Posts by pomegranate

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

>>In the Great South Land, that's what we call something that's utter rubbish.<<

It's one thing to label something rubbish, it's another thing to prove the claim.

>>I guess that's judging too, eh?>>

No that's finding something good in others. Judging is negative, of which I stressed a positive.

Matt 5:43-45
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."

There is NOTHING worse than ones ENEMIES and those inflicting PERSECUTION (shunning) on another. If you LOVE your enemy, you will not judge EVEN THEM negatively even when they think what they are doing is right.

So, if Christ says to LOVE even our enemies and our persecutors, who else is there for us to judge? Our BROTHER? Who are we to judge Oz? Tell me who?

DO NOT JUDGE...

Edited by - pomegranate on 14 September 2002 12:13:12

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

>>"Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood."

The words of that old rock song come to mind here.<<

Well Oz, you have yet to explain yourself, and Joe here seems to think judging another man, ANY MAN, negatively is OK. You? (Good tune, Eric Burden and the Animals.)

>>Somehow, we seem to have gotten into a discussion about judging Dubs; something I never meant.<<

Well Mr. Oz here are your exact words:

"Are the R&F [rank & file JW's] guilty of sharing in the sins of the Borg? IMO they are."

The above is a pure unauthorized NEGATIVE judgment call of MANY other men by a man who is a sinner. Simply wrong Biblically.

>>My point had been that the R&F can be just as guilty of abominable conduct as the so-called leaders.<<

Who may I ask are you to make that judgment call?

It is no secret that some WILL be guilty of sharing in the sins of others, but guess what? That is another judgment call that has to be made by God. Oz, have you ever thought that you too may be sharing in the sins of others by being a judge unauthorized? You could be in the collected class of ones sinning called "The unauthorized to judge" sinners class.

Moses was a murderer. Rahab a two bit slut whore. Saul before becoming Paul a Pharisaic gang land murderer of Christ's people. David? Well he's got quite the record. Each one was chosen by God not becasue of their works, but because GOD WANTED THEM by HIS JUDGMENT. The very JW you may be pointing your finger of judgment at, may very well be one that may be chosen or used by God. Who knows? Do you? I know I don't. My point is, you could be judging somone God has ALREADY planted as his OWN for his own purpose. Good advice is: Lay off ALL NEGATIVE judgment, that is GOD'S territory alone.

>>It was in response to comments on other threads wherein it was asserted that all were innocent.<<

How bout this, and it's Biblical as all get out. It is not my judgment, it is God's Word speaking:

WE ARE ALL GUILTY.

Rom 3:10
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

I AM AS GUILTY AS AN ACTIVE JW...even though I am not. Me NOT being a JW is not going to give me favorable judgment by God. That is what's true for me. Though you and Joseph may not care to admit it, it is the same for you.

>>I cannot accept that, and for reasons stated in my post. I see that many individual R&F are very willing to exercise the hateful actions that they feel the Borgmeisters have commanded.<<

Just like the Apostle Paul maybe? How come you don't bitch about they way he was and yet God chose him? When's the last time a dub took a life for his beliefs? Paul did it all the time before his FORCED conversion. At least the dubs aren't murdering people and physically torturing people like Paul was doing.

>>This includes members of my own family; something which has been quite well-documented here. See, for example, a thread I started on "The Un-Invitation Card".<<

I have some of my own family in, I know the deal. I still ain't going to judge them though. I try to remain neutral, yet it is sinful inclination to adversely judge.

>>Nonetheless, I'm reminded of Jesus' words during test: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." <<

You can't adversely make judgment and forgive at the same time. They are as far apart as the East and the West.

That same dude said this, "DO NOT JUDGE"

So I don't. (though sometimes I do and I sin for doing it. It this darn sinful flesh my spirit resides in. It's so overpowering ya know?)

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

>>I have nothing to fear.<<

Beware that you do not fall.

>>You seem to be the one with the problem.<<

Just showing some fine counsel to another man who refuses to accept it. That's not my problem.

>>Others judge me all the time and more often than not it is to the good.<<

Not according to Jesus. According to you.

>>I just had a retirement party where they went over my life at the plant and it was a great testimony. And there was plenty of food there as well. So judging works to the good as well as to the detriment depending upon the circumstances.<<

Judging someone else is always meant as a negative thing in the Bible. Nobody stable would counsel another for positive remarks, and nobody stable would call talking about someones good life at a job as "judgment." Surely I comprehend "judging" to mena two different things, such as judging when to cross the street. That judgment is my own for myself. When Somone else starts to take their personal NEGATIVE JUDGMENT and apply it to another...that's where their dead wrong.

>>That is why humanity will be divided into sheep and goats.<<

Based on a the real Judges own standards not by an old retired man who wishes to be a judge.

>>All this is based upon biblical principals.<<

Actually, I believe it is all based on whatever it is God wants to do in love and mercy.

>>I really enjoyed your childish remarks. They made me smile and that was great.<<

Insult? Thank you. I accept it gladly.

Mark 10:15
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Edited by - pomegranate on 14 September 2002 9:13:1

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

That TOTALLY eliminates ALL JUDGING of any sort of my fellow man by me.

Well, I guess Joseph has his pants all up in a ball to be a judge. So, as the famous Beatle song says:

Let It Be.

5

In the name of Jesus Christ

by stichione in

jw
friends

as members of the "other sheep" we were always taught to conclude our prayers with the words: "in jesus christ, amen".

what i don't get though is, why are we praying to god in jesus' name if jesus christ is not the mediator of the "other sheep" but only of the "little flock?

we are instead taught that only by associating ourselves with the watchtower society can we hopefully/maybe be saved.

pomegranate

I believe that would be a bogus teaching. Not the Jesus name part, the two classes of sheep teaching.

Christ taught one flock one shepherd.

JW's teach two flocks, one flock has a good shepherd and the other flock has a governing body.

Go figure.

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

>>The verses in Romans deal with covenant breakers, Christians keeping the LAW against which Paul constantly fought.

Paul is admonishing them on this: "for at whatever point you judge the other" which is NOT the Law.

He is NOT talking about law here. Law isn't mentioned ONCE in chapter one, nor is it mentioned in the slightest in the beginning of chapter two. Paul is stating AT WHATEVER POINT YOU JUDGE another man, you shall be condemned. No mention of LAW. It was for JUDGING ANOTHER MAN FOR ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.

>>And Paul was judging them here, in fact he did more then that. The same verse 3 you use shows it like this:

:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? <<

Paul was NOT judging them AT ALL. He was telling them not to judge, because if they do they are in for it from God. That isn't Paul's personal judgment, that is a simple stated fact based on God's Word.

>>Sounds like Paul is judging them rather harshly. He points out the error of their ways first of course before putting the hammer to them.<<

Paul never judged ANYONE here, and Paul NEVER put the hammer to anyone here. He spoke to them with strong words of admonition, stop the judging crap or you are in for it from God. Not his judgment, GOD'S TRUTH.

>>The simple truth is that judging the way Ozzie did and the way I have done by explaining their problems the way Paul does and exposing them is both good and proper.<<

Exposing is NOT judging. When someone calls someone NOT INNOCENT, they have taken on the robe of righteousness and called someone GULITY. If that is what you and Ozzie have taken upon yourself to do, you had better take Paul's counsel a little more seriously. Paul's words are admonition and not judgment. I would admonish you to accept them.

>>Wow, that blow was right in the kisser. That is what Ozzie did and that is what I did. It does not matter if you understand it or not.<<

I understand what Paul is saying. He is exposing people like you and Ozzie, men who were riddled in the congregation of Rome. Men just like the JW's who feel they can judge others RIGHTEOUSLY. JW's judge on the inside, you and Ozzie judge on the outside.

Both are improperly judging.

You expose by saying: I don't believe this because the Bible says that.

You judge by saying: They are NOT INNOCENT AS DOVES, they are guilty.

>>James 4:11-12
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?

The simple truth here is that we are no longer LAW as James believed for many years after Pentecost but are now freed from it. So Jews should stop picking on other Jews or Gentiles that no longer keep it. The simple truth here is that James is now critical of the very ones that once followed his lead. James now judges their actions by calling them bad instead of good.

That has to be one of the most convoluted pieces of confusion I have ever read.

>>Matt 7:1,2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

This teaching of our Lord deals with those that are hypocrites and improperly judging others. It does not mean that such judgment is forbidden. In fact if one would first do this then that person would qualify to perform such tasks. And what is that?

Can you read? DO NOT JUDGE. ANYONE that judge's another man on ANY MATTER is a hypocrite and improperly judging. Christ's words were pretty easy even for a first grader. You know, a child.

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

Rom 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.

Rom 2:3,4
So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them (JW's) and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.

James 4:11-12
Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you-who are you to judge your neighbor?

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.

Matt 7:1,2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL

Rom 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL

Rom 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

The truth is SIMPLE. DO NOT JUDGE ANOTHER MAN AT ALL

Rom 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

James 2:12,13
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Matt 12:36-37
36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Ps 94:15
15 Judgment will again be founded on righteousness...

Go ahead, judge your fellow man.

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

No, Paul is telling them that their judgment of him was of no concern to him.

I beleive it covers ALL MEN not just Paul and the Corinthians. You wanna be a judge in regards to any man, be my guest. I'll watch and see how you are judged later on.

His justification came from Christ and not from them.

Which will be true OF EVERY SINGLE MAN. You justify yourself when you judge another man.

You see these Corinthians judging him were the sinners and Pauls letter was written for the explicit purpose of correcting them.

ALL MEN are sinners, even Paul. So what does one sinner have to do with judging another man's sins? That is out of line and Paul was bringing THAT to their attention.

It is not that we cannot judge as Ozzie did.

It surely is. PUBLICLY condemning another man's sins puts one in for the same adverse judgment by Christ. To make a PERSONAL judgment is all well and good, as that is how one adjusts ONESELF. But that would be kept PERSONAL.

One who publicly condemns will receive public condemnation.

:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of mans judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Paul had no trust in their judgment of him and did not even judge himself. Paul had total confidence in the Lords judgment of him and his justification as a result. But then Paul had communication with the Lord and was chosen specifically by Jesus for this purpose. So lets not get this confused with the judgment and bloodguilt explained by Ozzie.

I disagree. It's not that Paul had NO TRUST in their judgment, it's that JUDGMENT ITSELF of ANY man including him was wrong, and THAT is what he was counseling them on. Christ will judge. That's it plain and simple.

:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

This does not mean that we cannot judge others for we can just as Ozzie did and I have done many times on this and other boards. But it does mean that such judgment does not determine their salvation or justification since only Christ can do that. After all his letter was written to get them to repent. Notice this purpose for them.

Oh, surely you CAN judge others. That doesn't make it RIGHTEOUS and you will pay somehow for that judgment. I say if judgment is what you want to do and be, then it is exactly what will come back to thee. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM in this simple phrase which can be pulled from the context without changing it's very simple truth: "Therefore judge NOTHING before the time..." In relation to what?? LIGHT AND DARK and what's in a MAN'S HEART.

:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Pauls appointment of Apollos was for this very purpose. He was putting a stop to the ones among them that were puffed up one against another violating scripture in the process. Apollos and others commissioned by Paul would deal with such ones with the authority of one of the twelve and outrank them in effect stopping the influence they had over others.

Paul empasizes what I have said in regarding to judging any man. The one who judges is PUFFED UP ABOVE another man. Are you truly ABOVE a blind JW? What if God in his mercy gives life to a blind JW who was lead astray and yet you judged that one as NOT innocent or worthy of life for his blindness. Where will you stand before your God?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

You have surely ignored the context. Paul is speaking of PETTY disagreements of this life that the congregation was bringing to secular courts, not another man's righteousness. If they could not know what to do in this petty secular things, how are they to be given the divine task of being dawned as a judge in the future? They wouldn't. Simple.

God will judge who will live or die. If God decides to save the Pope, who are you to argue?

Edited by - pomegranate on 13 September 2002 12:29:28

36

The look in the eyes

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of dubdom and comments have been made that exjws can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the r&f.

a view is held that the r&f are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the borg.

the argument goes that individuals, whether on the gb or publishers in a local congregation, are all victims of some organisational spirit.

pomegranate

So I cannot share the view that the individual Witnesses are innocent as doves.

Just because you are out, that doesn't make YOU innocent now does it? Is the R&F's sin a rafter or a splinter?
Your conscience may be clear, but you are not innocent, nor am I.

Even Paul said this:

1 Cor 4:4,5
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

I believe Paul is telling me this: Don't judge them as you used to judge others when you were one of them.

PS. No one is innocent.

edited for PS

Edited by - pomegranate on 13 September 2002 7:35:7

45

Hubby has Cancer.........

by Golden Girl in

jw
friends

and my heart is breaking!..we just had it confirmed today.

he has 9 months to live so they say.

among all the heartbreak and pain he is crying and begging me to go to the kingdom hall with him.

pomegranate

That's so sad...I'm so sorry snoozy. I wish I knew what to say...