proplog2

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Posts by proplog2

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  66

  Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

  a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

  while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

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  proplog2

  I said I was done with this thread.
  
  I'm not claiming "victory" only satisfaction.
  
  I am satisfied that I have stated my case.
  
  It seems the really BIG JWD intellectuals have avoided this thread for some reason.
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  9

  Calculus in 20 minutes

  by VM44 in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  professor edward burger of williams college gets you ready for your calculus 1 final by covering the entire course in under 20 minutes

  calculus in 20 minutes part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex_is9lzfsy.

  calculus in 20 minutes part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9okftdg4fy.

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  proplog2

  Thanks for the link. My Explorer Favorites is loaded with goodies like this. If I could only stay off this forum I could learn a lot.
  
  Have you ever signed up at Stumble?
  
  Here is one of my favorite. I load up my Palm Pilot with this stuff and read it at the meeting.
  
  http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/
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  70

  What do you think about Demons now?

  by tooktheredpill in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi guys!.

  as many of you know, i'm still inside the borg, but my mind is completely disconnected.

  i had a chat with some friends during the week, and they started sharing experiences they had, dealing with demons in the past.. i heard some stories from brothers from cuba, that used to be mediums or "saints", and how the demons "immediately started to attack them when they started learning the truth(tm)".

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  proplog2

  Whenever I hear a demon story I pursue it like a UFO sighting.
  
  Is it a first hand report?
  Was there drugs or alcohol use involved?
  Did the person who experienced it have a history of mental illness?
  Did it happen when they were a child and prone to fabrication?
  
  If it is a first hand report I look them in the eye and tell them I don't believe them. That is my final and best test. I have yet to have anyone get angry with me for saying I don't believe them. Ordinarily, if you call someone a liar those are fighting words. But they know they are lying.
  
  People like to scare themselves AND other people.
  
  I believe there are other intelligent entities in the universe. There might be some aliens out there with some great technology and an evil disposition. But, I have never encountered them.
• 
  66

  Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

  a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

  while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

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  proplog2

  So far several people on this thread have stated that the explanation for Christians engaging in warfare is that they became the majority in various lands.
  
  That may be an "explanation" but it doesn't serve as "justification" for abandoning Christian neutrality.
  
  Most of the religions of Christendom are guilty of engaging in Warfare. There is no plea that can absolve them of their guilt.
  
  Drew's statement that the Watchtower's argument is "bogus" cannot be supported by the facts.
  
  I am confident that newbies and lurkers that are viewing this discussion (and who have read ALL of it) will see through this attack on JW beliefs. JW's would fit in quite well with the 1st Century followers of Christ. As stated before although opposing this worlds wars is not a SUFFICIENT CONDITION for declaring a religion "Christian" it IS!!!! a NECESSARY condition.
  
  It is appropriate to compare JW's with all the other Christian religions on this issue. You may still want to say that JW's don't meet some OTHER "necessary" condition but they DO meet this extremely important condition and 95% of the other claimants DON'T. And because this is such an important issue of Christ's teachings the field of selection for "true" Christians is greatly reduced.
  
  With this I EXIT this particular thread.
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  5

  2 figurative numbers doesn't = 1 literal number!

  by WingCommander in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i think this was posted on another one of the forums on here, but i think it is good enough to warrant repeating.

  when someone posted this logic, it made so much sense and i couldn't believe i had never thought of this before!

  in regards to the book of revelation and the 144,000, the wtbs believes that the 12,000 jews out of the 12 tribes of israel are figurative.

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  proplog2

  The 144,000 are the ones that follow the lamb no matter where he goes, even into sacrificial death. They are ALL martyrs.
• 
  66

  Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

  a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

  while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

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  proplog2

  jwfacts:
  
  
  Some old business before I get to your "new" business.
  
  
  You said:
  
  
  

  "JWs can leech off the services of armies. However, it would be a very different story if JWs were the majority, you would very quickly see a change in stance on war.

  
  
  

  Pacifism is untenable as it lets the worlds tyrants dominate. There will always be the Hitlers, Pol Pots etc, so if the majority of people were Pacifists they would have free reign to dominate the world to the detriment of everyone."

  
  
  Are you sure you want to say that JW's "leech" off the services of armies? You make it seem as if there are no consequences for their actions. They are willing to die rather than take up arms. Now I could see your point if JW's were trying to avoid death and were cowards. But, just like the early Christians they accept death and imprisonment at the hand of the government. So who is a Christian's real enemy?
  
  
  Pacisfism has worked when it has been tried.
  
  
  I don't expect everyone to read the lengthy quotes I posted on the Early Church leaders attitude toward warfare. However, I at least hope that those who would want to carry on a dialog would do the courtesy of reading them.
  
  
  In answer to my question "What happened that Christians went from victim to persecutors after the 3rd Century".
  
  
  Your answer was:
  
  
  "They went from a minority to a majority."
  
  
  But you are skipping the most important part. What did they do to become a majority? The teachings of Jesus were extremely unpopular. What did they do to increase their appeal to the masses?
• 
  66

  Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

  a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

  while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

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  proplog2

  I have raised the question about what changed that the Early Christian Church went from running and hiding from their enemies to killing their enemies in war.

  Let's look at the view of Early Church Leaders. This is unusually long. If you are in a hurry read a couple of the quotes to get the general idea. Then proceed to my argument at the very bottom.

  Ignatius

  Take heed, then, often to come together to give thanks to God, and show forth His praise. For when ye assemble frequently in the same place, the powers of Satan are destroyed, and the destruction at which he aims is prevented by the unity of your faith. Nothing is more precious than peace, by which all war, both in heaven and earth, is brought to an end. (110 A.D., The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter XIII)

  Jusin Martyr

  We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies. (c. 160), ANF 1.176.

  We used to be filled with war, mutual slaughter, and every kind of wickedness. However, now all of us have, throughout the whole earth, changed our warlike weapons. We have changed our swords into plowshares, and our spears into farming implements. (c. 160), ANF 1.254.

  Athenagoras

  We have learned not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us. Instead, even to those who strike us on one side of the face, we offer the other side also. (c. 175), ANF 2.129.

  Irenaeus

  The new covenant that brings back peace and the law that gives life have gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: "For out of Zion will go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and he will rebuke many people; and they will break down their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they will no longer learn to fight." ... These people [i.e., Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares,... that is, into instruments used for peaceful purposes. So now, they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek. (c. 180) ANF 1.512.

  Clement

  t is not in war, but in peace, that we are trained. (c. 195), ANF 2.234.

  The Scythians, the Celts, the Iberians, and the Thracians are all warlike races. They are also greatly addicted to intoxication and think that drunkenness is an honorable, happy pursuit to engage in. But we, the people of peace, feast for lawful enjoyment, not to wantonness. We drink sober cups of friendship. (c. 195), ANF 2.246

  The spiritual man never cherishes resentment or harbors a grudge against anyone -- even though deserving of hatred for his conduct. (c. 195), ANF 2.540.

  Paul does not merely describe the spiritual man as being characterized by suffering wrong, rather than doing wrong. Rather, Paul teaches that a Christian does not keep count of injuries. For Paul does not allow him even to pray against the man who has done wrong to him. For he knows that the Lord expressly commanded us to pray for our enemies. (c. 195), ANF 2.548.

  Christians are not allowed to use violence to correct the delinquencies of sins. (c. 195), ANF 2.581.

  But for a man, bare feet are quite in keeping -- except when he is on military service. (c. 195), ANF 2.267.

  Tertullian

  The one instrument of peace is what we employ: the Word alone, by whom we honor God. We no longer use the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel, and flute. For those who are God puts His prohibition on every sort of man-killing by that one inclusive commandment: "You shall not kill." (c. 197), ANF 3.80.

  "Nation will not take up sword against nation, and they will no more learn to fight." Who else, therefore, does this prophecy apply to, other than us? For we are fully taught by the new law, and therefore observe these practices ... The practice of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the sword. It was to pluck out "eye for eye," and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury. However, the teaching of the new law points to clemency. It changes the primitive ferocity of swords and lances to tranquility. It remodels the primitive execution of war upon the rivals and enemies of the Law into the peaceful actions of plowing and cultivating the land. (c. 197), ANF 3.154.

  Now inquiry is made about the point of whether a believer may enter into military service. The question is also asked whether those in the military may be admitted into the faith even the rank and file (or any inferior grade), who are not required to take part in sacrifices or capital punishments ... A man cannot give his allegiance to two masters -- God and Caesar ... How will a Christian man participate in war? In fact, how will he serve even in peace without a sword? For the Lord has taken the sword away. It is also true that soldiers came to John [the Baptist] and received the instructions for their conduct. It is true also that a centurion believed. Nevertheless, the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier. (c. 200), ANF 3.73.

  Men of old were used to requiring "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth" and to repay evil for evil, with usury! ... But after Christ has supervened and has united the grace of faith with patience, now it is no longer lawful to attack others even with words, nor to merely say "fool," without danger of the judgment... Christ says, "Love your enemies and bless your cursers, and pray for your persecutors." (c. 200), ANF 3.711.

  If someone attempts to provoke you by physical violence, the admonition of the Lord is at hand. He says, "To him who strikes you on the face, turn the other cheek also." Let outrageousness be worn out by your patience. Whatever that blow may be, joined with pain and scorn, it will receive a heavier one from the Lord. (c. 200), ANF 3.712.

  For what difference is there between provoker and provoked? The only difference is that the former was the first to do evil, but the latter did evil afterwards. Each one stands condemned in the eyes of the Lord for hurting a man. For God both prohibits and condemns every wickedness. In evil doing, there is no account taken of the order... The commandment is absolute: evil is not to be repaid with evil. (c. 200), ANF 3.713.

  "And they will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks." In other words, they will change the dispositions of injurious minds, hostile tongues, blasphemy, and all kinds of evil into pursuits of moderation and peace. "Nation will not lift up sword against nation." That is, they will not stir up conflict. "Neither will they learn war any more"-that is, the provocation of hostilities. So you should learn from this that Christ was not promised to be powerful in war. Rather, He was promised to pursue peace. Now, you must deny either that these things were foretold (although they are plainly seen) or that they have been fulfilled (although you read of them). (c. 207) 3.339-340.

  The Lord will save them in that day -- even His people -- like sheep... No one gives the name of "sheep" to those who fall in battle with arms in hand, or those who are killed when repelling force with force. Rather, it is given only to those who are slain, yielding themselves up in their own place of duty and with patience -- rather than fighting in self-defense. (c. 207), ANF 3.415.

  The soldiers, crowned with laurels, were approaching. However, one of them was more a soldier of God. In fact, he was more steadfast than the rest of his brethren, who had imagined that they could serve two masters. His head alone was uncovered, for he held the useless wreath in his hand. By that peculiarity alone, he was recognized by everyone as being a Christian. (c. 211), ANF 3.93.

  Of course, if faith comes later and finds someone already occupied with military service, their case is different. For example, there is the instance of those whom John [the Baptist] received for baptism, and of those most faithful centurions. I mean the centurion whom Christ approved, and the centurion whom Peter instructed [i.e., Cornelius]. Yet, at the same time, when a man has become a believer and faith has been sealed, there must be either an immediate abandonment of the military office, which has been the course of many-or else all sorts of quibbling will have to be resorted to in order to avoid offending God. And such quibbling is not allowed even outside of military service. (c. 211), ANF 3.100.

  I think we must first inquire whether warfare is proper at all for Christians. What point is there in discussing the merely incidental, when that on which it rests is to be condemned? Do we believe it is lawful for a human oath to be added to one that is divine? Is it lawful for a man to come to be pledged to another master after Christ has become his Master? Is it lawful to renounce father, mother, and all nearest kinsfolk, whom even the Law has commanded us to honor and love next to God himself?... Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword, when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law? Will he who is not the avenger even of his own wrongs, apply the chain, the prison, the torture, and the punishment? (c. 211) 3.100.

  Is the [military] laurel of triumph made of leaves, or of corpses? Is it adorned with ribbons, or with tombs? Is it wet with ointments, or with the tears of wives and mothers? It may be made of some [dead] Christians too. For Christ is also believed among the barbarians. (c. 211) 3.101.

  Our religion commands us to love even our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us. (c. 212) 3.105.

  Hippolytus

  A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God." (c. 200, Apostolic Tradition 16:17-19)

  Origen

  The existence of many kingdoms would have been a hindrance to the spread of the doctrine of Jesus throughout the entire world... This was because of the need for men everywhere to engage in war and fight on behalf of their native country -- -which was the case before the times of Augustus... How, then, was it possible for the Gospel doctrine of peace to prevail throughout the world? For it does not permit men to take vengeance even upon their enemies. It was only possible because, at the coming of Jesus, a milder spirit had been everywhere introduced into the conduct of things. (c. 248), ANF 4.444.

  The statement [of Celsus, a pagan critic] is false "that in the days of Jesus, others who were Jews rebelled against the Jewish state and became His followers." For neither Celsus, nor those who think like him, are able to point out any act on the part of Christians that hints of rebellion. In fact, if a revolt had led to the formation of the Christian commonwealth, the Christian Lawgiver would not have altogether forbidden the putting of men to death. So it could not have derived its existence in such a way from the Jews. For they were permitted to take up arms in defense of the members of their families and to slay their enemies. Yet, Christ nowhere teaches that it is right for His own disciples to offer violence to anyone, no matter how wicked. For He did not consider it to be in accord with His laws to allow the killing of any individual whomever. For His laws were derived from a divine source. Indeed, if the Christians truly owed their origin to a rebellion, they would not have adopted laws of so exceedingly mild a character. For their laws do not allow them on any occasion to resist their persecutors, even when it was their fate to be slain as sheep. (c. 248), ANF 4.467.

  Christians were taught not to avenge themselves upon their enemies... They would not have made war (although capable) even if they had received authority to do so. For they have obtained this reward from God: that He has always warred on their behalf. On certain occasions, he has restrained those who rose up against them and desired to destroy them... On special occasions, some have endured death for the sake of Christianity, and those individuals can be easily numbered. However, God has not permitted the whole nation [of Christians] to be exterminated. (c. 248), ANF 4.467, 468.

  Perhaps the so-called wars among the bees convey instructions as to the manner in which wars should be waged in a just and orderly way among men -- if ever there arise a necessity for them. (c. 248), ANF 4.533.

  To those who inquire of us from where we come, or who is our founder, we reply that we have come agreeably to the counsels of Jesus. We have cut down our hostile, insolent, and wearisome swords into plowshares. We have converted into pruning hooks the spears that were formerly used in war. For we no longer take up "sword against nation," nor do we "learn war any more." That is because we have become children of peace for the sake of Jesus, who is our Leader. (c. 248), ANF 4.558.

  Celsus [a pagan critic]

  "How could God command the Israelites through Moses to gather wealth, to extend their dominion, to fill the earth, to put their enemies of every age to the sword, and to destroy them utterly?... For, on the other hand, His Son, the man of Nazareth, promulgated laws quite opposed to these. He declared that no one can come to the Father who loves power, riches, or glory. Jesus said that to anyone who has given them one blow, they should offer to receive another. So is it Moses or Jesus who taught falsely? When the Father sent Jesus, did He forget the commands that He had given to Moses? Or did He change his mind, condemn His own laws, and send forth a Messenger with opposite instructions?" ...

  [ORIGEN'S REPLY:] We would observe that it must be impossible for the legislation of Moses, taken literally, to harmonize with the calling of the Gentiles and with their subjection to the Roman government. On the other hand, it would be impossible for the Jews to preserve their civil economy unchanged if they were to embrace the gospel. For Christians could not slay their enemies. Nor could they condemn those who had broken the law to be burned or stoned, as Moses commands... However, in the case of the ancient Jews, who had a land and a form of government of their own, to take from them the right of making war upon their enemies, of fighting for their country, of putting to death or otherwise punishing adulterers, murderers, or others who were guilty of similar crimes, would have been to subject them to sudden and utter destruction whenever the enemy fell upon them. For, in that case, their very laws would restrain them and prevent them from resisting the enemy. Yet, that same providence that of old gave the Law, and has now given the gospel of Jesus Christ, has destroyed their city and their temple, not wishing the Jewish state to continue any longer... However, this providence has extended the Christian religion day by day, so that it is now preached everywhere with boldness. And this is in spite of the numerous obstacles that oppose the spread of Christ's teaching in the world. However, since it was the purpose of God that the nations should receive the benefits of Christ's teaching, all the devices of men against Christians have been brought to nothing. For the more that kings, rulers, and peoples have persecuted them everywhere, the more Christians have increased in number and grown in strength. (c. 248), ANF 4.617, 618, 621.

  [CELSUS:]

  "You surely do not say that if (in compliance with your wish) the Romans were to neglect their customary duties to gods and men, and were to worship the Most High,... that He would come down and fight for them, so that they would not need any other help than His. For this same God... promised of old this and much more to those who served Him. Yet, see in what way He has helped the Jews and you! Instead of being masters of the whole word, the Jews are left with not so much as a patch of ground or a home."

  [ORIGEN'S REPLY - The value of prayer for national defense, for all people, for government leaders, and for all people in high positions ] What would happen if, instead of only a relatively few persons believing (as at the present), the entire empire of Rome believed? They would pray to the Word, who of old said to the Hebrews, when they were pursued by the Egyptians: "The Lord will fight for you, and you will hold your peace." And if all the Romans united in prayer with one accord, they would be able to put to flight far more enemies than those who were defeated by the prayer of Moses... However, He had made the fulfillment of His promises dependent on certain conditions-namely, that they would observe and live according to His Law... But if all the Romans embraced the Christian faith (according to the supposition of Celsus), they would overcome their enemies when they prayed. Or rather, they would not war at all. For they would be guarded by that divine power that promised to save five entire cities for the sake of fifty righteous persons. Men of God are assuredly the salt of the earth. They preserve the order of the world. And society is held together as long as the salt is uncorrupted... When God gives to the Tempter permission to persecute us, then we suffer persecution. And when God wishes us to be free from suffering -- even in the middle of a world that hates us -- we enjoy a wonderful peace, trusting in the protection of Him who said, "Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world." (c. 248), ANF 4.666.

  In the next place, Celsus urges us "to help the king with all our might, to labor with him in the maintenance of justice, and to fight for him. Or if he demands it, to fight under him or lead an army along with him." To this, our answer is that we do give help to kings when needed. But this is, so to speak, a divine help, "putting on the whole armor of God." And we do this in obedience to the commandment of the apostle: "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men; for kings, and for all who are in authority." So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can. And to those enemies of our faith who demand us to bear arms for the commonwealth and to slay men, we reply: "Do not those who are the priests at certain shrines... keep their hands free from blood, so that they may offer the appointed sacrifices to your gods with unstained hands that are free from human blood? Even when war is upon you, you never enlist the priests in the army. If, then, that is a praiseworthy custom, how much more so that when others are engaged in battle Christians engage as the priests and ministers of God, keeping their hands pure. For they wrestle in prayers to God on behalf of those who are fighting in a righteous cause, and for the king who reigns righteously. They pray that whatever is opposed to those who act righteously may be destroyed.

  Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. Those demons also lead persons to violate their oaths and to disturb the peace. Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them. And we do take our part in public affairs when we join self-denying exercises to our righteous prayers and meditations, which teach us to despise pleasures and not to be led away by them. So none fight better for the king than we do. Indeed, we do not fight under him even if he demands it. Yet, we fight on his behalf, forming a special army-an army of godliness-by offering our prayers to God. And if Celsus would have us "lead armies in defense of our country," let him know that we do this too. And we do not do it for the purpose of being seen by men or for vainglory. For in secret, and in our own hearts, our prayers ascend on behalf of our fellow-citizens, as from priests. And Christians are benefactors of their country more than others. For they train up citizens and inculcate piety to the Supreme Being. And they promote to a divine and heavenly city those whose lives in the smallest cities have been good and worthy. (c. 248), ANF 4.667, 668.

  Cyprian

  Wars are scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood. And murder-which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual-is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless-but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale! (c. 250), ANF 5.277.

  Christians do not attack their assailants in return, for it is not lawful for the innocent to kill even the guilty. (c. 250), ANF 5.351.

  We may not hate. And we please God more by rendering no return for wrong. Therefore, we exhort you to make satisfaction to God. Do this while you have the power, while there yet remains in you something of life... We do not envy your comforts, nor do we conceal the divine benefits. We repay kindness for your hatred. In return for the torments and penalties that are inflicted on us, we point out to you the ways of salvation. (c. 250), ANF 5.465.

  The Christian has departed from rage and carnal contention as if from the hurricanes of the sea. He has already begun to be tranquil and meek in the harbor of Christ. Therefore, he should allow neither anger nor discord within his breath. For he must neither return evil for evil, nor bear hatred. (c. 250), ANF 5.488.

  Even our enemies are to be loved. (c. 250), ANF 5:546.

  The hand must not be spotted with the sword and blood -- not after the Eucharist is carried in it. (c. 250), ANF 5.488.

  Lucius Caecilius Firmianus Lactantius

  When the worship of God was taken away, men lost the knowledge of good and evil... They then began to fight with one another, to plot, and to achieve glory for themselves from the shedding of human blood. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.141.

  If only God were worshipped, there would not be dissensions and wars. For men would know that they are the sons of one God. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.143.

  Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men? Would he be delighted with foreign merchandise or with human blood-he who does not know how to seek gain? For the Christian is satisfied with his standard of living. He considers it unlawful not only to commit slaughter himself, but also to be present with those who do it. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.153.

  Religion is to be defended -- not by putting to death -- but by dying. Not by cruelty, but by patient endurance. Not by guilt, but by good faith. For the former belongs to evil, but the latter to the good... For if you wish to defend religion by bloodshed, tortures, and guilt, it will no longer be defended. Rather, it will be polluted and profaned... And, therefore, when we suffer such impious things, we do not resist even in word. Rather, we leave vengeance to God. We do not act as those persons who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, who rage without restraint against those who do not worship them. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.157, 158.

  If desire is restrained, no one will use violence by land or by sea. No one will lead an army to carry off and lay waste the property of others… For what are the interests of our country, but the detriments of another state or nation? To extend the boundaries that are violently taken from others, to increase the power of the state, to improve the revenues-all of these things are not virtues. Rather, they are the overthrowing of virtues. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.169.

  How can a man be just who hates, who despoils, who puts to death? Yet, those who strive to be serviceable to their country do all these things... When they speak of the "duties" relating to warfare, their speech pertains neither to justice nor to true virtue. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.169.

  The Stoics say that the emotion of anger is the whetstone of virtue. As though no one could fight bravely against enemies unless he were excited by anger. By this, they plainly show that they neither know what virtue is, nor why God gave anger to man. If it were given to us for the purpose of using it to slay men, then what creature can be considered more savage than man? Who resembles the wild beasts more than that creature whom God formed for communion and innocence? (c. 304-313), ANF 7.185.

  Therefore, it is not befitting that those who strive to keep to the path of justice should be companions and sharers in this public homicide. For when God forbids us to kill, He prohibits more than the open violence that is not even allowed by the public laws. He also warns us against doing those things that are considered lawful among men. For that reason, it will not be lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself. Nor is it lawful for him to accuse anyone of a capital charge. For it makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or by the sword instead. That is because it is the act of putting to death itself that is prohibited. Therefore, with regard to this commandment of God, there should be no exception at all. Rather, it is always unlawful to put a man to death, whom God willed to be a sacred creature. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.187.

  It is not right that a worshipper of God should be injured by a another worshipper of God. (c. 304-313), ANF 7.271.

  Then Diocletian, in furious passion, ordered not only all who were assisting at the holy ceremonies, but also all who resided within the palace, to sacrifice. And, if they refused, they were to be whipped. And further, by letters to the commanding officers, he ordered that all soldiers should be forced to the same impiety, under pain of being dismissed from the service. (c. 320), ANF 7.304, 305.

  Diocletian said that it would be enough for him to exclude persons of that religion [i.e., Christians] from the court and the army. (c. 320), ANF 7.305.

  So once again I ask you Drew what changed? Is it wrong to call attention to the attitude of the Early Church? Is it wrong to compare the Church up to around 300 to the Church in 400? They were struggling with the kinds of issues JW's have also considered.

  I doubt many have stayed with this thread at this point. It's a lot of reading. But you have to realize that while non-involvement in wars is not a sufficient condition to being considered a "good Christian" it certainly appears to be a necessary condition.

  Non-involvement in war is a very important litmus test and JW's have very good reasons to point this out.
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  9

  what is this about ??

  by memphisbelle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have been a jw for thirty years, attending meetings at the same kh all this time.

  about seven years ago, i began to wonder to myself if the jws were the only religion that god approves of.

  six years ago, a very good childhood friend of mine died from a long illness, ( he was not a jw) and i was quite bothered by his death.

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  proplog2

  You're not going to hear this from anyone else BUT...
  
  What you have experienced is in the normal range of idiotic human behavior. It happens in the work place. It happened in the first century congregation of Christians. It happens in troops of chimps even in the chicken coop.
  
  The closer people are to each other the more frequent these episodes. Families are a cesspool of bad behavior. Small towns are notorious.
  
  Go to a Catholic Church where people won't bother you. In fact they won't even know that you exist. (There are probably small parishes where you have the same kind of problems.)
  
  Love does not keep account of injury.
  
  Now that I've said that----keep studying but with a critical mind so that you can discover that JW doctrine like all religion is screwed up.
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  66

  Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

  a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

  while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

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  proplog2

  Drew:
  JW's are not the only ones in the course of history who have felt neutrality is a necessary requirement of those who would claim to follow Christ.
  
  The early Christians were against war. Tertullian was very clear in explaining why a soldier would be hypocritical to remain as such.
  
  What happened that changed Christians from people who fled and hid from their persecutors to the point where they felt they needed to kill their enemies?
  
  Notice there is a difference between the early christians (1st 3 centuries) and the christians after the third century.
  
  So tell me Drew, what happened?
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  28

  Cola information what will you do???

  by zeroday in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  cola information, what will you do with it?.

  my doctor has this info on his website i thought it was interesting, being diabetic i only drink diet soda but it really makes you think.... from october 24, 2007 nutrition researchers posted in .

  childrens health, food science research.

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  proplog2

  My recent health history:
  
  Sept: Diagnosed with diabetes : blood glucose 500+ Started insulin twice per day. 195 lbs
  
  Quit eating sugar, honey any sweets including my 3 daily 12 oz cokes.
  
  Quit eating any bread, tortillas, noodles, pasta, dumplings
  
  Eat meat, brown rice or oatmeal, couple handfuls of nuts, low fat cottage cheese, milk, unsweetened yoghurt, 1 heavy fruit and one serving berries, all vegetables (except:for potatoes, squash, corn).
  
  Walk two miles per day (40minutes)
  
  Currently: off insulin, blood glucose 95 in morning 125 after meal. 173 lbs.
  
  Never hungry.