Posts by pseudoxristos

5

In the "Book of Enoch", is the word archangels (the Watchers) correctly interpreted as such from the ancient aramaic language?

by I_love_Jeff in

in the "book of enoch", the archangels are also known as "the watchers".

what is the ancient aramaic word for archangels in the "book of enoch"?

is it correctly interpreted to mean archangels or "the watchers"?

pseudoxristos

Leolaia,

I'm not sure quite what you mean here since it states that "Aramaic iri ("watcher" singular) is also applied to the obedient archangels who chain them, such as Raphael".

Looking back at my post, I should have phrased that first sentence a little differently. Maybe more like the article put it; "The term irin is primarily applied to disobedient Watchers...".

As you brought out, the qualification "holy" is probably used to distinguish the good and bad angels. I wish that there was more support for the idea that the 7 "holy angels who watch" (in chapter XX) were archangels while the rest (200 in chapter VI) were just "watchers", but unfortunately I don't think the text can be forced to support this idea conclusively. It seems that the idea of archangels is a later concept that is being forced back into the text of Enoch.

Another interesting point I noticed, is that chapter VI mentions the "chiefs" of the "two hundred; who descended". Although I'm not familar with the underlying text, I would think that the reference here to "chiefs" (or chief angels) would have a very similar meaning to "archangels".

pseudo

CHAPTER VI.

1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. 8. These are their chiefs of tens.

...

CHAPTER XX.

1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

5

In the "Book of Enoch", is the word archangels (the Watchers) correctly interpreted as such from the ancient aramaic language?

by I_love_Jeff in

in the "book of enoch", the archangels are also known as "the watchers".

what is the ancient aramaic word for archangels in the "book of enoch"?

is it correctly interpreted to mean archangels or "the watchers"?

pseudoxristos

Some may suggest a link between the Watchers and the fallen angels in the Flood account along with the angels in Jude 1:6. Wikipedia has an interesting article that brings up this connection which would suggest that the Watchers and the Archangels are not the same. Later in the article it says that the Aramaic iri ("watcher" singular) is also used to refer to Archangels such as Raphael. I think that it would be hard to argue that the Watchers and the Archangels are one in the same.

I doubt that Witnesses will consider any references to extra-biblical literature as valid and will refuse to acknowledge that any thing other than the Watchtowers point of view should be considered.

pseudo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(angel)

Watcher (angel)

...

Fallen angels

Main article: Fallen angel

In the Book of Enoch, the Watchers (Aramaic. ???????, iyrin), are angels dispatched to Earth to watch over the humans. They soon begin to lust for human women, and at the prodding of their leader Samyaza, they defect en masse to illicitly instruct and procreate among humanity. The offspring of these unions are the Nephilim, savage giants who pillage the earth and endanger humanity. Samyaza and associates further taught their human charges arts and technologies such as weaponry, cosmetics, mirrors, sorcery, and other techniques that would otherwise be discovered gradually over time by humans, not foisted upon them all at once. Eventually God allows a Great Flood to rid the earth of the Nephilim, but first sends Uriel to warn Noah so as not to eradicate the human race. While Genesis says that the Nephilim remained "on the earth" even after the Great Flood, Jude says that the Watchers themselves are bound "in the valleys of the Earth" until Judgment Day. (See Genesis 6:4 and Jude 1:6, respectively)

The chiefs of tens, listed in the Book of Enoch, are as follows:

“

7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs,Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. 8. These are their chiefs of tens." - R. H. Charles translation, The Book of the Watchers, Chapter VI.

”

The book of Enoch also lists leaders of the 200 fallen angels who married and commenced in unnatural union with human women, and who taught forbidden knowledge. Some are also listed in Book of Raziel (Sefer Raziel HaMalakh), the Zohar, and Jubilees.

...

Books of Enoch

In the Books of Enoch, the first Book of Enoch devotes much of its attention on the fall of the Watchers. The Second Book of Enoch addresses the Watchers (Gk. Grigori) who are in fifth heaven where the fall took place. The Third Book of Enoch gives attention to the unfallen Watchers. [22]

The use of the term "Watchers" is common in the Book of Enoch. The Book of the Watchers (1 Enoch 6-36) occurs in the Aramaic fragments with the phrase irin we-qadishin, "Watchers and Holy Ones", a reference to Aramaic Daniel. [23] The Aramaic irin "watchers" is rendered as "angel" (Greek angelos, Coptic malah) in the Greek and Ethiopian translations, although the usual Aramaic term for angel malakha does not occur in Aramaic Enoch. [24] The dating of this section of 1 Enoch is around 2nd-1st Century BCE. This book is based on one interpretation of the Sons of God passage in Genesis 6, according to which angels married with human females, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim. The term irin is primarily applied to disobedient Watchers who numbered a total of 200, and of whom their leaders are named, but equally Aramaic iri("watcher" singular) is also applied to the obedient archangels who chain them, such as Raphael (1 Enoch 22:6).

50

If solid proof were suddenly found that the Book of Enoch should be included in the standard Bible, would that pose a problem for the Jehovah's Witnesses in regards to Michael the Archangel as Jesus?

by I_love_Jeff in

if the book of enoch (elaborates and gives mention to 6 more archangels) suddenly became part of the bible due to solid evidence, how would this effect the shakey jw doctrine of michael the archangel as being jesus?

there are six other archangels mentioned in this book; could it be possible, if included in the jw bible, that one of the other archangels could be jesus?

would they excuse it somehow and simply stick with their implicit understanding of jesus=michael?.

pseudoxristos

If the Book of Enoch was a part of the Canon, the Watchtower would have to reconsider their position in several areas including the Michael=Jesus BS:

Immortality of the soul
Punishment in Hell
Sections of Hades for the righteous and sinners (The Rich man and Lazarus)

pseudo

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm

The Book of Enoch

XXII. Sheol, or the Underworld.

CHAPTER XXII.

1. And thence I went to another place, and he showed me in the west ⌈another⌉ great and high mountain [and] of hard rock.

2 And there was in it †four† hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. †How† smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.

3. Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period ⌈till the period appointed⌉, till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'

5. I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit. 6. Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit--whose is it whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?'

7. And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'

8. Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why as one separated from the other?'

9. And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made the spirits of the righteous, in which there as the bright spring of water. 10. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. 11. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who †curse† for ever, and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever. 12. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. 13. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors. they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence. 14. Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'

55

No atheist in A fox hole.

by jam in

first of all iam a agnostic.

i,am curious, you who are atheist.

what or how do you deal with a life or death situation.

pseudoxristos

Does it really matter if an Atheist breaks down in a such a situation?

Atheist, like everyone else are only human. The will to survive will make some people do crazy things. To point a finger and declare that someone really wasn't an Atheist because they broke down in such a situation is petty and unreasonably critical.

pseudo

14

Daniel 10:13 "....Michael one of the chief princes."

by I_love_Jeff in

daniel 10:13 describes michael as "one of the chief princes.

" this possibly indicates that there is more than one archangel, because it places michael on the same level as the other "chief princes.

jehovah's witnesses state, "well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel.

pseudoxristos

Blindnomore,

I can see how at first that Michael=Jesus seems to make sense, or is at least an interesting theory. I think the Watchtower uses bits of information like this to give Witnesses a sense of inside information that the majority of people are not aware of. Armed with a little knowledge (often incorrect), Witnesses believe that the must be on the right track. As we've all found out though, a little deeper study shows how ridiculous some of their beliefs are.

pseudo

14

Daniel 10:13 "....Michael one of the chief princes."

by I_love_Jeff in

daniel 10:13 describes michael as "one of the chief princes.

" this possibly indicates that there is more than one archangel, because it places michael on the same level as the other "chief princes.

jehovah's witnesses state, "well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel.

pseudoxristos

I did a quick search in the "1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament" and found the following:

Chief Priest can be found in Matthew 2:4. The Greek word is Aρχιερεις

Archangel can be found in Jude 1:9. The Greek word is Αρχαγγελος

Here is some more info. on the 7 Archangels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels

The earliest reference to a system of seven archangels as a group appears to be in Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) which is not part of the Jewish Canon but is prevalent in the Judeo tradition, where they are named as Gabriel , Michael , Raphael , Uriel , Raguel , Remiel and Saraqael . While this book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was explicitly quoted in the New Testament ( Letter of Jude 1:14-15) and by many of the early Church Fathers . The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical .

pseudo

14

Daniel 10:13 "....Michael one of the chief princes."

by I_love_Jeff in

daniel 10:13 describes michael as "one of the chief princes.

" this possibly indicates that there is more than one archangel, because it places michael on the same level as the other "chief princes.

jehovah's witnesses state, "well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel.

pseudoxristos

If I remember correctly, the Greek prefix is the same in the NT for Archangel and Chief Priest. There were many Chief Priests in the NT, so it is logical to assume that there could also be many Archangels.

Besides extra-biblical literature from that time and just prior to that time refer to up to7 archangels. Not to mention that the book of Daniel makes it clear that Michael was one of several archangels.

I’ve had Witnesses even admit to me that they didn’t believe the Michael-Jesus BS that the Watchtower teaches.

pseudo

195

Theistic Evolution

by cofty in

thoughtful christians including scientists like francis collins and kenneth miller accept the evidence for evolution unconditionally.

the only thing that distinguishes their understanding of life from the views of dawkins is that they believe god planned and started the process intentionally.. just a word about the subtle but vital distinction between "theistic evolution" and "intelligent design".... over-simplifications alert - intelligent design is creationism in disguise.

it is a modern twist on the "paley's watch" argument.

pseudoxristos

It seems that the Catholics have come up with a interesting solution to the problem of evolution and humans that have a soul.

The following is taken from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

Catholic Church and evolution

...

To reconcile general evolutionary theory with the origin of the human species, with a soul, the concept of " special transformism " was developed, according to which the first humans had evolved by Darwinist processes, up to the point where a soul was added by God to "pre-existent and living matter" (in the words of Pius XII 's Humani Generis ) to form the first fully human individuals; this would normally be considered to be at the point of conception. [20] Léroy's book endorsed this concept; what led to its rejection by the Congregation appears to have been his view that the human species was able to evolve without divine intervention to a fully human state, but lacking only a soul. The theologians felt that some immediate and particular divine intervention was also required to form the physical nature of humans, before the addition of a soul, even if this was worked on near-human hominids produced by evolutionary processes. [21]

...

pseudo

195

Theistic Evolution

by cofty in

thoughtful christians including scientists like francis collins and kenneth miller accept the evidence for evolution unconditionally.

the only thing that distinguishes their understanding of life from the views of dawkins is that they believe god planned and started the process intentionally.. just a word about the subtle but vital distinction between "theistic evolution" and "intelligent design".... over-simplifications alert - intelligent design is creationism in disguise.

it is a modern twist on the "paley's watch" argument.

pseudoxristos

I'm curious to know how those that believe in TE differentiate between the pre-human and human forms. Or in other words, at what point during evolution did we become human enough for God to decide that we were worthy of an afterlife.

pseudo

46

stake or cross?

by Tekel in

pseudoxristos

For amusement next time you talk to a JW, ask them what the Koine Greek for cross is.

Pseudo