Posts by pomegranate

116

Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky in

it was the point i decided to become agnostic.

i found my final stumbling block in my search for god.

i asked (myself as well as others): why would god create carnivorous animals before sin?

pomegranate

I must say, and please please don't take offense to this because as strange as it may seem, I mean this as a compliment, but your last few words about the smartest thing I've heard you say these last fews days. If I believed in the Bible, I might just believe what you said. I mean, it explains WHY God created us and why he didn't just kill Satan in the beginning. Ya know, you could probably start a reliigon with this idea. I've never heard anything quite like it. Unfortunately, a person would already have to believe in the Bible already for it to have an affect. . .

Thanks for the double sided compliment. I only read the Good side.

I believe we are spirit beings put in "tents"...temporary vessels for GOOD reason even though our bodies are BORN bad.

I have NO interest in starting a religion...but I sincerely believe my beliefs are LOGICAL, which is what my God given brain cried out for. Maybe I got what I was crying for...

Let me show you something else...Romans was a book that discussed Law alot. Both the Mosaic Law and law in general...I want you to read a few passages with the understanding of Law the way I have now presented it to you.

Rom 4:13-15
13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

The emboldened is a very important truth.

Before Satan rebelled, there was NO LAW IN HEAVEN, because no one had gone against God before. It was unheard of by creation, and most of all, God could not even comprehend it coming to be. So, if the was no defined law in heaven regarding even simple disobedience, then there was no defined transgression, because the transgression that Satan began and created was not defined as BAD. So, Satan could continue on his evil quest, and LEGALLY, since God is now Just, God COULD NOT act immediately. So, Satan would have thought he had God over a barrel. No one out thinks God.

Reason on this, if there was NEVER EVER a murder, would there be a Law against it? No. Because murder does not exist. If Murder does NOT exist, then there would NOT be a law against it. Law isn't made until AFTER the crime is committed. Now, if you go back to Genesis, what does God give Adam and Eve here:

Gen 2:15-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Basically, "OBEY ME OR DIE."

You are looking at the very FIRST LAW that God ever gave in creation. Now, if God gave Adam and Eve a LAW against DISOBEDIENCE, then that means disobedience was ALREADY HAPPENING somewhere. God would NOT make a LAW against something that did not exist. If there was a Law against disobedience, then disobedience existed BEFORE Adam and Eve disobeyed God's first Law. Since THEY disobeyed the first Law with an attached punishment, THEY suffered the consequences of death.

If you go back to that scripture in Romans again, there is another tell tale phrase: because law brings wrath.

Law brings wrath. The law in Genesis surely brought wrath, which is EXACTLY why God made it, so He could excerise his wrath against the BAD that was corrupting and defiling creation. That was going to STOP with Adam and Eve. Satan wasn't going to stop God from creating newe life though. It's just that the new life that came to be through Adam and Eve came out of the womb ALREADY CORRUPTED. Satan can't corrupt that which is already spoiled. God was BOXING in the serpant. Stop the corruption in heaven, stop the new corruption with ALL of the new life that was to come to be. Satan could no longer corrupt, because God seperated the heavens, and he created man to come out bad from birth. Satan was stopped form corrupting anew.

God knew Adam and Eve were going down by Satan...He KNEW IT, before they went down. But, God can undo all the bad that has come directly from the Great Cause and Adversary Satan the Devil. In time it will come to be. My guts are in motion...

There is more...each piece that I have I believe is a logical puzzle...piece by piece...first the frame, then fill out the middle.

15

Conveniently unused scripture

by Pleasuredome in

now that ive stopped going to meetings, ive had to become the faithful and discreet slave for myself, so to speak, and read the bible often and meditate on what it says.

just last night, i read this scripture that dumbfounded me: -.

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom.

pomegranate

Then take out "Jehovah" and put Lord there as the real manuscripts do, because "Jehovah" isn't in the Greek manuscripts at all.

But the WTBTS felt authorized to just put it in on their own.

116

Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky in

it was the point i decided to become agnostic.

i found my final stumbling block in my search for god.

i asked (myself as well as others): why would god create carnivorous animals before sin?

pomegranate

Excellent questions. Consider what I have to say...

So are you saying that Satan was already bad when God got around to creating serpents?

That's what I believe. Heaven was already in full tilt rebellion before Genesis 1:1.

What scripture says that? I thought that Satan saw Adam & Eve, and wanted the worship for himself and that's when he went bad. . .

I see the timing for when rebellion occurred by the information gained from a number of passages.

Before Satan went after Adam and Eve, he first wanted to be god. His evil deasirre is this: Assume godship, screw up heaven and make it divided, then screw up everything else God creates. If God says something is GOOD, surely Satan says everything God does is Evil. Good and Evil was at issue BEFORE Adam and Eve existed.

Remember the trees? Why would God depict a tree of Good and Evil if there was no such thing as evil yet? Why would God define something that never was, or never existed, or was never being practiced? I see it that if God has defined a tree as Good and Evil, then evil was existing at the time the tree was defined, which was before Adam and Eve were created. There are more angles to this too, if you want to hear them.

But, if Satan was bad before God even created humans, why didn't he just kill him then and not allow him to corrupt us?

Because there was no LAW for what Satan was doing. Defying God was never done before Satan did it, what Satan had created by defiance was NEW TO EVEN GOD, as such as thing never came into God's mind. Defying God was bad, but there was no Law against it.

God is just, and if justice is to be true, then if there is no Law, then there is no transgression so JUSTIFIABLY there can be no punishment. So, God being just, he could not do anything immediately to Satan, so, He begins to create the means by which to have him eliminated JUSTIFIABLY. We then have Genesis 1:1, the beginning of the plan to have Satan eliminated JUSTIFIABLY.

Have you ever been in a machine shop? When guys in that field run into a problem, they make something to fix the problem. A TOOL.

In heaven, there was NEVER any Law because no one ever defied God before. Now that there was defiance by disobedience, that becomes the very first law with a punishment that was placed on the next life form, mankind. The first law placed on Adam and Eve was a Law for simple obedience. To cut it to the bare bones, God said, "Obey me or die." God never said anything like that to anybody before...LAW WAS NEW.

Law was to be built on earth in another domain, then brought back into heaven...and applied fully.

It's like when you have a child, you keep him as safe as possible. I'm sure that most parents if possible, would never let a negative influence near there child. And since God is all powerful he could've done this, so why didn't he protect us?

He didn't stop him because that was not his plan. Surely, God saw Satan in Eden...God didn't do anything because that was not what God wanted to do. I see it this way: Satan just thumbed his nose at God and said, "Oh...so you call this a GOOD creation do you? Watch me screw it up and make it BAD, they will listen to ME not you, which means MY WAY is better than YOUR way. I AM GOD TOO." Thumbs nose at God and lobs spiritual vulgarities in His direction...

I mean if Satan was obviously bad enough to dedicate an animal to be in his likeness before we were even born. .

Satan was dictating anything...God's creation "days" were a slap in Satan's face every step of the way...the physical snake was a spiritual rebuke to the Satan...Satan couldn't care less.

Satan is like a bull being dragged by the nose ring to the slaughter...ever since Genesis 1:1 forward.

Sorry this was so long...tired...need sleep.

116

Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky in

it was the point i decided to become agnostic.

i found my final stumbling block in my search for god.

i asked (myself as well as others): why would god create carnivorous animals before sin?

pomegranate

Pom: Interesting perspective. Do you believe that God purposely introduced killing into the animal world?

Yes I do. For instance: Snakes were INTENTIONALLY made to sneak up CRAFTILY on their prey, stick their fangs into the little critters, crippling their nervous systems and then swallowing their food whole...That's exactly the way God made it. In image and likeness of guess who?

I see the madness in heaven played out before my eyes everyday...by watching what has been made.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What are you basing this on? And please no sarcasm, it's an honest question.

I am sorry if some of our interchanges came off as me being sarcastic. It was never intended. I know I am not one for being the most eloquent in the area of tact. It is a fault of mine...

To your question;

I am basing it on the Bible and what I see around me NOW. If God created everything in the beginning within a certain alloted time, then rested totally from ALL creating, that means everything the way we see it now was pretty much the way He created it then. Of course, excepting the numerous extinctions throughout time that are obvious by the fossil record.

Cuz if God planned to have good and evil in our world, were we ever supposed to be happy?

My opinion is...TRUE and complete happiness would never be FULLY realized until the serpent is nailed DEAD. But, we surely can taste the happiness to be through certain outworkings of Him. Like bearing children and stuff.

105

Please participate in my survey

by Zechariah in

jw
friends

i have received inquiries about how i was trained by spirit as a psychologist.

i was led to many sources of enlightenment.

books routinely was i led to that it was important i read.

pomegranate

It was interesting!

35

Kangaroos and the Fossil Record

by Gedanken in

creationists like to attack evolution by attacking the "fossil record" as being incomplete; i.e., if something existed, for example, transitional states, then we should see evidence of them in the fossil record.

so, their argument is that if something existed, then we should see it in the fossil record.. let's take a look at the case of kangaroos.

we must assume, if we accept the notion of a global flood, that noah collected two kangaroos for his menagerie in the ark.

pomegranate

After publishing his 1978 book, Evolution, *Dr. Colin Patterson of the British Museum of Natural History was asked why he did not include a single photograph of a transitional fossil. In reply, Dr. Patterson said this:

"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise [portray] such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it.
"[Steven] Gould [of Harvard] and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a paleontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record. You say that I should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the linethere is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test."*Dr. Colin Patterson, letter dated April 10, 1979 to Luther Sunderland, quoted in L.D. Sunderland, Darwins Enigma, p. 89.

35

Kangaroos and the Fossil Record

by Gedanken in

creationists like to attack evolution by attacking the "fossil record" as being incomplete; i.e., if something existed, for example, transitional states, then we should see evidence of them in the fossil record.

so, their argument is that if something existed, then we should see it in the fossil record.. let's take a look at the case of kangaroos.

we must assume, if we accept the notion of a global flood, that noah collected two kangaroos for his menagerie in the ark.

pomegranate

In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationalist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed t special creation. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS UNPROVED.

Then if the fossil record is of no use to support the evolution theory for any REAL evolutionist (gradualist or punctuationalist), because it is so "creation" like, what is there to support evolution? Nothing except an individuals preconceived beliefs and accepted hypothesis.

116

Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky in

it was the point i decided to become agnostic.

i found my final stumbling block in my search for god.

i asked (myself as well as others): why would god create carnivorous animals before sin?

pomegranate

So Satan made the animals kill each other and made them with teeth and digestive tracts to eat meat!

That isn't what I said gum. I said Satan was the cause for God to create physical animals to be wild, in image and likeness of the wild spirits in heaven. Try reading with a bit more comprehension next time instead of distorting what I post. Thank you.

Please note: God said MAN could eat flesh after the flood. The wild animals were already doing it.

86

Carbon Dating

by Wolfgirl in

sorry, i don't have time to search the site right now.

this bloody french isp is rubbish, and i keep getting dropped when i try anything that takes more than 10 seconds.

has the society ever come up with any intelligent reasoning to counter the ages that carbon dating/science has given to various artifacts, i.e.

pomegranate

Limp proof by what I see from your last post. But hey, if that's all the proof you need, all the power to you.

116

Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky in

it was the point i decided to become agnostic.

i found my final stumbling block in my search for god.

i asked (myself as well as others): why would god create carnivorous animals before sin?

pomegranate

I believe animals eating each other was "good" from God's standpoint (it WAS how he created WILD animals), as it all had a purpose. It would seem bad from our view point because we'd obviously be saying, "what the heck is going on?"

What was wrong, was Satan...Satan was the cause, what God created was the affect of what Satan had done.

I believe everything God created was good, as a matter of fact VERY GOOD, from His standpoint, because each and everything He created and did had a purpose for the end result which was the eventual elimination of the problem.

I believe physical creation was created for the purpose of informing right hearted individuals what was transpiring spiritually, while the required time passed by till the eventual elimination of the thorn in God's side..

Where do I stand in line to worship this guy?

Pissing again?