Posts by proplog2

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

Sinnis:

I first realized that the USA was Babylon the Great back in 1980. The first crack in the structure was that World Trade didn't seem to be dependent on Religion. But I had trouble figuring out what the Wild Beast was that eventually destroys Babylon The Great. I struggled with the Watchtower interpretation that the seventh head was the anglo american world power that was wounded in First World War. Of course the events that have occurred since the late 1980's has clarified some things.

The Soviet Union completely disappeared in December 1991. This was a real death of an empire unlike the difficulties the Anglo American power suffered in World War I. The Watchtower even concluded that there no longer was a King of the North. I knew that this was significant. I have been watching events unfold in Russia ever since. The United States has tried to ride the Russian beast by moving NATO right up to its front door. The Harvard economists that advised Yeltsin ruined an orderly transition from central control of the economy to a market economy. Everyone thought they could ignore Russia because it was on its way to being a nice Demo(k)ratic Kapitalist Lamb. Under Putin it is clear that "freedom" and "democracy" are not high priorities.

The stage is set for the rest of the fullfilment of Revelation

22

"Neutrality" is Nonsense

by metatron in

jw
friends

i have observed some people drifting away from the watchtower who will acknowledge that most witness beliefs are false.. however, they may still cling to "neutrality" as a means of assuring themselves that "it's still the truth".

the witness idea of neutrality is naive.

as entire nations now mobilize for wars, the idea that you are somehow 'not part of it'.

proplog2

Metatron:

No one has ever died for me. I will defend my own SELF. I will kill my enemy when he is looking me dead in the eye. Or my enemy will kill me.

Unfortunately governments make enemies and then expect others to fight their battles.

At the point where governments threaten to lock you up if you don't fight their enemies - I think its time to consider who your real enemy is.

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

This is the short argument against the Watchtower interpretation of Babylon the Great. (BTG)

1.) The Watchtower claims that Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion (WEFR). Since the Bible never specifically says that BTG is a religious entity this is an extraordinary claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence. (Similar to the Trinity situation. Since the word Trinity is not used in the Bible then the doctrine would have to be extraordinarily explicit.) Not only is Babylon The Great not referred to as a religious entity the 18th chapter of Revelation is lacking even ordinary religious identifiers ie. altars, priests, sacrifice, idols, incense etc.

2.) The Watchtower uses a process of elimination argument as a key to uncovering the mystery of BTG's identity. Since the Kings of the Earth committed fornication with Babylon the Great the claim is advanced that she can't be a political entity. And since the Ship Captains and Traveling Merchants are mourning her destruction she can't be big business. While it is clearly the case that she is NOT of the class represented by Traveling Merchants it is not self-evident that she can't be of the same class represented by the Kings of the Earth. She is not of the same set as those with whom she has intercourse but she can be of the same class. As an example consider Michael the Archangel. Michael is in the same class as Seraphs and Cherubs. However, Michael, as the only Archangel, is in a separate set of the class called "angels". So Babylon the Great can be a political entity the same as all those with whom she fornicates. The thing that the Kings of the Earth have in common is that they have all fornicated with the entity identified as BTG. She in turn is in a set by herself. She is the only one that has fornicated with all the kings of the earth and she is also the only one who has an empire over all the kings of the earth.

This point becomes clearer when we read of the fornication of Tyre, clearly a political entity. Isaiah 23:17

"and she [Tyre] must ... commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth."

4.) The spiritistic activities of BTG are believed by the Watchtower to be an absolute certification of the identity of BTG as a religious entity. However, in the case of Ninevah we have an example of a political whore described as a sorceress: Nahum 3:4

"owing to the abundance of prostitution...a mistress of sorceries...ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."

5.) Finally, the Watchtower makes remarks about how rich WEFR is. In the Babylon the Great book even referring to WEFR as "doubtless...the richest organization on earth today. There is no need to even ask for proof of this absurd conclusion. It is worse than naive it clearly void of any kind of thought. Religion, typically accounts for slightly less than 1% of the worlds economic activity. Hardly enough to cause wailing on the part of Ship Captains and Traveling merchants. What if you totaled up all the real property of the Worlds Religions. Then what? Should they sell it and tell people to hold onto their 1% contributions for a few years. Religion just isn't a big economic factor. If the Watchtower has some evidence to show that WEFR is a BIG enough factor to cause the Traveling Merchants and Ship Captains to mourn they haven't shared it with their readers.

6.) If the end is imminent then Babylon the Great should be at its peak. Revelation 18:7,8

"For in her heart she keeps saying, I sit a queen... that is why in one day her plagues will come."

Only a very rich political entity with a rate of consumption that would enrich all the worlds traveling merchants and ship captains could fit the role of BTG. Since we are "supposed" to be close to the end and since the USA is simultaneously the richest and most powerful entity on Earth, - exercising hegemony over all the kingdoms of the earth - then it is clear that we had better be watching for the time when God's people must literally flee the geographical territory of the USA/BTG.

So,it really isn't very complicated. JW's no doubt are emotionally attached to this Watchtower teaching in the same way some are attached to the Trinity. I know that to believe that BTG is the USA would require a major overhaul of Watchtower prophesy. I've done most of the work already. It can be proven:

Slaughtered head of beast at Rev 13 is USSR.
The two horned beast is a closer look at the revived head of the beast.
The Scarlet colored beast is not the UN but another look at the beast of Rev 13. It was, Is not (received deathstroke), yet IS (deathstroke healed)
The disgusting thing that causes desolation is not UN
The little Horn in Daniel is not the Anglo American world power but is the USSR.
The feet of clay and Iron is the USSR with its nationalities problem.
The successor to the Roman Empire is the Third Rome = Moscow or Russia and not Britain.
The King of the South is never heard from after the King of the North floods over because The USA/BTG is destroyed.

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

It may have been the opinion of some early Christians that Rome was Babylon the Great but that is not an adequate explanation. They admittedly get into trouble when they try to explain the beast that she rides and which eventually destroys Babylon the Great.

It is clear that Babylon the Great represents some political entity. Watchtower writers have gotten way off the mark with their construct of a "world empire of false religion". At first they fell for the erroneous protestant notion that the harlot was the Roman Catholic Church. Later they changed that to include all false religion. To prove that idea they used a process of elimination argument which is very easy to disprove. They claim that since she has intercourse with all the nations of the earth she can't be a political entity. This claim is false because it ignores the same relationship Tyre & Ninevah are said to have with all the nations of the earth. The Watchtower develops this process of elimination argument by saying that religion is absent from the mourning of Babylon the Great. This is circular reasoning that assumes that religion was part of the scene in the first place.

On the other hand the preterist arguments don't eliminate the possibility of a Babylon the Great on earth today. In fact there is an entity that fits the description of Babylon the Great. The richest entity that has ever existed is the United States. In case you haven't paid much attention to the world situation most of the nations on earth resent the mono-polar world dominated by the USA.

The Wild Beast the USA is trying to ride is the seventh manifestation of the series of empires that started with Egypt. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Persia 5. Greece 6. Rome 7. Russia.

Russia??

Yes. Russia became the seventh not the Anglo/American. Westerners don't understand the significance of Moscow as the third Rome. The west tends to think of the Roman empire as centered on the City of Rome. The center of gravity of the Roman empire was really in the east/Levant. Constantinople fell much later and the Russians proudly declared themselves the inheritors of the Roman Empire.

Revelation says one of the heads of the beast (7th most likely) appeared as though slaughtered to death. But its death stroke got healed and it became an eighth king. Is it just coincidental that the USSR died in 1991 but is now beginning to show it's old menacing behavior. The USA keeps pushing NATO (a military alliance) right up to Russia's front door. The Kings who have not received a kingdom (former soviet republics) are gradually forming alliances with Russia against the USA. True Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova have recently turned toward the West but that is all the more reason the remaining tyrants are worried that the price they may have to pay for befriending the USA is that they will be removed in some kind of "color" revolution.

The "bomb" that will explode in the USA will be a Russian effort to distract the USA from its plans in the Caucasus. The Moslems will be convenient scapegoats. It will be the Russians who benefit.

Cui Bono? Who Benefits... solves the crime.

The Preterists have it wrong. Tim Lahaye (Left Behind Author) has it WRONG. The Watchtower has it REALLY WRONG. I am positive I have it right.

47

How Do YOU View Ex Elders On This Board?

by minimus in

jw
friends

do you think that if a person was an elder that when he comes on these boards, he still thinks and acts like an elder??

?

proplog2

I look at former elders like I look at former German SS men. They ALL did some bad stuff and behaved hypocritically.

Elders tend to have an ass-licking temperament. I don't get along with that type. I'm not an organizational man.

I hate politics and those who engage in it... even though I know it is a necessary evil.

I AM not and never was in any situation an ALPHA MALE and so I detest hierarchy again - even though I know it is necessary.

I believe X-Elders have a greater responsibility to use their leadership to expose the wrongs they were privy to. They need to serve some time.

43

WHO WAS RIGHT/WRONG: JESUS or PAUL?

by Terry in

jesus didn't exactly explicate hebrew scripture the way paul did.

jesus was like an undercover agent, a mole, using a small network to accomplish a spy mission.

paul or jesus?

proplog2

The purpose of law is to guide by establishing acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

The law has served its purpose when it has been integrated into ones nature - through habit - (written on one's heart).

Jesus is alleged to be such a person.

Unfortunately the law of Moses was a wacky accumulation of traditions and practices of Middle Eastern Nomads.

Jesus cut through all of that by saying that there is basically one law which is to love.

I don't think Paul was out of harmony with that. Paul was dealing with political situations in various congregations. A lot of his actions were situational and we don't have the facts on the situations he was in.

Sure he was for depriving certain members of fellowship. What should a congregation do with a "child molester" for example.

23

A question for my atheist friends.

by PaNiCAtTaCk in

i can certainly understand why many turn atheist but what would you tell your 5 year old daughter who was conscience but dying on a hospital bed looking into your eyes?

would you be inclined to give her some hope of a better place even though you didnt believe it yourself?

thanks in advance!

proplog2

While lying as a policy is bad - sometimes its a good strategy.

I still console elderly JW's by telling them the end is very near. Of course it is...

We will all get "IT" in "THE END".

63

Semi-Fluff - What is your favourite Science Fiction Book?

by Clam in

for those of you who like science fiction - what is your favourite science fiction book, or indeed film?

proplog2

I read very little fiction. But I did enjoy World of Null-A by Van Vogt.

It is based on General Semantics.

43

WHO WAS RIGHT/WRONG: JESUS or PAUL?

by Terry in

jesus didn't exactly explicate hebrew scripture the way paul did.

jesus was like an undercover agent, a mole, using a small network to accomplish a spy mission.

paul or jesus?

proplog2

Auld Soul:

Too bad we can't travel in time and settle this. However, we can still make a case for the probable person Jesus was. Great movements don't take off without a person having a strong belief in what they were doing. Jesus may have been a mad man. But to deny that he intended people to follow him is the least probable scenario. He had a major impact on civilization. That kind of impact in a day without mass media outlets required an extraordinary person. Jesus worked the crowd.

Paul, too, was dynamic. Whatever you may believe it was, he did experience something powerful while he was on the road. I believe it was some kind of input our civilization needed.

I don't believe in God but I do believe that in this multiverse there are advanced intelligent beings that have evolved past our level and serve as preservers and mid-wives of planetary cultures.

43

WHO WAS RIGHT/WRONG: JESUS or PAUL?

by Terry in

jesus didn't exactly explicate hebrew scripture the way paul did.

jesus was like an undercover agent, a mole, using a small network to accomplish a spy mission.

paul or jesus?

proplog2

Jesus fullfilled the law. He believed that the law had served its purpose. "If you love me you will observe "My Commandments".

Paul was clearly following in Jesus' footsteps by fighting against the Judaisers.

There is an interesting book "Why The Jews Rejected Jesus" by David Klinghoffer. (Doubleday 20050

In this book he makes the very strong claim that the document at Acts 15 concerning circumcision was the founding of western civilization.

If the Christian Congregation had stood firm on circumcision that would have been the end of Christianity. Christianity would have been just one of many Jewish Sects and it would have died. The ruling that ended circumcision made it possible for Christianity to take hold in the the Gentile World. It made it possible for Christianity to have such an impact that people for a thousand years identified themselves as Christians not as Italians, Germans, Greeks etc.

It's amazing how JW's read that document at Acts 15 as primarily a statement on eating blood. Paul was happy to get out of Jerusalem with a settlement of the circumcision issue. He never seemed to like the suggestion that Gentiles compromise by keeping a Kosher table.

The first 2 Chapters of Galatians are interesting in this regard. Paul does not speak highly of his trip with Barnabas to Jerusalem. Apparently he made it back to Antioch before the Letter from James reached them. Paul was upset that Peter quit eating with the Gentiles as soon as the reps from Jerusalem arrived.

I think Klinghoffer makes a valid point. Western Civilization which is Christian got underway with the council at Jerusalem. Was this providential?

I believe it was. It seems as if there are forces that are effective in the evolution of Earths culture that are from outside of the Earth. Little tweaks that push humans in the right direction without interfering too much in the natural course of events. Kind of like the butterfly in the Amazon that starts a hurricane.