The look in the eyes

by ozziepost 36 Replies latest jw friends

ozziepost

Last week we enjoyed a thread where many discussed the pros and cons of Dubdom and comments have been made that exJWs can be overtaken with negativity, and that this board displays far too much malice towards the R&F.
A view is held that the R&F are really nice people and they are innocent of sins committed by the Borg. The argument goes that individuals, whether on the GB or publishers in a local congregation, are ALL victims of some organisational spirit.
This seems to me to be a variation on the "Nuremberg defence". Are the R&F guilty of sharing in the sins of the Borg?
IMO they are. Let me explain a little.
It seems to me that the individual Dub can appear as very sweet and loving when things are going right. But what happens when difficulties arise? How do they deal with those in their midst who have transgressed? Are they still as loving then? Well, we know the answer.
Some things I've personally witnessed in recent times:
A Bethel elder chairing a JC meeting (at Bethel) telling the "offender": "If it was up to us, we'd stone you!"
Another Bethel-appointed elder telling a couple who were going to be DA: "And don't forget, we've got your children!"
And what of the individual publishers?
Next time you're shunned, look in their eyes. Their eyes can tell a lot. You can certainly see an expression of sheer hate, can't you?
So I cannot share the view that the individual Witnesses are innocent as doves. Far from it. I do agree that they're victims, but even victims can display a hateful attitude. In Jesus' parable of the Unmerciful Servant the servant was forgiven a sum of 10,000 talents owing to the king, whereupon he took action against someone who owed him just 100 denarii, and had him thrown into prison. The unmerciful servant was himself a victim but his actions showed he was not deserving of mercy.
This is not to defend the extreme cases of bile and ridicule sometimes found in posts, but it needs to be seen in the context of what the Borg is and those who defend it.
Cheers, Ozzie
Edited by - ozziepost on 13 September 2002 3:3:8
A Paduan

Take heed - Be careful - HOW you hear, for to those who think evil of others, more will be given. And for those who only have a little of that, even what they have will be taken away.
God be praised.
Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
paduan
Edited by - a paduan on 13 September 2002 5:45:5
bay64me

You refer to "some things you have witnessed in recent times". These are individuals of which you speak!
I prefer not to use blanket statements, tarring all with one brush.
I shared a congregation with some absolute detestable hypocrites. Some were very rude and hurtful. However I do know some that are extremely kind, patient and very loving and serve their god with absolute integrity and sincerity.
It is imposible to put them all in a box and categorize them.
TTBoy

Sure there are good people. Ozzie was pointing out how their love turns to hate if you become in any way non-rank and file or try to show them they are wrong. These "kind" people do an about face and show just as much malice as they did love.
God forbid you get a label such as DF or DA, watch the daggers come flying out of their eyes than.
Edited by - TTBoy on 13 September 2002 7:25:12
pomegranate

So I cannot share the view that the individual Witnesses are innocent as doves.
Just because you are out, that doesn't make YOU innocent now does it? Is the R&F's sin a rafter or a splinter?
Your conscience may be clear, but you are not innocent, nor am I.

Even Paul said this:
1 Cor 4:4,5
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

I believe Paul is telling me this: Don't judge them as you used to judge others when you were one of them.
PS. No one is innocent.
edited for PS
Edited by - pomegranate on 13 September 2002 7:35:7
Matty

"If it was up to us, we'd stone you!"

That sounds remarkably like the sort of thing my dad says when he is in one of his "righteous indignation" "Daily Mail Reader" moods. It's true that many are like this, but this pious arrogant attitude I frequently saw in my father always left me very cold, even when I was a loyal and stalwart dub.
When I was a child my dad used to point out what treatment naughty kids got in the nation of Israel, and so six-of-the-best seemed quite lenient to me!
JosephMalik

So I cannot share the view that the individual Witnesses are innocent as doves.
Just because you are out, that doesn't make YOU innocent now does it? Is the R&F's sin a rafter or a splinter?
Your conscience may be clear, but you are not innocent, nor am I.

Even Paul said this:
1 Cor 4:4,5
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
I believe Paul is telling me this: Don't judge them as you used to judge others when you were one of them.
Pomegranate,
No, Paul is telling them that their judgment of him was of no concern to him. His justification came from Christ and not from them. You see these Corinthians judging him were the sinners and Pauls letter was written for the explicit purpose of correcting them. It is not that we cannot judge as Ozzie did. That is another matter entirely in a completely different context. And he has scriptural support for the bloodguilt to which he pointed. But notice more of the context of the verse you used.
:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of mans judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Paul had no trust in their judgment of him and did not even judge himself. Paul had total confidence in the Lords judgment of him and his justification as a result. But then Paul had communication with the Lord and was chosen specifically by Jesus for this purpose. So lets not get this confused with the judgment and bloodguilt explained by Ozzie.
:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
This does not mean that we cannot judge others for we can just as Ozzie did and I have done many times on this and other boards. But it does mean that such judgment does not determine their salvation or justification since only Christ can do that. After all his letter was written to get them to repent. Notice this purpose for them.
:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Pauls appointment of Apollos was for this very purpose. He was putting a stop to the ones among them that were puffed up one against another violating scripture in the process. Apollos and others commissioned by Paul would deal with such ones with the authority of one of the twelve and outrank them in effect stopping the influence they had over others.
But when it comes to what Ozzie was saying about the conduct and attitudes of good JWs (spoken by one with personal experience) then we have this:
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
And Pauls letter was doing this very thing stopping such men just as his appointments of Timothy, Barnabas and Apollos would do. Just as exposure of the Watchtower and its followers on such boards has similar effect. Such decisions and exposure may not determine ones salvation but they can identify wrongdoers even if they do not recognize such sin themselves. And the proper course of action would simply be to not pay attention to such wrongdoers or be influenced by them and in the Watchtowers case this applies to all of them regardless if they are nice people or deliberate sinners. So get out because what Ozzie was saying is true.
Joseph
ozziepost

Thank you for those who've shared their comments. I DO appreciate it.
May I repeat this comment I made and invite comments:
This seems to me to be a variation on the "Nuremberg defence". Are the R&F guilty of sharing in the sins of the Borg?
Cheers, Ozzie
Larry

Good post.
Sounds like the same principle the BORG applies to Christendom is applicable to the R&F in association to the BORG - Guilty by association. Or applicable to our judicail system - Acting in concert.
Granted, many Dubs don't realize the extent of their evilness, but it still doesn't excuse their evil acts and thoughts against non believers. I would still be willing to overlook all of that, but their actions (consciously or unconsciously) cost people their lives, families, finances, sanity, dignity, and respect.
Peace - LL
pomegranate

No, Paul is telling them that their judgment of him was of no concern to him.
I beleive it covers ALL MEN not just Paul and the Corinthians. You wanna be a judge in regards to any man, be my guest. I'll watch and see how you are judged later on.
His justification came from Christ and not from them.
Which will be true OF EVERY SINGLE MAN. You justify yourself when you judge another man.
You see these Corinthians judging him were the sinners and Pauls letter was written for the explicit purpose of correcting them.
ALL MEN are sinners, even Paul. So what does one sinner have to do with judging another man's sins? That is out of line and Paul was bringing THAT to their attention.
It is not that we cannot judge as Ozzie did.
It surely is. PUBLICLY condemning another man's sins puts one in for the same adverse judgment by Christ. To make a PERSONAL judgment is all well and good, as that is how one adjusts ONESELF. But that would be kept PERSONAL.
One who publicly condemns will receive public condemnation.
:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of mans judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Paul had no trust in their judgment of him and did not even judge himself. Paul had total confidence in the Lords judgment of him and his justification as a result. But then Paul had communication with the Lord and was chosen specifically by Jesus for this purpose. So lets not get this confused with the judgment and bloodguilt explained by Ozzie.
I disagree. It's not that Paul had NO TRUST in their judgment, it's that JUDGMENT ITSELF of ANY man including him was wrong, and THAT is what he was counseling them on. Christ will judge. That's it plain and simple.
:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
This does not mean that we cannot judge others for we can just as Ozzie did and I have done many times on this and other boards. But it does mean that such judgment does not determine their salvation or justification since only Christ can do that. After all his letter was written to get them to repent. Notice this purpose for them.
Oh, surely you CAN judge others. That doesn't make it RIGHTEOUS and you will pay somehow for that judgment. I say if judgment is what you want to do and be, then it is exactly what will come back to thee. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM in this simple phrase which can be pulled from the context without changing it's very simple truth: "Therefore judge NOTHING before the time..." In relation to what?? LIGHT AND DARK and what's in a MAN'S HEART.
:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Pauls appointment of Apollos was for this very purpose. He was putting a stop to the ones among them that were puffed up one against another violating scripture in the process. Apollos and others commissioned by Paul would deal with such ones with the authority of one of the twelve and outrank them in effect stopping the influence they had over others.
Paul empasizes what I have said in regarding to judging any man. The one who judges is PUFFED UP ABOVE another man. Are you truly ABOVE a blind JW? What if God in his mercy gives life to a blind JW who was lead astray and yet you judged that one as NOT innocent or worthy of life for his blindness. Where will you stand before your God?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
You have surely ignored the context. Paul is speaking of PETTY disagreements of this life that the congregation was bringing to secular courts, not another man's righteousness. If they could not know what to do in this petty secular things, how are they to be given the divine task of being dawned as a judge in the future? They wouldn't. Simple.
God will judge who will live or die. If God decides to save the Pope, who are you to argue?
Edited by - pomegranate on 13 September 2002 12:29:28

The look in the eyes

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