to enslave the masses. The end goal is the total enslavement of humanity, which they have worked towards relentlessly and ruthlessly.