THE RISE AND FALL OF AN IMMENSE IMAGE & THE TEN TOE DILEMMA
This chapter deals with the dream image of the second chapter of
Daniel. Readers of the Watchtower are familiar with the flip-flop
phenomenon. A certain idea is given as "truth". Then the opposite
is given as "truth". Finally, that idea is repudiated and there is
a return to an earlier interpretation. In order to lay the
groundwork for the obvious errors of interpretation the Watchtower
makes on this part of Daniel we need to examine a classic flip-
flop. By the way it should read flip-FLOP with the emphasis on the
FLOP.
1958 EXPLANATION OF THE IMAGE'S FEET: Your Will Be Done On Earth
Page 24 "But WHAT OF THE TEN TOES in which the symbolic image
terminated? This feature showed that at the time of the end of this
symbolic image the remnant of the Roman or sixth world power would
vie with the Anglo-American or seventh world power and that there
would be other independent political governments associated with
those competing powers. The number TEN BEING A BIBLICAL NUMBER
SYMBOLIZING EARTHLY COMPLETENESS, THE TEN TOES PICTURE ALL SUCH
COEXISTING POWERS AND GOVERNMENTS.
1978 EXPLANATION OF THE IMAGE'S FEET: Watchtower 6/15/78 page 13
in the article "Human Governments Crushed by God's Kingdom" it says
"There does not appear to be any prophetic significance to the
image's having ten toes. This is a natural human feature, just as
the image has two arms, two legs, and so forth."
1999 EXPLANATION OF THE IMAGE'S FEET: Pay Attention to Daniel's
Prophecy page 59 paragraph 27 The (b) question for that paragraph
is "What is pictured by the ten toes of the image?" The answer?
"The ten toes of the image represent all such coexisting powers and
governments, for in the Bible the number ten at times signifies
earthly completeness"
Why are they hung up with the 10 toes? If you read the 2nd chapter
of Daniel the word "ten" doesn't even appear. If the number 10
were really significant don't you think it would have been
mentioned? In fact "number" is also lacking in reference to arms
and legs. This is NOT an interpretation that is driven by Holy
Spirit. It is a hodge-podge of mystical numerological ideas that
lead Jehovah's Witnesses astray. What a shame that they go through
all the trouble of presenting the same nonsense dressed up with
nice pictures.
The idea that the feet suddenly represent "kingdoms" (special
emphasis is placed on plurality) is total fabrication. The head
represented one kingdom -Babylon. Next Dan. 2:39 says "after you
there will rise another kingdom (singular) ... and another kingdom
(singular) a third one of copper.. Dan 2:40 says "And as for the
fourth kingdom (again singular). So then is there a change in this
pattern when the fifth part of this image is described? Dan 2:41
says the "kingdom (singular) will prove to be divided....the
kingdom (singular) will partly prove to be strong..." Finally,
kings (plural) are mentioned in Daniel 2:44 when it speaks of the
whole image being knocked down and crushed. "It will crush and put
an end to all these kingdoms (plural). Some may be tempted to say
that this is referring to the 10 kingdom/toes, however verse 45
repeats the symbolic metals of the image indicating that the
plurality is referring to the image as a whole.
Clearly the clay/iron does not represent "many" kingdoms and
certainly not "all" the kingdoms of the earth. There is nothing to
indicate that the feet and toes are anything but a singular kingdom
that has as one of its characteristics that it is loosely held
together. Therefore the statement by the Watchtower that "the ten
toes of the image represent all such coexisting powers and
governments" based on the idea that "in the Bible the number ten at
times signifies earthly completeness" is absolutely false.
Although the number 10 may at "TIMES" represent "EARTHLY
COMPLETENESS" they fail to show how the feet of the image
necessarily represents one of those "times".
But, it is still worthwhile to ponder over what "kingdom" the feet
might represent. Clearly the feet and toes represent the final
world power on earth. In Daniel Chapter 11 the final power on
earth is the King Of the North. The King of the South is not
mentioned again after the King of the North storms against the King
of the South in reaction to being pushed. In Revelation the final
head of the Chapter 13 beast is wounded, revives, and destroys
Babylon the Great. This revived wild beast is hurled alive into
the lake of fire.
We can sum up the characteristics of the final power on earth as
follows.
1. It will prove to be partly strong like iron and partly weak like
moist clay. It will not prove to be sticking together this one to
that one because they will lack homogeneity due to being mixed with
the offspring of mankind.
2. It will achieve its power over the whole earth after it recovers
from what appears as a death-blow. After it revives people will
wonder admiringly at its ability to still do battle.
3. It is significantly a NORTHERN kingdom.
Does this not describe Russia? Is it just a coincidence that
Russia the largest country in the world, with three-quarters of
its land mass north of the 50th parallel should also be described
with the following words:
"Within one week's time, in the summer of 1991, the 74-year-old
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics became a finished part of
history." _ Comptons On-Line Encyclopedia
What about the clay & iron feature of the final empire? Does that
fit USSR/RUSSIA?
We can look again to the Compton's On-Line Encyclopedia for a
description of Russia's so-called "Nationalities Problem".
"In an age of nationalism every nationality aspires to independent
statehood. The non-Russian peoples were appeased with a hierarchy
of administrative units. Fifteen were granted a soviet socialist
republic status that, according to the constitution, most resembled
that of a sovereign nation-state. Twenty others possessed the
status of an autonomous soviet socialist republic, which provided
some cultural autonomy. Still others were recognized as autonomous
oblasts or autonomous okrugs, designations that meant little beyond
an official acknowledgement of ethnic identity... The government
became less and less ethnically representative as a result of the
slow demographic growth of the ethnic Russians and the rapid growth
of the other ethnic groups, especially the Muslim groups in Central
Asia and elsewhere."
Once you sweep away Watchtower misunderstandings you end up with an
explanation that is eerily coherent.
proplog2
JoinedPosts by proplog2
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Book Study Wk 8 8/22: pg57-59 A FRAGILE AMALGAM
by ithinkisee ina fragile amalgam
25 daniel next told nebuchadnezzar: whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay.
and as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile.
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proplog2
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Could You Stay Friends With Someone Who Visited Prostitutes?
by Englishman ina while back, an aquaintance of mine told me that he liked to visit prostitutes.
although we weren't that close, i'd worked on and off with him over the years.
i knew his wife too and would often see her around town.. he'd told me that when he had something to celebrate, like his birthday or maybe a commercial win, he and a pal of his would do the pubs and clubs first and then go kerb crawling until they found a pair of street girls who would play the swopsy's scene.
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proplog2
Are you looking down on prostitutes or the people that pay for their services?
There are alpha males who could have an affair with just about anyone they want & anytime they want. They get more than their share of sexual experiences just because nature gave them that special look, athletic physique, and charming smile. Why should they be the only ones to have the experience of the attention of a beautiful woman. If everyone felt as you do then the Moslems have it right. Cover every woman in a Berka so no-one will ever be reminded about what they're missing.
There's an old song Maxine Sullivan used to sing: One Hundred Years From Today
Whose business is it? What difference does it make One Hundred Years From Today.
So what if someone buys into a momentary fantasy. He's not going to be any deader than you when he dies.
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Do conflicts/arguments strengthen friendships/relationships ?
by JH ini think that conflicts do strengthen friendships or relationships.
it sets boundary lines and defines what's acceptable from what's not acceptable.
naturally it will strengthen the friendship or relationship as long as both respect the boundary line of the other one.. or, maybe conflicts mean that things aren't going right and the relationship/friendship isn't going good, and that the tolerance level has become very low, and arguments errupt for little nothings.... .
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proplog2
Communication is a SKILL. I've never met anyone who was good at communications without working at it.
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Why the Watchtower Will Never Change on Blood -(or much else)
by metatron inyou're the head of a major religion.. your religion is deeply embroiled in scandals invoving officers of the church and sex with children.. what will you do?.
what religion am i describing?
the watchtower?
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proplog2
Metatron:
You failed to put "brave" in quotes when referring to Moscow prosecutors. I hope you really don't believe that their actions are brave in any sense.
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The Biotic Message Book (Evolution vs. Message Theory)
by hooberus inthe book "the biotic message" by walter remine is one that i would highly recommend for those with an in depth interest in the evolution issue: below is the list of the table of contents:.
http://www1.minn.net/~science/contents.htm
(also i know of a source where the book can be purchased new for a substantial discount.
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proplog2
So much for book reports
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Is The Governing Body Of JW's Deliberately Deceiving People?
by Honesty in.
i find it very hard for me to believe that the governing body is unaware that many of the wtbts teachings and doctrines are not only deceiving people but are also spiritually, mentally and physically harming them as well.
what are your thoughts and comments?
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proplog2
Moshe:
As the Communist say Relgion is the opium of the people - thank God.
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The Biotic Message Book (Evolution vs. Message Theory)
by hooberus inthe book "the biotic message" by walter remine is one that i would highly recommend for those with an in depth interest in the evolution issue: below is the list of the table of contents:.
http://www1.minn.net/~science/contents.htm
(also i know of a source where the book can be purchased new for a substantial discount.
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proplog2
How I Created The Universe and Everything In It. By Jehovah (aka. Allah, Zeus, etc. etc.)
Why all the bs? Does God like playing zillion questions?
Does he know how to talk in at least one language since he allegedly gave humans their languages?
Why didn't he ever tell humans to boil their water?
Why didn't he warn us about the diseases mosquitoes carry?
Why didn't he tell us that females have eggs and that sperm does not contain little tiny humans?
The most important voice in this whole situation apparently ain't going to settle this.
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Is The Governing Body Of JW's Deliberately Deceiving People?
by Honesty in.
i find it very hard for me to believe that the governing body is unaware that many of the wtbts teachings and doctrines are not only deceiving people but are also spiritually, mentally and physically harming them as well.
what are your thoughts and comments?
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proplog2
I tend to be somewhat of a JW apologist at times... BUT
I believe they are deliberately deceptive. They may justify their deception (theocratic strategy) "for the greater good" but there is no more accurate word than deception.
Their handling of the internet is a good example. They claim to be interested in getting out information to as many people as possible. They compare themselves to the early Christians who used the codex (book) form of scripture instead of the cumbersome scrolls. They boast about the Photo Drama of Creation, Radio broadcasts, phonographs etc.
Read from the Proclaimers book (Official JW History as of 1993 )
In Chapter 25 Preaching Publicly and From House to House a brief history is given of the great initiative of JW's to use all means available to them to spread the word. This is what was said about the use of Radio
"Then, in the 1920's, another instrument became available to give wide publicity to the Kingdom message. Brother Rutherford felt strongly that the hand of the Lord was manifest in its development. What was it? Radio. Less than two years after the world's first commercial radio station began regular broadcasts (in 1920), J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, went on the air to broadcast Bible truth. Here was an instrument that could reach millions of people simultaneously. Within two more years, in 1924, the Society had its own radio station, WBBR, in operation in New York. By 1933, the peak year, 408 stations were being used to carry the message to six continents. In addition to live broadcasts, programs on scores of subjects were prerecorded. Intense local advertising by distribution of printed announcements was done so that people would know about the broadcasts and could benefit from them. These broadcasts broke down much prejudice and opened the eyes of honesthearted ones. Many people, out of fear of their neighbors and the clergy, held back from attending meetings sponsored by the Bible Students, but this did not stop them from listening to the radio in the privacy of their own home. The broadcasts did not replace the need for house-to-house witnessing; but they did carry Bible truth to places that were hard to reach, and they provided excellent openings for conversations when the Witnesses personally visited the homes."
The above quote was pre-internet - 1993 The World Wide Web is without doubt the greatest communication tool that has ever appeared on the face of this planet. Everything the above article says about Radio could be said substituting the word internet. "Then in the 1990's another instrument became available to give wide publicity to the Kindom message. Brother Rutheford (The Society) felt strongly that the hand of the Lord was manifest in its development.... " just keep replacing Radio with "the internet".
Now fast foward to 2005.
Our Kindom Ministry (USA) page 4 article "Reaching as Many People as Possible"
Paragraph 2 " USE OF TECHNOLOGY (Bold Heading)
Through the prophet Isaiah, Jehovah foretold: "You will actually suck the milk of nations" (Isa. 60:16) In the modern-day fulfillment of this prophecy, Jehovah's servants are making use of valuable resources from the nations to advance the preaching work. For example, in 1914, years before talking motion pictures became successful commercially, the Bible Students began showing the "Photo-Drama of Creation" This eight-hour-long motion picture and slide presentation, complete with color and sound, gave a powerful witness to millions."
Paragraph 3
"Today, God's people make use of high-speed printing presses and computerized tools to publish Bibles and Bible literature in hundreds of languages. Rapid means of transport move Bible literature to distant parts of the earth reaching people in 235 lands. Through his spirit, Jehovah has impelled his servants to put such technology to practical use, making Bible truth available to more people than ever before in history."
Is the DECEPTION only obvious to me? Why wasn't Radio even mentioned? Why no reference to the 1993 article in the Proclaimers book? Is it because the Radio is so similar to the Internet? Why did the Watchtower have a web page in 1995 and never listed it or actively promote it? Since about 2001 (kind of late in the internet chronology) the Watchtower has had a tiny web address in about an 8point font. Why is the web page so stingy? Sure it has a lot of information but - nothing compared to what they could print. They could easily make everything they have on their CD available to anyone.
Imagine if you allowed 6.5 million jw's to put up their own web pages. What if there were several thousand discussion groups on the internet where people could ask questions and get answers from JW's.
Instead they constantly scare their members away from the world community of information sharing.
They know that they would lose control of information. They are more interested in information control than in information sharing. Guess what? They are losing control inspite of themselves.
Every once in a while someone asks "Do you think the Society reads this forum?" Yes they absolutely read this forum and others like it. They see all the excellent arguments against their doctrines such as blood transfusions. They read the criticism of their prophetic interpretations. They have to read this stuff because people at the door ask them questions based on arguments hashed and rehashed in on-line discussions. They get thousands of letters about Blood Transfusions, Prophecy, organizational policies etc.
Here is where deception comes in. They know ALL the good arguments against their beliefs. AND...They never even attempt to deal with these arguments in their publications.
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It cannot be denied
by logansrun inimagine in your mind any "evil" person: rapist, murderer, theif, addict, terrorist...etc.
now, if you were born with that exact dna, had that same brain chemistry and went through the same enviornmental stimuli and life experiences as they did, you would do the exact same "evil" things.
we only think we are "free.
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proplog2
I just finished reading an excellent book on this subjec -- The Blank Slate author = Pinker
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Do you know who you are?
by LouBelle inbeing a chubbier woman most of my days - i've only known who i am in this body.
i've now taken steps to reduce my size (i'm taking this seriously - i've decided to slim down & now "own" my number).
i've always been a confident person, regardless of being chubby.
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proplog2
Who am I? is only one of the questions that leads to self knowledge.
It is important to ask:
What am I?
How am I?
Where am I?