Theistic Evolution

by cofty 195 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thoughtful christians including scientists like Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller accept the evidence for evolution unconditionally. The only thing that distinguishes their understanding of life from the views of Dawkins is that they believe god planned and started the process intentionally.

    Just a word about the subtle but vital distinction between "theistic evolution" and "Intelligent Design"...

    Over-simplifications alert - Intelligent design is creationism in disguise. It is a modern twist on the "Paley's watch" argument. Michael Behe et al assert that certain molecular systems like the blood-clotting cascade and the bacterial flagellum are too complex to have developed by unguided evolution. Therefore "god did it". ID is an intellectual parasite that contributes nothing to the advancement of knowledge.

    Theistic evolution accepts that evolution is a fact. Every living thing including humans descended from a common ancestor by an unguided process. God is not a tinkerer, evolution did not need his constant input to get over difficult hurdles. Unlike ID, theistic evolution looks for naturalistic explanation for scientific questions.

    ID is intellectually dishonest pseudoscience: theistic evolution is science PLUS the belief that god lies behind life giving it ultimate purpose and meaning.

    So I would be interested in discussing theistic evolution. I would also be interested in discussing ID on another thread.

    To get it started here are some of my problems with theistic evolution - I acknowledge that individually none of these are knockdown arguments against god.

    Evolution is a massively wasteful process. Over 95% of life forms that have ever lived have gone extinct, they got thrown on the scrapheap of failed designs.

    The line that leads to modern humans came within a hair's breadth of extinction on more than one occasion.

    Evolution is an effective way to maximise suffering. The majority of life forms have settled on a parasitic existence. Most of the rest are engaged in an endless "kill or be killed" struggle.

    Although suffering of creatures with limited consciousness can be easily dismissed there were millions of years of dismal struggle by the forebears of modern humans. Take the case of the famous fossil known as the Tang child. He became the type specimen of Australopithecus africanus, he lived in the Pliocene era and died aged just 3. Professor Lee Berger of Wits University's palaeoanthropology unit discovered that a bird of prey similar to the African crown hawk eagle had swooped down and seized the child with its large talons and beak, killing it immediately. He said the evidence was so convincing he could "prosecute the eagle killer in court". His skull had features of eagle damage on bone that was different from damage made by other predators like big cats. These included flaps of depressed bone on top of the skull, keyhole-shaped cuts in the side of the skulls made by the eagles' beaks, and puncture marks and ragged incisions in the base of the eye sockets, made when the eagles ripped out the eyes of the monkeys. A god must have observed suffering on an unimaginable scale for millions of years.

    Modern humans Homo sapiens have been around for approx 200 000 years. People with all of our capacity for thought, reflection, emotional and physical pain. For most of this time humans died young and mostly in pain from disease, bad teeth, childbirth, starvation, and predation. God's passive role in all of this has to give us pause.

    That's it for starters. The topic is the logical and moral implications of theistic evolution, your comments pro and con are welcome. Please play nice.

  • NOLAW
    NOLAW

    Nice reasoning. But please do not use labels like ID or TE. We'd better discuss if there is a God behind evolution or not and his role.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    Theistic evolution is the modern march of liberal theism to deism. Watch Richard Dawkin's conversation with Catholic Astronomer George Coyne on youtube to see what I mean. Essentially all of god's previous roles in shaping the universe are becoming either superflous, ethically dubious, or logically implausible to the extent that those who are at least moderately educated find it illogical to assume god actually formed anything in the universe by hand. Rather it is becoming more in vogue to simply assign him the properties of a deistic creator, one that simply got the ball rolling and then backed off, and then give him some culturally relevant anthropormorphised characteristics.

    "Ok god didn't form the earth, or make humans, or anything like that, he just knew it would happen and also he is love....and thinks gays shouldn't marry...but civil unions are cool with him....Also jesus is important...but maybe not literal....maybe...."

    Given time those things will fall to the way side one by one just like giving him credit for designing giraffes and other silly nonsense. Jesus will be a mythical character that none the less gave us important moral lessons, people will stop picking random moral lessons from the bible and insisting they be applied to a society that has outgrown those lessons, and finally God will just be a generic force that started the universe and gives a fuzzy feeling. George Coyne has pretty much gotten rid of all of the mythology aside from "god is love." Then only the most backwards will still rant about a conscious thinking god and his demands and desires for a temporary group of primates on some random spec of dust in the middle of no where. It will be relegated to deism, which honestly is just a poetic form of atheism. I welcome the slow march, and will continue to push it towards its inevitable conclusion.

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    Over 95% of life forms that have ever lived have gone extinct, they got thrown on the scrapheap of failed designs.

    All extinct life was successful in that it initally replaced something "inferior", something less suited to survive, less adaptable. Failed in that either they were replaced by a newer model or simply died out completely for one reason or another. Are humans really taller now than even a hundred years ago?

    Adaptation doesn't have an ultimate "design" and seems incongruent with any sort of creationist first cause. Like god didn't know...

    I do agree on the whole.

    0.02

  • cofty
    cofty

    NOLAW - There is a huge difference between "theistic evolution" and "Intelligent Design". Its important to understand this in order to have a discussion about it.

    Somebody who says something like, "I accept evolution up to a point but some things are just too complex to come about by chance" doesn't understand evolution. Christian scientists Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller would have very little common ground with them.

    In this thread I am more interested in the bigger challenge of somebody who says "I accept evolution completely but I think it was god's idea".

  • binadub
    binadub

    Cofty:

    This is a very time-consuming topic if you really get into genuine scientific knowledge and theory (in the popular sense as well as the scientific). And it generally gets muddled with arguments by too many pretending to know more than they do. If it can be--as you say--respectful, it can be an interesting discussion and people on both sides learn.

    I don't know how much I can contribute or how much I will try, but for starters I disagree with you that ID is creationism. I know that is a popular concept among skeptics, but from what I can discover about it, ID does not reject evolution nor common ancestry theory. What they challenge is that evolution occurred by "blind" random chance as opposed to occuring on purpose directed by a supreme intelligence. And imo they offer some very challenging scientific evidence. If you can refute it, that would be interesting.

    It is true that ID and "theistic evolutionists" like Collins have some disagreements about Darwinian evolution versus ID evolution, but the differences between ID theists and [what I'll call] Darwinian theists is very different than the differences between theist evolution and Creationists.

    Here is a link to ID's rebuttal to Collins specifically. It gives--I think--a little clearer picture of ID's precept:

    http://www.ideacenter.org/stuff/contentmgr/files/640ee5bfb01620f5eacd6675a51bc119/miscdocs/id101_franciscollinsrebuttal.pdf

    ~Binadub

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Evolution is an effective way to maximise suffering.

    It is. It is also an effective way to maximize the smarts of creatures. Without evolution, we don't get dolphins or chimps or you and me.

    Evolution is a massively wasteful process. Over 95% of life forms that have ever lived have gone extinct, they got thrown on the scrapheap of failed designs.

    It is. But "scrapheap" is a little harsh, I think. They were effective for a time but got obsolete because of counter-responses from the competiton.

    A god must have observed suffering on an unimaginable scale for millions of years.

    And observing still. Assad has done some really shocking things to the children of the opposition, to pick a curent example. He is not really an innovator in this field.

    God's passive role in all of this has to give us pause.

    Yes. You are speaking specifically of the horrors inflicted to and by non-human creatures. For these we cannot really simply ascribe evil as a function of free will and so on.

    So, evolution is brutal. But doesn't this amount to a complaint that God chose not to short-circuit the process? A sort of wish that the Genesis story were literally true and not a myth? I guess my question back is: is it really true that a good creator could only have created life (and the universe, really) without using a process as brutal as evolution? That the whole process of placing life in every possible place on the planet could only be justly implemented by herbivorous creature who gently pass from this life painlessly and in their sleep?

    Maybe it is better to start at a different point. Seeing all this suffering, couldn't one conclude that God is very much like Ares, who actually likes suffering and pain? It seems to me that the answer is yes. I think that an awful lot of societies actually embrace brutality as an expression of justice and the proper order of things (Aztec, for example, or the Huns or somebody). If you go back to Gilgamesh, say, there certainly isn't much of an idea that creation and the creator(s) are good, quite the opposite, I think.

  • simon17
    simon17

    Seeing all this suffering, couldn't one conclude that God is very much like Ares, who actually likes suffering and pain? It seems to me that the answer is yes.

    They could, but I think you could even still argue a 'good' god using evolution. Supposing this God cannot see into the future, which to me is a reasonable constraint, then evolution could be a hands-off way of experiementing. Science has done experiements which may cause pain to an animal but is ultimately aimed at understanding, curiosity, advancement or something reasonably noble. A god allowing evolutionary processes to start in various places in the galaxy and 'seeing how it goes' is somewhat plausible. One could even argue for mild intervention from God in the case of humans. Perhaps evolution is not nearly as rare as sentience, and so allowing for God to try to 'step in' once a species has gotten to that level is also arguable.

    Note, none of this is what I believe, but I can see the arguments being made

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    I'm curious to know how those that believe in TE differentiate between the pre-human and human forms. Or in other words, at what point during evolution did we become human enough for God to decide that we were worthy of an afterlife.

    pseudo

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Good question pseudosomething. Don't we have evidence of a conceptual leap: in one time, we don't do art but in another time, we do? Total speculation, but it seems to me that the abstract/artistic thinking is a key attribute. For example, I don't think homo ergaster, buried their dead, but neanderthal did. I know, there's, like, a million years difference between these guys, but you catch my drift.

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