When you catch sight of the disgusting thing...standing where it
ought not...then know that the desolating of her has drawn
near...Get out of her my people if you do not want to share with
her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her
plagues.
If you have a JW background you will notice that I have mixed four
scriptures here. Matt 24:15;Mark 13:14;Luke 21:20;Revelation 18:4
I mix these two prophecies because they both require EXTREME action
on the part of those who "discern" the identity of the foretold
signal. Jehovah's Witnesses have not yet come to a proper
understanding of these scriptures. Instead they have been side-
tracked by two false assumptions. They have believed that 1. Flight
is symbolic and 2. Babylon the Great is the world empire of false
religion.
First let's consider their problem with understanding the nature of
the "flight" and whether it is literal or merely symbolic.
FLIGHT - GEOGRAPHICAL OR SYMBOLIC
The May 1 1999 Watchtower came out with some "new light" on the
scripture at Matthew 24:15,16 Unfortunately this was a patchwork
change that created more questions than it answers.
First let's look at the text under discussion.
Matthew 24:15,16 "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting
thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the
prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment)
then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains."
For years the Watchtower has said that this scripture has
application in our day and that it is necessary for individuals to
flee from false religion to the true religion. In other words they
used to claim that this is not a literal flight but a symbolic
flight. Now they are saying in paragraph 19 on page 18 of
Watchtower May 1, 1999 that "Jesus' disciples certainly need no
warning about fleeing from one religion to another; they had
already become true Christians."
I guess this straightens out what they said previously in the
Watchtower of June 1st 1996 "This flight to safety is NOT a
geographic move, such as Jewish Christians made when abandoning
Jerusalem. It is a flight to the place of safety within Jehovah's
theocratic organization."
Basically the same thing was repeated in Aug 15 1996 "Will You Be
Saved When God Acts"
P. 20 "We can rest assured, though, that God's chosen ones and
their associates will not be in the danger zone, at risk of being
killed. Oh, they WILL NOT HAVE FLED TO ONE GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION.
First-Century Christians in Jerusalem could flee from that city to
the mountainous region, such as Pella across the Jordan. In the
future, however, God's faithful Witnesses will be located all over
the globe, so safety and protection will not be based on geographic
location."
Now that they have the correct understanding that the flight isn't
a symbolic change in religion do they now conclude that the flight,
in reaction to seeing the "disgusting thing standing in a holy
place", is going to be a geographical flight? Amidst the "new
light" is the same muddled thinking.
Here is the latest take on the type of flight meant: Paragraph 22
page 19 Watchtower May 1, 1999 "We cannot presently have full
details about the great tribulation, but we can LOGICALLY CONCLUDE
THAT FOR US THE FLIGHT JESUS SPOKE OF WILL **NOT** BE IN A
GEOGRAPHICAL SENSE."
Why do they keep insisting that the future flight will NOT be
geographical? Is there any other kind of flight than a change in
location? If you are in harms way and you flee so that you are no
longer in harms way aren't we talking about a physical-
geographical- movement away from the "dangerous place" to the "safe
place"? There are only three ways that you can conceive of flight.
(1.) You can flee symbolically which is to say you change your
mental space. (2.) You can flee spatially which means an actual
geographical flight. (3.) And you can conceptualize a temporal
flight. If the flight isn't mental or symbolic, and if it isn't
geographical that leaves temporal flight - flight in time. So are
they suggesting some sort of time warp?
They continue in that same Paragraph 22 "God's people are already
around the globe, virtually in every corner."
So they think this is the premise for them to "logically conclude
that for us the flight Jesus spoke of will NOT be in a geographical
sense."
The Watchtower argument can be summed up by the following
SINCE/THEREFORE format:
SINCE, "First century Christians weren't located "all over the
globe"
THEREFORE, "they could flee from that city to the mountainous
region." and
SINCE, "In the future, God's faithful Witnesses will be located all
over the globe" THEREFORE, "safety and protection will not be based
on geographic location."
The problem with the SINCE (premise) is that the only way for the
Christians in Jerusalem to survive was to physically get out of
Jerusalem. But what about the majority of early Christians. The
majority of early Christians weren't residents of Jerusalem. The
command to get out of Jerusalem was not a general command to ALL
Christians. Christians could be found in large numbers all over the
Roman Empire and beyond. In fact the Watchtower has stated many
times that the scripture at Matthew 24:14 had an early fulfillment
by the time Jerusalem was destroyed.
Likewise today true Christians might want to look for a parallel to
ancient Jerusalem from which they could literally flee. Not ALL
Christians will have to flee. Only those who dwell in some modern
day counterpart of Jerusalem will have to flee when they see their
geographical region seriously threatened by the yet to be observed
"disgusting thing".
BABYLON THE GREAT IS NOT THE WORLD EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION
If Babylon the Great is not World Religion what is it? It is the
wealthiest entity on the face of the earth. It is the United
States that lives in shameless luxury. It is the United States
that has committed "fornication" deals with ruling elites around
the world. It has deceived the whole world with its economic
system. It sits as a hegemon - "And the woman whom you saw means
the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."
Rev. 17:18. The United States has lived a protected life isolated
by two great "waters/oceans". It sits like ancient Babylon on a
moat-it is an island. "In her heart she keeps saying 'I sit a
queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning'. That is
why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and
famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because
Jehovah God, who judge her is strong." Rev. 18:7,8.
It should be easy to see why Jehovah's Witnesses would not come to
realize the true identity of Babylon the Great until the crucial
moment when flight would be necessary. The Bible clearly says that
God's people are to get out of Babylon the Great. Let's say they
understood that 50 years ago. Jehovah's witnesses would have felt
very uncomfortable hanging around here anticipating the time when
they would have to leave.
proplog2
JoinedPosts by proplog2
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7
When you see the disgusting thing that causes desolation...
by Mickey mouse in...standing in a holy place.. i am sure this must have been discussed before but i can't find it in a search.
so if the disgusting thing is the un i think i can think of a time when it has stood in a place jw's consider "holy".
i never bought that the "holy place" was christendom when it has supposedly been denounced by god already.
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proplog2
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139
Bethel layoffs in 2008 - 300+ and counting
by sir82 infrom the mouth of one of the special pioneers assigned tour congregation:.
at least 300 have been terminated from the us bethel branch in the first month of 2008, and she expects the number to increase.
paraphrasing other comments:.
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proplog2
I left this thread because I'm not of a temperament to engage in unending sessions of personal attacks. Some discussions just aren't productive. And I especially avoid prolonged discussions with someone who says he can barely contain his violent temper. I am a civilized human. I'm not impressed or frightened by chest beating. I have been known to change my mind when I am exposed to good argumentation where premises are laid out and backed by facts that make the conclusion unavoidable.
I have seen nothing like that on this thread.
But there is something even more insidious going on here. The complete acquiescence on the part of so many observers is unforgivable. That loud silence has made me realize that this really isn't a place I want to be.
So, celebrate. I am not just leaving this thread. After almost 7 years I am leaving this board.
A lot of my old posts might come in handy in early March of this year. You might want to download some of them while this board is still around. -
23
Why the molestation issue won't bring down JW's
by proplog2 in?molestation is not a problem unique to jws.
it happens all the time everywhere.
it is a human problem.
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proplog2
OUTLAW...
I advocate the common law principle of two witnesses. AND I believe circumstantial evidence (lab tests, DNA etc) also can be one of those two witnesses. I can also believe there was a time before such tests that child molestation would be a difficult crime to prove.
I know that children don't lie about such things but they can be prompted. In fact my mother-in-law made my wife (she was 12) testify against her father accusing him of molestation so she could get better divorce terms. My wife has an excellent relationship with her father and hates her mother for making her lie.
I think the Watchtower has made significant mistakes in this area. Hopefully, they will learn. And I have stated before how I felt about the last Kingdom News Tract that used the molestation issue to take a swipe at the Catholic Church.
NOW DON'T SHOOT!!!!! -
17
Scans of Watchtower books at Google books and Archive.org
by bereanbiblestudent inthe following editions of watchtower books can be found and downloaded at books.google.com and archive.org .
this is what i found, but sometimes its hard to find them because they are not well indexed.
hope you don't mind the edit - lee.
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proplog2
When I encounter an unformatted thread I click on edit and even though I can't edit the post it will appear with proper carriage returns etc.
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23
Why the molestation issue won't bring down JW's
by proplog2 in?molestation is not a problem unique to jws.
it happens all the time everywhere.
it is a human problem.
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proplog2
I bumped this thread up because of the number of posters who didn't just criticized the Watchtower but who also pointed out the need for parental responsibility. The Watchtower doesn't get off the hook but neither do parents who have the primary job of looking out for their children's safety.
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23
Why the molestation issue won't bring down JW's
by proplog2 in?molestation is not a problem unique to jws.
it happens all the time everywhere.
it is a human problem.
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proplog2
bump
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139
Bethel layoffs in 2008 - 300+ and counting
by sir82 infrom the mouth of one of the special pioneers assigned tour congregation:.
at least 300 have been terminated from the us bethel branch in the first month of 2008, and she expects the number to increase.
paraphrasing other comments:.
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proplog2
I am done with this thread.
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139
Bethel layoffs in 2008 - 300+ and counting
by sir82 infrom the mouth of one of the special pioneers assigned tour congregation:.
at least 300 have been terminated from the us bethel branch in the first month of 2008, and she expects the number to increase.
paraphrasing other comments:.
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proplog2
Nomoreguilt:
Where have I defended child molesting or child molesters? -
139
Bethel layoffs in 2008 - 300+ and counting
by sir82 infrom the mouth of one of the special pioneers assigned tour congregation:.
at least 300 have been terminated from the us bethel branch in the first month of 2008, and she expects the number to increase.
paraphrasing other comments:.
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proplog2
Breaking Away:
Who are these suffering people? What are the facts? It has been stated that there is some sort of program to look after these individuals. I would be glad to criticize the Watchtower if I had adequate facts. But these are cases of somebody who knows somebody else. No matter what policy or program there may be extenuating circumstances that make the program less effective, but what are the individual circumstances?
If someone has a mental breakdown because they had to leave Bethel and just can't seem to adjust to "civilian life" is that Bethel's fault? Humans are complex. ALL programs to help people will fail sometimes. I have had low points in my life like everyone else.
Is someone proposing to seek out these individuals who are suffering because of being laid off from Bethel and start a fund?
Is it callousness to refuse to let your feelings obscure careful scrutiny of the issues?
Let me clarify my definition of "organizations". Normally, you don't include criminal organizations when you are speaking of organizations. Although, there are some social scientists that see the need to "respect" gangs for the function they serve even though their activities are unacceptable. It is grossly unfair to compare JW's to NAZI's or crime families.
The fact that you even make a statement like that shows how distorted your thinking is. -
139
Bethel layoffs in 2008 - 300+ and counting
by sir82 infrom the mouth of one of the special pioneers assigned tour congregation:.
at least 300 have been terminated from the us bethel branch in the first month of 2008, and she expects the number to increase.
paraphrasing other comments:.
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proplog2
daniel-p:
I have made many comments about my problems with Watchtower teachings. I disagree with them on probably 90% of their teachings.
1. I believe in evolution - but I can see why JW's and other religions feel the need to discredit it.
2. I don't believe in their blood doctrine but I can see the slippery slope that got them there.
3. I don't like the idea of reporting and keeping records of everyone's field service - but I can understand that if they didn't people probably wouldn't spread the message at all.
4. I don't believe in their interpretation of 99% of prophecy - but I can see where maybe their misunderstanding is necessary.
5. I agree completely with their stance on war & politics - but I harbor resentment over their policy about alternative service that sent many to jail needlessly.
6. I don't believe in the need of the elders' approval before a person can get baptized. I don't believe you should have to wait until an assembly to get baptized. I believe any disciple male or female who has been baptized can baptize someone else.
7. I believe disfellowshipping for smoking is wrong.
8. I don't believe you need to confess sins to elders. - but, I believe confession to someone may be therapeutic. And some people need to confess anonymously as catholics do in a confession booth. A person who confesses should never be disfellowshiped.
9. I believe a person should have a trial before the whole congregation before they are disfellowshipped. That way each individual could make a personal decision about how they wanted to relate to the individual.
10. Even though the Watchtower now rejects date setting for the end.. I think it is a natural consequence of planning ones future.
11. I believe some parts of the Bible are inspired and other parts are not.
12. I disagree with their policy on education.
13. I feel there needs to be a system for doctrinal discussion and argument with peer review publications. I see nothing wrong with dissent short of schism.
14. I believe individual congregations should be allowed to sponsor missionaries.
15. I believe the book study should be a free and open discussion because it is a small group.
16. I believe assemblies should be broken up into modules and each individual could sign up for seminars dealing with problems they feel the need to work on.
I could go on & on.
The one thing I don't like is the unproductive slamming of the organization. Organizations are collectives of human beings and they should at least be respected. Criticize their teachings but it is of no value to call them names.
So, if this makes me a troll. Fine. There are GOOD TROLLS and there are EVIL TROLLS.