Posts by DogGone

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Ha ha. Do I ever. It's a touchy subject. I once suggested that just because you had pedophile attractions it didn't make you a monster (though professional help was in order). I was accused of advocating child abuse and promptly deleted my post.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Stillin, it is crazy how much data they collect. That one big US study which followed all released convicts included over 300,000 people. These aren't just anamolies.

I was able to find the new link for the Public Safety Canada paper: http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-eng.aspx Now this paper does not include some of the more recent studies noted in the Wikipedia article, but it is still a good read.

Most sexual offenders do not re-offend sexually over time. This may be the most important finding of this study as this finding is contrary to some strongly held beliefs. After 15 years, 73% of sexual offenders had not been charged with, or convicted of, another sexual offence. The sample was sufficiently large that very strong contradictory evidence is necessary to substantially change these recidivism estimates. Other studies have found similar results. Hanson and Bussière's (1998) quantitative review of recidivism studies found an average recidivism rate of 13.4% after a follow-up period of 4-5 years (n = 23,393). In a recent U.S. study of 9,691 sex offenders, the sexual recidivism rate was only 5.3% after three years (Langan, Schmitt, & Durose, 2003).

What I found most interesting was the difference in the rates for different abuser profiles. It was dramatic and changed a few myths I had in my head. Age is a factor in the rates of reoffence - older offenders are less likely to reoffend than younger offenders. Offenders of boys more likely than girls. Offenders who targetted someone outside the family more likely than an incestuous offender.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Talesin,

I wish you were correct and it was that simple. It is not. I am also concerned about misinformation which is why I posted authoritative links to back my claims. I'll certainly provide the benefit of the doubt; you may not have had the time or inclination to read them. But, I'm sure you are as concerned about accuracy as I am. I'm not a lawyer and I welcome the opportunity to be corrected if I am misunderstanding any point of law.

1. There is no federal reporting law requiring mandatory reporting. There are, however, reporting laws in every province. Those laws are not all exactly the same. (ref: http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=404&Itemid=284

2. Every province requires reporting when a child is "in need of protection" or "at risk". This requirement overrides any confidentiality requirements excepting Lawyers. In Simon's scenario the Walmart employee WOULD be required to report in the law of every province I am familiar with. If some have read my posts to indicate that is NOT the case then I am truly sorry. If a child is "in need of protection" you have an absolute lawful duty to report in Canada. Sadly, however, that does NOT mean, as you suggest, every case of abuse must be reported under the laws of Canada. I refer you to the law in BC which defines when reporting is required:

(b) if the child has been, or is likely to be, sexually abused or exploited by the child's parent;

(c) if the child has been, or is likely to be, physically harmed, sexually abused or sexually exploited by another person and if the child's parent is unwilling or unable to protect the child;

(ref:http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96046_01#section14 Part 3 - Section 13 and 14)

(ref: http://www.mcf.gov.bc.ca/child_protection/pdf/handbook_action_child_abuse.pdf Page 41)

There is a loophole there you can drive a bus through. The wording is slightly different in Ontario:

2. The child has been sexually molested or sexually exploited, by the person having charge of the child or by another person where the person having charge of the child knows or should know of the possibility of sexual molestation or sexual exploitation and fails to protect the child.

3. There is a risk that the child is likely to be sexually molested or sexually exploited as described in paragraph 3.

(ref: http://www.children.gov.on.ca/htdocs/english/documents/topics/childrensaid/Reportingchildabuseandneglect.pdf Page 8 and 9)

(ref: Section 72 (1) of the Child and Family Services Act - Province of Ontario)

In case you question my interpretation of the law, you may find this page from The Canadian Medical Protective Association helpful:

Duty to report

Every province and territory has legislation that imposes a duty on physicians to report to a child protection agency if there are reasonable grounds to believe that a child is in need of protection (which includes sexual abuse).

Although the Criminal Code does not oblige a physician to report a sexual offence, physicians must consider whether they have such an obligation under their provincial/territorial legislation.

For example, if a physician suspects that a youth is engaging in sexual activity with a person who is older than the exempted age difference, the physician may be required to report this information to a child protection agency, particularly where the child’s parent is unwilling or unable to protect the child. A similar reporting duty may exist if the physician suspects a child under the age of 12 is engaged in any sexual activity. The physician will wish to consider many factors including the extent to which the child is at risk of sexual abuse or exploitation, and the nature of the relationship with the parents.

(ref: http://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/cmpapd04/docs/resource_files/perspective/2010/02/com_p1002_10-e.cfm)

Of course you have a moral duty to report. Of course you do. Sadly, you may not have a legal requirement if, say, the parents are informed and have taken steps to protect the child. In the context of this thread, I think it is important to note where religious organizations have wiggle room. That they exploit this wiggle room to protect thier "reputation" and to protect offenders is deplorable. These laws need improvement.

3. It is certainly NOT a fact that every molester will reoffend. As if a reason to report is because you are certain they will reoffend. NUTZ. You report because a child is hurt and needs professional help. You report because this needs to be handled by professionals. You report because you want the abuser stopped incase it should happen again. You report because your heart is broke and you must do something. You don't report because of some made up statistic.

Frankly, as someone who has some experience with adolescent abusers, your statement is infuriating. The reality born out by many studies in many countries is that the majority of convicted sexual criminals do not reoffend. Those who seek treatment, support groups, and learn victim empathy have improved success rates. Please do not repeat this 97% lie. Abusers need to hear that they CAN stop and should not be given this constant societal message that they can't, that they are doomed, that they are absolutely unable to control themselves, that they WILL reoffend. The internal message is "Either kill yourself or just go ahead and reoffend already." It's so wrong and so counterproductive.

Earlier I linked to a 2010 entry in the Harvard Mental Health Letter which noted:

One long-term study of previously convicted pedophiles (with an average follow-up of 25 years) found that one-fourth of heterosexual pedophiles and one-half of homosexual or bisexual pedophiles went on to commit another sexual offense against children.

The other link was from Public Safety Canada which had a great review of the studies available. Although up two days ago, it is offline at the moment. Although not something I like to point to normally, Wikipedia has a decent article which links to some of those studies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender

A 2002 study by the United States Department of Justice indicated that recidivism rates among sex offenders was 5.3 percent; that is, about 1 in 19 of released sex offenders were later arrested for another sex crime. The same study mentioned that 68 percent of released non-sex offenders were rearrested for any crime (both sex and non-sex offenses), while 43 percent of the released sex offenders were rearrested for any crime (and 24 percent re-convicted). [3]

A collection of official studies spanning the years 1983–2010 for all 50 states and the federal government of the US has been assembled. This URL provides a spreadsheet and .zip file containing sources supporting the DOJ study, where the average recidivism of sex offenders committing new sex crimes since 1983 is approximately 9 percent, compared to the 42 percent average recidivism rate for all felony offenders committing any new felony offense.

According to the Office of Justice Programs (OJP) of the United States Department of Justice, [4] in New York State the recidivism rate for sex offenders has been shown to be lower than any other crime except murder. Another report from the OJP which studied the recidivism of prisoners released in 1994 in 15 states (accounting for two-thirds of all prisoners released in the United States that year) [5] reached the same conclusion.

I apologize for resorting to Wikipedia. But if you are interested there are links to government sources for your consideration at the bottom of the article.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Simon,

Your post is very sensible. However, I think we are barking up the wrong tree. If we want mandatory reporting by religious institutions we need to change the laws. Only slightly over half of the States require mandatory reporting by clergy. Only 6 states, that I am aware of, disallow clergy privilege in the case of confessions (https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/manda.pdf). I'm not saying cases where an abuser comes forward should be treated differently than when the information comes by another route - I'm just stating that they ARE treated differently under the law. We will have much greater success changing the law than the WT.

In Canada, my own country, the Catholic Church published a booklet in 1992 stating "Everyone has a duty to report sexual abuse". Reporting has, evidently, been the internal policy since 2003. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2010/04/12/vatican-abuse-guidelines.html) However, some provinces, it is my understanding, only require reporting if there is a child "in need of protection". The requirement to report does not extend to confessions of past crimes, whether to the clergy, a physician, or a counselor. I believe the argument is to enable abusers an avenue to receive assistance so as not to abuse again.

Readers, please don’t flame me. I’m not advocating any given variation of the reporting laws. I’m stating what I understand to be fact about the law. It is my opinion that if you want real change get ahold of your political representative and make it happen. Flame me on that opinion all you want <grin>.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Jhine,

The intent of my second post was to provide a bit of support for Stillin. I felt he was being piled on - and not just by one person. It wasn't my intent to shame you. I appreciated reading your further emails and can certainly understand where you are coming from. It is an issue worth getting worked up about!

There is blame with the WT, for sure. Even as individuals we grow and learn. As a society we are slowly learning. The lack of reporting is not unique to the WT or to JWs. However, I certainly agree that other institutions have been quicker to respond with positive change. Those who should be in a position to provide insight are too often, in my insignificant opinion, making matters worse. It has been said around here that DF’ing an abuser doesn't help society at large. I think it is far worse than that. You take someone with so dangerous a disorder, you discourage him/her from seeking mental health assistance, you cut off all social contact with established social support systems, then you turn him/her loose without notifying authorities. I can't think of a more explosive situation.

One thing I feel I know is that secrecy is the absolute worst thing in these situations. In my dream world the secrecy about all of this would be long gone. That would take a social maturity I'm afraid is completely lacking.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Stillin,

I don't really want to stick my head into the lion’s mouth, but I did want to say that I'm terribly sorry to hear about your family history. Some of your story resonates with my own. I think it incredibly insensitive that others feel they can publically call you out and shame you without knowing you or the facts of your story.

I admire you for your polite demeanor in the face of personal attacks. I don’t doubt you love your family and I wanted to, at least, speak up and say I appreciate your input. I also appreciate those who have responded to you in a thought out manner.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Talesin,

Where did you get the figure of 97% for recidivism? It is a different figure than I have encountered before. Did you, perhaps, mean that 97% of convicted perps have more than one victim? That sounds likely; I would appreciate learning where that figure came from.

Recidivism rates have been studied and published. As a side bar, there is considerable variation with recidivism rates between incestuous victims, female victims, and male victims. Notably, perps with non-familial male victims have dramatically higher recidivism rates:

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/res/cor/rep/2004-03-se-off-eng.aspx

It is also worth noting whether the study included in the recidivism criteria any crime, any sexual crime (eg. prostitution), or any sexual crime involving rape or molestation.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Mental_Health_Letter/2010/July/pessimism-about-pedophilia

Please note: I'm merely trying to insert information that may be more accurate. In no way am I saying incestuous perps should get off easier in a judicial or congregational setting. I have read that incestuous cases have been known to cause more long term harm (much like cases involving religious leaders) due to the exploited trust and additional emotional manipulation. I just think the 97% figure may be inaccurate and misleading.

17

When You Were A Witness Did You Tattle? Snoop?

by OneStepOut93 in

were you one of the witnesses that tattled and tried to find people doing "wrong"?.

or did you ever tattle on someone and regretted it later?

would you take it back?.

DogGone

Yes, I tattled on myself a number of times. Sadly, one of those accidentally involved another. It may be worth telling the story.

I was a teenager - let's say 15. Camping with another JW male friend and some touching occured- massaging - clothing was on - just horny youth stuff. Of course, I felt terrible, guilty, worthy of death. It took a few months to confess, but I did. It was a big deal trying to figure out whether this was Pornea or Loose Conduct. My, how bloody important that distinction was. PAINFUL. I was asked to call my friend in the other city and tell him he had to talk to the elders. Can you imagine! Well, after a few days I sucked it up and called.... ring ring... spoke with the dad, friend wasn't home. Never tried again. Elders never asked. Then the CO came to town and a meeting was held with me. I guess it was the Elder's job to contact the guilty party - oops. So I gave up the name when asked.

Well, that was it for the friendship. Next convention we passed in the hallway and he made a show of being really nice and saying hi; I did the same. His family scowled and pulled him away.

Hope he is doing well. What should have been just adolescent exporation was a shameful semi-public spectacle.

21

Beyond Bitterness?

by DogGone in

like many, my path to the ttatt was a long and painful journey.

i wasnt mature or intellectually honest enough to "wake up" while still an active witness.

(i applaud those who have awaken while active; that is mental rigour i wish i had!

DogGone

Whathappened - it is terrific how you are able to help others. My mother is a similar case. She was never baptized and had nothing to do with the religion once she became a teenager. However, she always carried guilt that she was not living up to the “truth”. A year ago she searched about TTATT on the internet and is now free from the guilt. She spoke about it with me like it was the most amazing news. I felt foolish that I was too uncomfortable to have discussed it with her before.

Bob_NC – your perspective is very balanced. Thank-you for your suggestion to pass on CoC. It is an excellent one. I think I might just do that. Put the book in his hands and see if he has the courage to dive in.

21

Beyond Bitterness?

by DogGone in

like many, my path to the ttatt was a long and painful journey.

i wasnt mature or intellectually honest enough to "wake up" while still an active witness.

(i applaud those who have awaken while active; that is mental rigour i wish i had!

DogGone

Like many, my path to the TTATT was a long and painful journey. I wasn’t mature or intellectually honest enough to "wake up" while still an active Witness. (I applaud those who have awaken while active; that is mental rigour I wish I had!) I had to confess my sins repeatedly, get disfellowshipped, be denied reinstatement, and then slowly, layer by layer, work my mind free.

I actually thanked my judicial committee when they disfellowshipped me. I thought this would help me out of my sinful state and was a loving provision from Jehovah. I would defend the JW religion to non-believers when I told them my story – I’d say that I had broken the rules. “See, they are principled and honest!” Pure d enial.

Eventually, after obsessive study I began to understand. The entire mental edifice just collapsed. I had created so many exceptions, so many “double think” threads that, when I looked at it, I said to myself “If this is the Truth, how exactly does it look any different than a lie?”

For a while I was angry and bitter. I lost much and my pain was immense. Now, I look at it that whole chapter of my life with a mix of humour and sadness.

My close friend, who gave up a failed Pioneer career, was disfellowshipped for visiting with myself and another disfellowshipped mutual friend (separate occasions). His self-righteous older brother has followed the hardline, as has his father. Half a decade later, my good friend is still so bitter, so angry. His experience permeates his life.

We all have different stories, makeups, and consequences for abandoning the club. He has much to be hurt, bitter, and angry about.

Recently, we were talking at length over scotch with a few other x-JWs I’m fortunate enough to call my friends. He, once again, was on with his favourite topic, “the Truth” and how angry he is. I asked him to stop calling it “the Truth” since we all know it is not. He said “I know but I can’t. It won’t leave me!”

My wonderful friend is angry with God. The rest of us don’t particularly believe G(g)od is relevant.

I wonder what internal movement, what thought, what kind word, helped move you from bitterness to acceptance? In particular, was there anything some kindly friend showed you or said? I’m not sure it is my place to push him into apostasy… however, it is an infinitely happier place to be than the quasi-believer weeping and gnashing his teeth because he’s outside the party.

I appreciate any thoughts.