Posts by pseudoxristos

22

Are the Gospel Stories Fictional?

by JosephAlward in

there is abundant evidence that marks stories are fictional.

in this post, i will explain how marks story of jesus miraculous feeding of the five thousand (mark 6:32-42) was copied from scripture.. at the beginning of his story, mark wants his readers to believe that his jesus is just as compassionate as the lord, so he introduces him as a person who was just as concerned as the lord is for people who are like sheep without a shepherd.

the lord is my shepherd, i shall not be in want.

pseudoxristos

With a little basic background and a small amount of skepticism, how can anyone not wonder if the Gospels are fictional?

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

pomegranate,

Then I looked at the surrounding context in light of who this word "Para" could be meaning, and the truth was obvious. "His own [people]" meant the JEWISH (Jesus was a Jew member??) scribes who were not even there yet. They were in Jerusalem and left upon hearing of Jesus actions to TAKE CHARGE of him. Then, the following paragraph shows the JEWISH scribes arriving and claiming him to be possesed and of Satan.

Do you make this up as you go, or do you actually put some thought into it? Look at a map. It is at least 100 miles from Jerusalem to Capernaum or the Sea of Galilee. If the Scribes were still in Jerusalem, how do you account for their quick arrival? Or, do you believe Jesus and the crowd were there for several days, while the Scribes were making the trip from Jerusalem?

The account actually says that when the group of people in Mark 3:21 heard of this, they left to take custody of him. Mark 3:22, which actually talks about the Scribes, seems to suggest that they were already there, having previously come down from Jerusalem.

It is obvious to most people from the context and also when observing basic rules of grammar that Mark is referring to two different groups of people in Mark 3:21 and Mark 3:22. Therefore you are wrong in your assumption that “his own (people)” could mean the “JEWISH SCRIBES”.

“His own (people)” suggests these individuals were closer to him (in a figurative sense) than your suggestion of the Scribes. Your previous argument that this was a statement for protection is closer to the truth than your current fairy tale.

“His own (people)” went out to take custody of Him, neither because he blasphemed nor because he challenged their authority, but because they thought, "He has lost His senses". Again, this group of people is best explained, by the appearance of Jesus’ family in verse 31. In Mark 3:21, they went out to take custody of Him. In Mark 3:31, they arrive. They were there because they were concerned. They were there to “take custody of him”. They believed “he had lost his senses” because they did not know he was the “Christ”.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

Joe,

I have been trying to figure out why Mark would present Jesus in such manner. One possible explanation I was considering was that Mark, had the job of writing about something that was very significant and everyone should have already been aware of it. The Christ he wrote about was not exactly like the Christ that everyone expected. He therefore had to present Jesus in manner that would explain the general lack of knowledge about him among his own people. In other words, Mark is saying, The good news is, Christ came, here is what happened and not many knew of it.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

pomegranate,

I will be glad to know if the you believe "JEWISH SCRIBES" are protecting or insulting Jesus in this verse.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

Joe,

Thanks for bringing up the point about the irony theme. I found that Jesus telling his disciples to not tell anyone that he was "the Christ", to also be ironc. Mark 8:27-30

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

pomegranate,

In an earlier post you argued that the statement declaring Christ "out of his mind" was a statement for protection.

Declaring Christ "out of his mind" is certainly NOT a statement of rejection, disbelief or anything of the sort. And anyone that reads that understanding into the context is really lost in the dark of his own self suppositions. It was not a statement of rejection but rather a statement for protection.

Now that you have twisted the meaning of the first part of that verse so that the "JEWISH SCRIBES " are now making this statement. Would you care to twist the second part of that verse now? Or, are we to understand that the "JEWISH SCRIBES" are now making the statement for the protection of Jesus?

I'm Curious to see how the meaning of the phrase "out of his mind" is going to change to suit your desire to believe whatever you would like.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

Pomegranate,

PS. One more thing. Para is a PREPOSITION and a PREPOSITION ONLY. How is it that some Bible's have turned a PREPOSITION into a NOUN???
Family is a NOUN not a preposition, PARA is a preposition of PROXIMITY and NOT a NOUN, RIGHT?

So you are saying that Family is a noun but, Friends is not a noun? Ok, I'm beginning to see your logic.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

Pomegranate,

Verse nine says "at that time" which is refering to the time that all in Judea and Jerusalem were coming to John the baptizer at the Jordan to be baptized. Jesus came PUBLICALLY at the same time all the other people were coming to John to be baptized as other gospel accounts clearly show. At the time John was PUBLICALLY baptizing all of Judea, Jesus came AT THAT TIME. It was PUBLIC as plainly read in the context.

I stated that the announcement was not public. Obviously Jesus came publicly at that time, and John baptized him publicly, but the announcement was address to Jesus directly, as if he is speaking to Jesus alone. Compare how Jesus responded to a similar incident, when God made an announcement that was not directed to Jesus alone, but to Jesus and his disciples.

7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"
8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.
Mark 9:7-10 (NIV)

This announcement is obviously to others besides Jesus. Jesus' statement to "not tell anyone what they had seen", also contrasts with the baptism announcement that is obviously addressed to Jesus alone. The writer of Mark could not have been so careless as to portray both of theses announcements so differently, and have his readers not notice the difference.

People? Plural? You are inaccurately portraying what the Bible says. You are wrong. He told ONE leper not to spread the news of what happened to him. Jesus never said anything to this man regarding being the Messiah. How's it feel to mess up the Bible?

Are you sure your reading the book of Mark? Let me paste a few verses here. I am sure you will see that Jesus told this to "People", "Plural", not just one leper, and notice especially Mark 8:27-30. I'm sure you will wish you had never made that ridiculous statement.

34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
Mark 1:34 (NIV)
43 Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: 44 "See that you don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them."
Mark 1:43-44 (NIV)
11 Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12 But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was.
Mark 3:11-12 (NIV)
42 Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.
Mark 5:42-43 (NIV)
36 Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it.
Mark 7:36 (NIV)
25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. 26 Jesus sent him home, saying, "Don't go into the village."
Mark 8:25-26 (NIV)
27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?"
28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
29 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered, "You are the Christ."
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
Mark 8:27-30 (NIV)
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.
Mark 9:9-10 (NIV)

Where does it say they did not believe on him like it does in the hometown verses? It doesn't. You are fabricating.

Again, who else are the ones not believing on him in the hometown verses? Make sure you notice the words "relatives" and "his own house".

4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
Mark 6:4 (NIV)

Also (and here is where you sink like a rock), the MAJORITY of other Bibles render it out that the ones that were saying he was out of his mind were NOT family AT ALL, but people who knew him:

I wouldn't call that the Majority of the other Bibles. Lets see how the bibles I have access to, translate this.

21 And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
Mark 3:21 (ASV)
21 When his family heard about it, they went to restrain him. For they kept saying, "He's out of his mind!"
Mark 3:21 (ISV)
21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
Mark 3:21 (KJV)
21 And when His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."
Mark 3:21 (NASB)
21 When his family heard this, they went to get him because they thought he was out of his mind.
Mark 3:21 (NCV)
21 When his family heard this they went out to take control of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Mark 3:21 (NET)
21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Mark 3:21 (NIV)
21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, "He is out of His mind."
Mark 3:21 (NKJV)
21 When his family heard what was happening, they tried to take him home with them. "He's out of his mind," they said.
Mark 3:21 (NLT)
21 When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, "He has gone out of his mind."
Mark 3:21 (NRSV)
21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself."
Mark 3:21 (RSV)
21 When his friends heard what was happening, they came to try to take him home with them. "He's out of his mind," they said.
Mark 3:21 (Living)
21 and his friends having heard, went forth to lay hold on him, for they said that he was beside himself,
Mark 3:21 (Young's Literal Translation)
21 And his relatives having heard of it went out to lay hold on him, for they said, He is out of his mind.
Mark 3:21 (Darby's)

family/relatives = 8 translation
friends = 4 translation
own people = 2 translation

In the translations I have, it looks like the score is 8 in favor of "family" and 4 in favor of "friends".

As a matter of fact, now that I have even reviewed the Greek, the word FAMILY as normally used in Greek, is not even in the original Greek writings AT ALL. So now I have come to the realization because of all the other Bibles renderings, and examining the Greek, that the Bibles that have FAMILY rendered here in this verse are incorrect.
Those ones that were probably calling Jesus "out of his mind" were probably the ones from his HOMETOWN. Assuredly so.
You need to re-adjust friend. You are wrong.

A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
Entry under the Greek word "para".

"oi para tinos" --The Koine also uses this expr. to denote others who are intimately connected w. someone, e.g. family, relatives.

About 15 examples are given in various ancient works, including Mark 3:21. Therefore "oi par autou" is translated correctly as "his family", or "his relatives".

The RSV and the NRSV both obscure the meaning of Mark 3:21 when translating the Greek word "elegon". They translate it "for people were saying" instead of "they were saying". The same Greek word appears in the next verse (Mark 3:22). The RSV and NRSV translate it here as "said". The incorrect insertion of "people" into Mark 3:21, by the translators of the RSV and NRSV, attest to the fact that they do not like Jesus' family declaring him "out of his mind".

pseudoxristos

edited for formating

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

Mark 1:11 (NRSV)
11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased."

Compare Mark's version of Jesus' baptism with the other gospels. Mark clearly has God address Jesus directly, using the pronoun "YOU" as if he is speaking to Jesus alone. Mark does not portray this as a public announcement. The other gospels have God speaking to a crowd.

Matt 17:5 (NRSV)
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Therefore according to Mark no announcement was made that he was the Messiah.

Also notice in Mark that Jesus himself encouraged people not to go spreading the word that he was the Messiah.

Mark 1:41-45 (NRSV)
41 Moved with pity, Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, "I do choose. Be made clean!" 42 Immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. 43 After sternly warning him he sent him away at once, 44 saying to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely, and to spread the word, so that Jesus could no longer go into a town openly, but stayed out in the country; and people came to him from every quarter.

Mark constantly uses the word "immediately" or "at once" (depending on the translation) to make transitions from event to event, this gives the impression of a rapid sequence of events. So according to Mark not much time has passed from baptism to his return to home in Mark 2:1.

Mark 2:1 (NRSV)
1 When he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home.

Notice from this point on Jesus starts having problems with the Jewish Leaders. This is probably when his family first heard what he was proclaiming.

He latter departed.

Mark 3:7 (NRSV)
7 Jesus departed with his disciples to the sea, and a great multitude from Galilee followed him;

Now notice that he came back, his family heard of it and went out. Therefore they had not been with him and they did not know that he was the Messiah. They thought he was "out of his mind". Why? Because they did not believe he was the Messiah. Yes, I'm sure they were concerned, he was Mary's son, and any mother would be. But, they did not believe he was the Messiah. In this manner they rejected him as the Messiah not as their son, or relative.

Mark 3:20-21 (NRSV)
Then he went home; 20 and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat. 21 When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, "He has gone out of his mind."

***

Summary:
Jesus was baptized. He was probably old enough to not have his mother hanging around all the time. Mark does not mention that Mary was there when he was baptized. If she was, the address from God was to Jesus personally. She still doesn't know he is the Messiah. Then he was immediately taken to the wilderness. She wasn't there with him either. He started his ministry. He came home. He then started having problems with the Jewish Leaders. He left. He came back. His family heard, and were concerned, because they did not think he was the Messiah, They believed he was out of his mind. They were still concerned for him as a relative, they would still mourn his death as any mother or relative would. The debate is "Jesus was rejected as the Messiah", not as a son or relative.

Actually the thread is about Adam & eve.

pseudoxristos

***note: The NRSV translates the greek word "elegon" in Mark 3:21 as "people were saying", this is normally translated "they were saying" in other translations. This seems to change the meaning of the original text when reading the NRSV. I didn't realize this until after the post. Sorry for any confusion.

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

pseudoxristos

pomegranate

I believe you're reading the WRONG passage friend in relation to town rejection. When Joe is mentioning hometown rejection, he is talking about when Jesus went back to his home town in chapter 6.

Yes, after reading the post again, I did use the wrong passage in debating this point; the townspeople in Jesus' hometown did reject him.

We are in agreement on the point that his family declared that he was "out of his mind". We are not in agreement as to the reason why they declared him out of his mind. Nowhere in the text of Mark does he ever suggest that they did this to protect him. If so, please show me a reference that clearly states this.

I certainly agree with your comments on Mark 6:1-6.

That's called being BELITTLED, TAKING OFFENSE and REJECTING.

Are we to understand in Mark 6:4 that Jesus was only referring to the "townspeople" when he uses terms such as "relatives" and "in his own house"? It appears that not only did the townspeople "BELITTLE, TAKE OFFENSE and REJECT" Jesus, but also his "relatives" and "his own house", "BELITTLED, TOOK OFFENSE and REJECTED" Jesus.

In Summary, Mark 3 clearly shows the relatives including Mary declaring Jesus out of his mind, followed by his reaction to his mother and family. Mark 6 reinforces this, by showing the townspeople and relatives rejection of Jesus. Nowhere in Mark does it state that the relatives already knew that Jesus was the Messiah (no infancy narrative), therefore their thinking him "out of his mind" and rejection, are not to be unexpected. The idea of the family knowing he was the Messiah, along with the assertion that they declared him out of his mind for his protection, is in error. I consider this to be bringing ideas (probably from the other gospels) to the text of Mark, which just aren't there.